TC5
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Posts posted by TC5
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Thank you for taking the time to answer all of my questions. It seems the release-dates of ALL are now perfect for all of my children!
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The outlining and narration in history combines history comprehension/review with building skills in writing. I've put together WWS, in part, because I hear from parents that they need more guidance and instruction in the "building skills in writing" part. So WWS will fill the skill-building function of your history work, but not the comprehension review.
Because of that, I wouldn't drop it entirely. But I would reduce it to once or twice a week, rather than three times, and I would be careful not to overdo the length.
Hope that makes sense; if not, let me know.
SWB
To clarify, each week, my child should do one outline, one notetaking session (list of facts), and one narration/essay in one content area--history or science or literature but not all three? Is that correct?
Thank you so much, Susan, for WWS. The TOC blew me away. I am very excited to use this with my children. Thank you also for answering our questions.
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Thank you so much, Susan! I'm excited to start using WWS soon with my 6th-grade son, but I haven't decided about ALL yet. I have a lot of questions that I hope you can answer, as I'm sure they could help others in their long-term planning, as well.
I've just emailed Pattie to request the ALL scope and sequence, and I will study that and compare it with Rod and Staff. But I'm hoping you might be willing to give a bit of general comparison of ALL and Rod and Staff.
My son used R&S 3-5 successfully, and I had intended to continue with it through high school as you'd recommended in the WTM. Now I'm not so sure. I don't think you'd have written ALL if R&S were all you thought it should be. Can you tell me what we would gain by switching to ALL?
I like the idea of being finished with grammar before high school, but is there any other reason to switch? Do both programs cover the same grammatical concepts? Will ALL 1-4 be equivalent to R&S 5-10? If so, I'm wondering how this is possible -- no writing lessons, of course, and less needless repetition in ALL? Is there still adequate review?
My oldest may have missed the boat on ALL because of timing, though maybe we could figure something out. What would you say to taking some time out from English grammar to focus on Latin and Spanish, so we can use ALL Levels 1-4 without a break starting in 7th grade, 2012? He wouldn't finish grammar any earlier than with Rod and Staff, but this plan has other benefits, including my not having to buy R&S for him and ALL for my younger boys.
Finally, if you could look with me at a long-term plan for my younger children, I'd be very grateful. My second son has just completed FLL 1 and 2. Even before I'd considered ALL, I had been thinking of skipping R&S 3 and starting up again next year with R&S 4 for 4th grade. I think grammar is very important, so I don't want to skimp, but if ALL truly contains all the grammar, can I just teach my children the definitions of the parts of speech as contained in FLL 1 and 2 and then wait for any formal grammar until ALL in 5th? Would that make ALL too challenging? Could I just start formal grammar with R&S 4 in 4th grade, since I already have it, and then go on to ALL in 5th?
Thank you again, Susan. We love all of your materials, and I hope we can fit in ALL.
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My 5th grader last year did MUS as his main program, which he could easily spend just four days on most weeks. The biggest challenge for me was to require anything the fifth day because I was exhausted (always, as I was pregnant and then had a newborn for all of 5th grade). I stopped scheduling days for math games because I realized we'd never play them. I considered them to be too optional even though I really love the idea. I have the RightStart card games set but rarely play any of them. (takes me too much time to figure out which games to play and how to play them) Same thing with Singapore's CWP and various other math supplements I wanted to use. As for cooking, my son loves to be creative and will rarely follow a recipe. We obviously need to do better at real-life math in 6th grade. :tongue_smilie:
The one thing my 5th-grader did do was think about money. He suddenly discovered he could buy things with money, so he spent a lot of time thinking about how he could earn it, how much he needed to buy certain things, how long it would take him to earn a certain amount if he did a job with a certain pay, how to sell his old things to his little brothers, etc. I'd say he has a good grasp on adding and subtracting money, at least.
