As far as the math facts go..... He does OK (not great) with math facts. But it has (and is taking) a ton of drill.

Thanks Merry! I am going to see if I can find a copy of that book locally. Thanks for your reply. Yes, his reading abilities seem way out of line with his other academic subjects. Even spelling which is surprising to me. He is using AAS level 2 and picks it up easily. I would assume that someone who struggles with reading would also struggle with spelling, but that isn't the case with him. I am often left scratching my head wondering, "How can you spell that word but not be able to read it?" A lot of time when he reads the wrong word, I have him spell the correct word and we point out the differences between the sounds he read vs. what is on the page. He also does great with math. And even though he is barely reading, he does great with understanding of grammar and other language skills. (We had been doing copywork and narration using FLL and WWE with our All About Reading readers....but I stopped and decided to focus on JUST learning to read for awhile.) He also does great in content subjects. He can narrate like nobody's business in articulate, wonderfully constructed sentences...and has a vocabulary that is very good. He also does not have any speech issues. (I know some kids with reading issues have underlying speech and hearing issues.) He actually started talking very early and hasn't stopped. His receptive language skills also seem really good to me. So (with the exception of reading) school and learning seem to come easy for him. We did take him to a COVD doctor and she said that he was having tracking issues. SO, I thought that perhaps our problem was solved. (He was just ahving problems SEEING what he was reading.) We paid a ridiculous amount in vision therapy and did countless hours of homework with him at home. I saw no change. Perhaps it would work better when he was older or something. BUT, I kind of wonder if I was taken by that doctor/clinic. Do they diagnose every kid who comes in with vision problems?? Thanks for your gentle reminder. Just being honest, ONE THING that causes me to stress his 'falling behind' grade level is the fact that I may not be able to homeschool forever. (I'm just sort of thinking 'out loud' now about the pressure I put on myself.) I hope and pray that I will be able to homeschool for a long time, but our family situation may not allow that. And I always have that in the back of my mind when teaching my kids. It is a long story, but if I have to go back to work, I will probably be forced to send him to public school. In other words, I may not have the luxury of just keeping him home and allowing him to learn to read until the 5th grade. If I had to send him to school next year, it would be REALLY bad based on what they expect of kids locally. I guess I feel like I need to seize hold of my current opportunity to work one on one with him while I have it. So long story short, it isn't my long term curriculum plans that make me feel like I am set to some time table. It is the fact that I want to make the best use of my time at home wit him while I have it. I get that you can't *make* a child learn to read any more than I can *make* my baby grow teeth or learn to walk. However, if there IS something I can do to help him at home, I want to make sure I am doing it. Like I said, I am not sure if my son has some type of learning disability or not. It may just be that the phonics curriculum we were using before started some bad habits in him. For example, in AAR you practice word cards until they are mastered. And i think the concept of 'mastering' word cards may have started to inadvertently encourage him to start to read the words by 'sight' instead of looking at the individual phonograms in the words. (If you have to slowly sound out the word, it isn't mastered according to AAR. So, I think he started memorizing the shape of the words instead of looking at the individual phonograms in a word.) SO--I am hoping the notched card thing in dancing bears might help with that. (That is why I am specifically asking about that program.) BUT, if we don't make some traction soon, I will take your advice and bring him to some type of specialist. Like you said, I dont' want him to label himself as a bad reader or struggle through another year. I think that his phonetic awareness is VERY good. I think that AAR has been very good in that regard. It is the fact that his blending seems to take him a very long time and that he *has* to blend every word (unless he guesses) that slows him down....not that he doesn't understand the 'sounds' in the words. To answer your question about CVC words, he can decode CVC words correctly every time. (he has the ability if I back him up and have him try again.) BUT, he never seems to learn that 'can' is can without having to say /c/ /a/ /n/. So he has to sound those words out eveyrtime, unless he sometimes tries to speed up the process by guessing. Another strange thing I have noticed is that longer words like "student" are easier for him than "cat". Perhaps because they have a more definite shape and he is reading by sight? I don't know. Just a theory. I am going to give Rachel's idea a try and have a blending boot camp and see if his choppy blending is causing problems. I can probably do that with letter tiles and some fluency pages...that way I don't have to buy phonics pathways. He also doesn't seem to recognize groupings of letters make a similar sound. ("there" sounds like "where" for example). Even when I point out and we play some 'change the word' games with letter tiles he doesn't pick up on this naturally. So I am thinking a more synthetic phonics program might help with that skill?? I don't know. I have been looking at samples of both DB A and DB fast track....and I really think that he would do fine in fast track too. I am thinking that DB A seems to go a bit slower than he needs. (Of course, it is so hard to tell unless you try it...you know?) He is already reading a daily fluency page from AAR. (And have you seen how LONG those fluency pages are!?) Plus, doing word card flash cards daily, etc. So a 10 minute fast track session is going to seem like a relief to him. Plus, like I said, he seems to be able to learn new phonograms quickly and apply that knowledge. So I am *thinking* fast track might be OK for him. Especially since a lot of the concepts will be further review of the stuff he has already learned in AAR 2. I've also been looking at Apples and Pears too. I like the look of levels B and on....but the tracing in level A kind of drives me batty because of the weird font. So I am thinking we are going to stick with AAS 2 until he can test out of tracing parts of Apple and Pears A. Then I might re-evaluate our spelling based on how he is dong.