The one thing we did manage to get through in 5th grade was Checkbook Math, as recommended in the WTM. It didn't take up a lot of time. I think he did three pages each week until it was done. I don't remember how many pages are in the book. I'm thinking 25 pages, maybe? It didn't take a lot of weeks to get through the book.
I'd forgotten about real-life math for 6th grade, so I haven't planned anything yet. Maybe more involvement at the grocery store and more cooking family meals from a recipe. Both would help me, so it SHOULDN'T be too hard. I hadn't thought of using LoF only once each week. I'd thought more often would be needed to keep the flow. I my look into this option, as well. Thanks for all who gave the idea.
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You can read a good deal of WTM at Amazon.com. You can see almost the entire section of Logic Stage science, history, and lit, along with resources. :D
Yippee! Thanks so much! We're away from home for a few months, and I was wishing recently that I could have brought the WTM. This is the next best thing!
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In 3rd and 4th grade, my son did the writing assignments, as well as some Writing Strands and WTM-style writing in content areas. In 5th grade, my son read the writing lessons but didn't do the assignments. He again did Writing Strands and content-area writing. For 6th grade, I expect he'll do the same, adding in WWS instead of Writing Strands.
My second son isn't as interested in writing so will probably not do the writing assignments in R&S. But he will continue with WWE and then WWS, as well as extra history, science, and literature writing.
If it weren't for WWE and WWS, we would probably use the R&S writing assignments and then try to do additional assignments using those skills in other subjects.
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I'm also debating this. We have R&S Eng 5 and we are almost done with it. When I looked through the sample of ALL, it seems like we did most of not all of it in R&S 5. However the sample only shows the first 5 lessons so it is hard to tell. :confused:
SWB or someone: Can we get some idea of the TOC? I'd just like to be able to compare the scope with R&S Eng 5.
Thanks!
Kathie
:iagree:
We've finished R&S 5 and I was planning to order R&S 6, but now I'm not sure. I'd love to see not only how ALL Level 1 compares with R&S 5 but the whole sequence: R&S 5-10 with ALL 1-4. I know that's asking a lot, but it would be very helpful in making choices! SWB's Writing Strands/IEW comparison of a few years ago was so helpful, and now I just need that for ALL/R&S!
Even if I don't use ALL for my 6th grader, I may use it for my younger boys. so now I am also wondering whether I really need to start them in formal grammar in 1st grade. I used FLL 1-2 for my second son, and he was going to use R&S 3 this year, but I've been thinking of skipping a year of grammar. Maybe with ALL, I could skip two years. And for the younger boys, no FLL or R&S and just teach basic parts of speech in 3rd-4th grade and then move into ALL. I just question again how all the grammar in the rigorous R&S can be compressed into 4 years of ALL. Maybe ALL moves very quickly and my boys really will need afew years of formal grammar first. :confused:
Is anyone beta testing ALL? If so, what do you know? :tongue_smilie:
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We do, but it's not the focus of our education. My oldest and I have been studying Latin for two years. This year, when we return to the United States in a few months, we plan to do 3 days of Latin and 3 of Spanish. I don't think he needs to rush through high-school Latin already, so we'll slow down and take advantage of our current experiences in Costa Rica to try to pick up Spanish and keep learning it. (My son's Latin is definitely helping him here.) I've been debating about whether my second son should start Latin this year (3rd grade). I don't think he's ready for LivelyLatin, and I don't really want to pay for another program, so he'll probably just focus on Spanish for now.
We study Latin for many reasons, but I still enjoyed the article linked by a PP. Just one comment about something in the article:
"Further, Latin only helps with the Romance languages, it won't help with the myriad other prevalent, spoken languages in world (Chinese, Russian, Arabic)."