Thanks for the support. It means a lot. Yes! He does blend in a choppy manner. He actually sort of skips step 2 and does this: 1st: /c/ /aaaaaaaaaaaaa/ /n/ 2nd: can He draws out the vowel or vowel team, but the rest of the letters are disconnected.

YES! That is exactly what I was also trying to articulate. That you for saying that. And it isn't just the fluency sheets. (Because one could easily just adapt and do part of the fluency sheet.) Look at the amount of text in the level 2 reader samples: (http://www.allaboutlearningpress.com/content/samples/AAR-L2-QueenBee-2ndEd-Sample.pdf) That is a lot of text...and the sentences are complicated enough that you really have to have that fluency down or comprehension is effected! Again, I'm not trying to knock AAR. I believe they are a good company and the employees are all SO very caring and thoughtful. I also think the program *can* and *will* work for lots of children. I'm just saying that unless you have a natural reader on your hands, they *may* not do well with the program. It may take them years to learn some basic phonics skills because they can't leap ahead in fluency. I think AAR probably works best for the type of children who can sound out a word once or twice and then just know it. If you have a child like that, you will probably be able to use and like AAR as is without adding anything. If you don't have a child who can do that, you may have to be inventive and find creative ways to build in enough practice that fluency is achieved so you can move on and learn the phonics. I haven't found any tools or curricula which can do this because most things don't line up with the AAR teaching sequence. OR, you might just have to go through the learning to read process at a snails pace. (That is what we did to make it work.)

We loved (LOVED!) AAR Pre-level 1. I will for sure use it again with my next 'batch' of kids coming up. We also did AAR level 1 and half of AAR level 2. Levels 1 and 2 are not as fun as the pre-level 1 at all. I originally purchased AAR because I thought it was the 'fun' way to teach your kids to read. It is probably more fun than some programs, but in hindsight, I would not describe our AAR lessons as fun anymore. To be fair.... You can buy a supplement to use the zebra puppet with, but my kids did not like the supplement. It just wasn't the same as the pre-level. They also did not like the 'games' and activities that came with level 1 and 2 activity books. (Most kids do....mine just didn't like the games at all. So we skipped them or I made them er.....strongly encouraged them to play the games when they needed more practice.) That basically meant our reading lessons consisted of magnet tiles, the word cards, the fluency sheets, and the readers for us to use to teach reading. I will say that the readers are top notch. Super cute. And the blending procedures in AAR are top notch. (Say, your child knows all of the letter sounds but doesn't know how to blend them into words. The instructions in AAR level 1 are really great for teaching that.) The people who work at AAR are also very nice and helpful and seem to generally care about their customers. That being said, I probably won't use AAR with my other kids. I think AAR works great if you have a natural reader who catches on to concepts very fast. (The type of child who is going to be able to zoom through all of the levels of AAR by the end of first or second grade.) The reason I say this is that the order they introduce the phonograms is a bit different than most reading programs. They also introduce these phonograms very slowly and systematically. They work on developing fluency and automaticy in reading as you learn. What does that mean? It means that if you have the type of child who doesn't zoom through learning to read, you need to be able to commit the next 4 school years to learning to read. (It takes us about one entire school year to complete a level working everyday for about 20-30 minutes. Like I said, some kids are able to zoom through them much quicker.) If you DO have a child who zooms through learning to read, that also means that you may be shelling out close to $400 in reading curriculum alone the first year of school in order to teach them to read. And since AAR does not introduce some very common phonograms until level 4, that means your child will not be able to decode some very common, high frequency words until they have gotten through all 4 levels. So that means that using AAR alone, your child might not be able to read "The Cat in the Hat" (for example) until they have completed level 4 if you use nothing by AAR to teach reading. NOW---to be fair, your child will be able to decode high school school level books as well by the end of level 4. BUT, my point is ---you need to be BRAVE enough to just trust in the AAR method for all 4 levels. Trust me....that is easier said than done. If your children don't zoom through all of the AAR levels in the early grades, it may mean that your children will be reading at a significantly 'lower level' than their public or private schooled peers until you finish all 4 levels of AAR. That can really rock your self confidence as a homeschooler, and it could potentially affect your child's self confidence if they are the type to compare themselves to other children. If you are someone who has to undergo standarized testing, you may want to consider that your children may also struggle with testing. Again, that shouldn't be a long term problem if you stick it out with AAR....just something to factor in to your decision. I used AAR to teach my kids to read because everyone said it was the best. I also wanted somethng fun. Hind sight 20/20, I probably should have worried less about fun and just used whatever was most efficient to get them reading as soon as possible. I think the "real" fun with learning to read is being able to pick up a good story and enjoy it. So (hindsight 20/20) I wish I would have used whatever program could have accomplished that goal instead of a big, flashy curricula with a bunch of bells and whistles.