This may be true, but I met a lady on an airplane recently who homeschooled her 4 children. Her son, who had studied Latin, later learned other non-Romance languages and said Latin definitely helped with that. It taught him how to learn a language, apparently. Still, probably learning any language would help you to learn another. Because I don't know any languages very well besides English, I chose to start with Latin. I hope learning how to learn a language while they are young will help them learn another later. (Of course, now we are unexpectedly in Costa Rica with the opportunity to learn how to learn a language in a very different way. :))
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I made a weekly lesson plan grid in Excel. 8.5x11 vertical. M-F dates across the top, subjects down the left side. Each weekend, I fill in the assignments for each subject. I print one for myself for my binder and an identical copy for my 10yo son. He keeps it in the front of his binder and crosses off assignments as he finishes them. I keep mine, but he recycles his at the end of the week. He knows what he has to do and now is much more independent because of it. He reminds me of subjects I have to help him with because he wants to finish.
At the beginning of his 5th-grade year (last year), I printed my copy of the schedule but gave him a blank one -- subjects and dates printed but no assignments. He had to fill in the assignments. I was doing this with him daily, so I could be sure he was actually looking at and understanding his assignments. But I soon felt this was a pointless waste of time for him. He just needed to see what to do and ask questions if needed. It was too hard for him to write as small as I could type, and we'd have to do this daily instead of him having a weeklong picture. (too much writing to do a week at once) With the whole week in front of him, he does much better with time management and even working ahead.
BTW, it took me months of trying free planners online and making my own before I discovered what I liked and needed. I have had to alter it a little bit as my boys get older and need their own scheduling space, but for now I can fit my four oldest boys on 2 facing pages. As the younger ones get older, I'll probably need to have 3+ pages or rethink the whole layout. Eventually, they may each need their own page, as the oldest has now. My long-winded point is that you may not love what you choose at first, so be prepared to make a change -- maybe very soon. That's one reason I made my own or used free ones until I knew what I needed. Now I sometimes am drawn to the ones for sale, but I also don't need those anymore -- for now. ;)
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No it's written for 4 days/week.
Thanks for the clarification! I guess I was thinking of ALL, which is for 3 days each week. I just got both samples and am mixing them up. :)
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THe samples of ALL are very misleading. I wish SWB would post the TOC. It very quickly got to conjugation of verbs, present tense, perfect tense, future perfect, etc. The review was quick and could easily be skipped. Unfortunately, SWB was reading the TOC to me at the RFWP mini-convention so I can't remember what all was covered.
This is helpful. Thank you.
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That is a lot of time. It's only meant to be used 3 days a week, though, right? This program looks amazing from the TOC and what I've seen of the sample. I'm excited to get started!
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Hmm. Maybe I could use ALL.
I just went back to SWB's blog to see if I had missed a TOC:
"This first levels, like First Language Lessons, is designed to be taught to the student by a parent or instructor. Once that foundation is laid, the next three levels will ask the student to work with much more independence."
So if I make the switch, can I do it with my oldest? He just completed R&S 5. Is there any information out there about whether he could skip to ALL Level 2 (after a year off of grammar waiting for it to be published?!) or needs to start with 5? If he can be finished with grammar in 4 years instead of 5 and not be bored to tears in ALL Level 1... Hmm. :confused:
ALL is at least looking more promising for all of my younger boys. But I do so like R&S. I really need to see ALL and stop thinking as I type. :D
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I created one in Word. There is an image of it in an old post on my blog and a link to the file on the right hand side of the page if you'd like to use it. HTH
I made a similar one in Photoshop Elements and saved it as a JPEG. I'd share the file, but I'm out of the country for a few months and don't have access to it -- PM me in November if you want it!
I print the timeline on one side, put it in a 3-ring binder, and after we've passed that time period, we put it in sheet protector and return it to the notebook. Protects the page but allows for changes. One-sided means we can take all the pages out and line them up for a more-visual representation if we want to.
Also, I bought the timeline figures from HITW, but my oldest son prefers to write rather than cut and paste. I have a feeling my second son will prefer to cut and paste. Third will probably cut, paste, and color. Don't know about the others yet, but they'll each get their own timeline book. :001_smile:
To clarify, the JPEG is just one page. I write in the dates with a black marker, so I just print oodles of that one page. I was going to measure time the HITW way, but then I decided to do my son's as explained in the WTM. This timeline works for both. So I wrote a date in the middle, such as 1830, and then my son wanted more detail, so under the smaller incremental lines, I added more dates, such as 1824, 1826, 1828, 1830, 1832, 1834, 1836, 1840. I think it was 2-year increments for this time period. It's at home. It was very quick and easy. I just wrote on a separate piece of paper first which dates would go on each page, so I wouldn't mess up the timeline.
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I am still trying to wrap my brain around whether R&S5 holds any information on outlining or writing paragraphs that won't be covered in WWS? dd10 is going to need outlining help this year, and I am thinking it's going to need to be more than a one level outline for her history and science as well as the classical composition stories she is working on. Lucinda... (see, I tracked you down on my original post), did you see value in the outlining skills taught the way R&S5 teach them, or after viewing WWS would that be just as well? I can't tell, not having R&S in front of me.
Quick answer: for 1-level outlines, use WWS. For 3-level, you can use R&S 5, but it might not be enough. With the practice it sounds like you'll give her in content areas, though, she should be fine.
My son did R&S 5 this past year, and it does have some outlining, but the outlining he did for history was WTM-style (1-level for 5th grade). I taught him that outside of R&S 5, which teaches 3-level, I think (I don't have the book with me right now). Having seen the sample for WWS, if it had been available last year, I would have let my son skip the R&S outlining lessons altogether (as it was, I just had him read them for familiarity, as he did with all the writing lessons. He read the lessons but didn't do the exercises.).
So my son can do 1-level outlines and probably could do 2- or 3-level, but I intend to have him work through WWS this year anyway and probably continue with 1-level outlines as long as WWS does, even though he'll be in 6th grade.
I just don't know about ALL. I love the ideas of all the grammar in 4 years and using literature to teach grammar and following SWB's ideas. But I don't think my sons or I could handle the scripted lessons. I recently finished FLL 1 and 2 with my second son, and we were thinking it should have been for K-1st grade because it seems geared for so young a child. As I was just looking at the ALL sample, it occurred to me that maybe it wasn't the content but was just that I don't like scripted programs with older children (my son is only 8). I can't imagine using a scripted grammar program through 8th or 9th grade. I have an easier time altering a program that isn't scripted. Besides, with several children,I don't know how I could fit in the time to do the scripted program. With R&S, my son reads the lesson, and I join him for a few minutes to do the exercises orally. If he has any problems, then I teach it, but almost always he understands on his own. So we'll probably stick with Rod and Staff. Maybe I just won't make my younger boys start grammar in first grade!
Another question for helping decide whether to switch from R&S to ALL...
I know R&S has a LOT of review and extra practice (sometimes a very good thing -- easier to skip exercises than to make up more), but how did SWB do it? How can she fit all the grammar (still 5-6 years worth of R&S if you don't start until grade 5 or 6 and go through their last book, English 10) in just 4 years? Maybe because R&S also includes writing, and that's not in ALL? Is ALL really going to be a complete grammar program? I think I trust SWB on this, but has anyone seen a table of contents or scope and sequence or comparison to Rod and Staff?
Good luck, everyone, in deciding this one! Two good choices.
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I am not familiar with those choices, but I just finished Elemental Science's Chemistry for the Grammar Stage with my 2nd and 5th grade sons. This was the first time through chemistry for us, so maybe that's why it was good for a 5th-grader, but it covered a lot and was fun. My older son just does a bit more reading, research, and writing. We're going to do Physics for the Grammar Stage next.
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Very helpful! Thank you for sharing this.
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These guides all look good! The FAQ on the Polar Studies site gives more information, but I would like to see more. Has anyone else seen any of the books?
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My sister just moved to Utah, so seeing people here from Provo makes me miss her even more! She was in WA, and I'm in CA, so it's not like we were close, but we've been wanting to visit. I just had a baby 5 weeks ago, and she's due next Saturday. We are still hoping to visit her next month if we can fit it in before we go to Costa Rica for a few months for my husband's job. She and her husband just put in an offer on a house in Pleasant Hill or Pleasant View ?? just north of Ogden. She homeschools, too, but I don't think she's found other homeschoolers there yet.
On another topic -- I use some religious materials, and it has opened up lots of discussions and more research for us. I've seen a lot of curriculum I wouldn't want to use, though, because of the religious tone. We've enjoyed Mystery of History Vol. 1 (then we switched to SOTW for Year 2), Exploring Creation through Astronomy, R&S English, A Child's Geography: Explore His Earth.
Teonei
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We "start" together with a prayer and devotional (not our actual scripture reading, which we do at night with my husband) and memory work (memorizing poems, scriptures, and facts and reciting/reviewing previously memorized items). We occasionally do the pledge of allegiance, try to sing a hymn, maybe read a poem.
My 10yo also has started getting started on his schoolwork early, so this devotional often comes later in the day. We therefore don't have a consistent first thing, although I feel better when we do.
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Right now, I have K, 2nd, and 5th, and we started homeschooling when my oldest was in 3rd. He started with Rod and Staff 3 and no FLL. He quickly went through WWE 1-4 last year and now does most of his writing WTM-style but also uses Writing Strands 3. He doesn't do the R&S writing exercises this year, but I do have him read those lessons. He's done very well with this, but he is also a strong writer. He'll continue with Writing Strands 4 and 5 in 6th grade. My 2nd son will do less writing for now, but he is doing really well with WWE 2.
The others, who started homeschooling from the beginning, are on this plan:
Grade 1: FLL 1 and WWE 1
Grade 2: FLL 2 and WWE 2
Grade 3: R&S 3 (may take a year off of grammar or do only part of the book, especially if he starts Latin in 3rd) and WWE 3
Grade 4: R&S 4 and WWE 4
Grade 5, and so on: R&S 5, and so on, and WTM writing
If another of my sons can handle more writing, I will add in Writing Strands 3 as early as 3rd grade. Otherwise, we'll just proceed with WTM suggestions for 5th grade (maybe SWB's Writing With Skill by the time my second is in 5th grade).
So far, we have done R&S orally, but I will probably have my oldest write for R&S 6 so I have more time for the youngers. Still, doing the lessons orally requires only about 5-10 minutes from me each day, so it's not a big deal. FLL 1 and 2 are all oral and quick. R&S is written for a classroom, so we skip the oral drill (or my son does it alone for practice before we do the written work together out loud) and sometimes skip some of the exercises. My son appreciates the professional quality of this program.
No prep time required for any of these -- except occasionally for FLL you'll have to gather index cards or an envelope or post cards and stamps. But you have a day or more notice in the lessons to get ready.
FLL is a gentle yet thorough introduction to grammar. Definitely a better foundation than my oldest got in public school grades 1-2. We do skip most of the copywork, dictation, and narration because we get that in WWE and in history and science. (We have the older version, with FLL 1 and 2 in one book. I believe it was written before WWE and has some elements in it to lead the student toward what WWE does well. The newer version of FLL may be different.) I never looked at FLL 3, but I've been very happy with Rod and Staff for grammar. It is also quite good for writing, and I plan to have my second son do as much of that as he can rather than introduce another writing program. WWE is of course a writing program and has very little grammar. What little it does have is reinforcement of things probably learned elsewhere, and we frequently skip it.
I don't have any experience with CLE.
I hope this makes sense. My baby is calling, so I can't go back to check...
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I THINK I'm going to relax our history schedule and not worry about how long it takes to finish SOTW 3 and 4. We finished our 6-week study of the founding of the U.S. before we took a break for our new baby, which brings us up to SOTW 3 ch. 24 when we resume schoolwork again next week. I was going to try to rush us through to finish SOTW 3 before we go to Costa Rica in July for 2-4 months for my husband's business trip. But there are so many good topics to cover still! So I am trying to tell myself that we can push SOTW 4 into the 2012-13 year. If I can make myself believe that, schoolwork will be simpler.
Also, as I was reminded by posts in this thread, I really needed to get some sort of chore system here to get some help. I had an idea Sunday afternoon, and although it's been implemented for only two days, and we haven't done school these two days (except some assigned reading), it is working wonders!
This is the basic idea:
My children are supposed to do four Daily tasks each day (morning routine, dishes, tidy bedroom, bedtime routine). They must also do 1 regular chore and 2 small chores each day and 1 major chore each week. I made a simple sign with suggested chores for each category, and my boys get to choose whatever they want. My husband and I have been reminding them to please do what would most bless the family, but so far they are free to choose any chore they want.
I was shocked when my 10yo chose to clean a bathroom yesterday for his regular chore. My 8yo and 5yo washed windows and mirrors throughout the house. That was supposed to be a small chore -- just a couple of windows, but they had so much fun they kept going. They all wanted to do yardwork for their major chore, but it's been raining, so they haven't done that one yet. Today, my 5yo cleaned up the family room and vacuumed it, and my 8yo cleaned and vacuumed the rest of the downstairs (regular chores). They folded and put away laundry for small chores. Even the 3yo had fun handwashing pots and pans.
My 10yo gets his chores done first thing in the morning. Our house is much improved already, and I am seeing that I will need to list additional chores on the sign to be sure they don't run out of things to do (although, I don't mind having the family room cleaned and vacuumed every day)!
This is definitely simplifying my life and reducing my stress as I spend most of my time nursing and otherwise caring for a newborn.
Thank you for this thread. I'm finding lots of good ideas.
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This week I taught my two oldest how to clean the house. They have a chore list... sweep, vacuum, load the dishwasher, straighten up every room...
I unload and clean off kitchen counters and mop. They are capable of doing everything else.... its so wonderful.
I get to have time to spend with my two neglected youngers while they clean and hubby comes home to a spotless home, a rested wife, and children that feel big and responsible (they actually like it... at least this week.)
AND when we wake up, school gets started on time because everything is clean.
It's been a huge time saver.
You are an inspiration to me! If your little ones can do this, mine certainly should be able to more than they do now. I've been expecting more without really taking the time to teach and implement structure. I need this to be our focus this week, as we had already planned to take the week off to adjust to having a new baby (he was born Wednesday night). Now that I am more mobile than I had been in 8 months, we can really get something done this week!
My boys already do dishes and take out the garbage regularly, but everything else is by my request. I need a rotating system that works, and I need to teach them to clean the bathrooms. That would relieve so much of my stress and allow me to have more fun with all of the children. It looks like I've got some planning to do!
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Hmmm... So you're going to have them do their unfinished work in the evenings? As a little heads up- Be prepared!!! I tried the same thing.
So, ya get tired of spending all day having school be dragged out to lengths unknow before. You place a time limit on how long they should take (at longest of course) to do each assignment.
What happens? They STILL stretch it to the max and then come back later on, when you call them in to complete their work, and what? Now you have your entire evening (and day) devoted to schooling! :rant:
okay, so I still get upset about it! Sorry!! :blushing:
Just wanted you to have all your bases covered and guns a blazin! :D
I'm dealing with this now, but not because I've set time limits or assigned homework. I've just allowed my 10yo more "independence" and freedom as to when he can do his work. He likes to get everything done the day before I've scheduled it, sometimes doing two days worth of work at once. That's great until he asks me to help here and there all morning, afternoon, evening, past his bedtime, Saturdays... I've tried to set limits on when I'm available, but I also recognize that I've had more time in the mornings lately to work with my younger children because my 10yo prefers to do his work after dinner. We need to sort this scheduling issue out to simplify the next school year.
Differences in FLL 3 and 4?
in K-8 Curriculum Board
Posted
What about diagramming? Will the learning curve be too great if we skip FLL 3 and go to 4?
How far does the diagramming get in FLL 3, and where does it start in FLL 4? I used R&S 3-5 with my first son. Is FLL diagramming similar?