Thanks for your reply. This will not be our only reading program or the first time I have tried to teach him to read. Many have read our story in other threads, but we have actually spent the past 3 years using All About Reading. He has made progress, but it is VERY slow. (We have gone through Pre-Level 1, AAR 1, and are on lesson 22 of level 2.) We have both grown to dread the AAR fluency sheets. We are tired of them and could use a change. From time to time, when I get really frustrated with AAR I have jumped ship and tried ETC, OPGTR, 100 ez lessons, MCP phonics, IEW PAL, and some others. But I always end up back with AAR because we own it and everyone says it is 'one of the best' programs out there. So, long story short, he is very capable of blending and 'sounding out' words. His main problem is that he attempts to guess words instead of using some of the strategies I have taught him to decode them. To answer your other question, yes, I do suspect that he has some type of learning disability. My son was officially diagnosed with Sensory Processing Disorder. And I do suspect that he might have some other type of learning disability when it comes to reading....I just can't figure out what. (That is the frustrating part for me.) We also had his vision checked and hearing checked. He took 8 blocks of vision therapy, but we have not noticed a difference with helping him learn to read. (I sort of feel like I was taken by that doctor.) I know everyone always says this about their kids.....but this little boy is EXTREMELY intelligent. :) He has a memory like a steal trap and is an extremely deep thinker. But he has been a struggling reader for awhile now. If I introduce a phonics concept to him, he remembers it instantly and can always use the skill to decode a word when prompted. His problem is that (for whatever reason) he has never been able to develop automaticy with his decoding. To give you an example, he has been reading CVC words since he was 4...but he must sound out the word 'can' everytime he sees it. Even though he has probably been exposed to that word hundreds (if not thousands) of times. That frustrates him, so he sometimes attempts to guess at words instead of taking the time to slowly sound each letter out. (He is trying to speed up his reading.) The other day, he was not able to recognize and read his last name. I know that our last name doesn't appear in his readers. BUT, he writes his full name and sees this word several times per day for years. So, yes, there is *something* going on....I just don't know what. I have reached out to the All About Reading support team many times. They seem to say that I just need to go slower and do more review. So we took almost 2 years to do level 1 of AAR. We started his K year and continued on to his first grade year. Going so slowly, doing extra review, then reviewing again, then reviewing again, then slowing down and reviewing again. Then we moved on to AAR 2 and started doing the same thing. People keep telling me, "Maybe he isn't old enough" and "Someday it will just click". So I have been trying to be patient...but he will be 8 in November. I guess my instincts are telling me that sitting back and just waiting for the magic "click" moment isn't what he needs. I feel like he might need a new strategy or some more help. I don't know if dancing bears or "I see sam" readers are the answer........but if nothing else they will get us out of the AAR Fluency Sheet / Word Flash Card rut......right? I am open to any and all suggestions on things to try or do. My DH and I decided that we are going to attempt some new methods with him and try to find the asnwer ourselves. If we are unable to find the answer ourselves, we will probably take him to some type of 'expert' this year. I am just reluctant to do that YET, because I dont' want him to label himself as a bad reader. I'm trying to preserve his confidence in the area. The good news is, he likes to read and says it is his favorite subject. And he loves books in general. He can listen to me read all day long. So I would like to maintain that positive outlook on learning to read whatever I do.

This might be a dumb question, but I just want to verify that the dancing bears / apples and pears curricula is updated with American spelling when you order in the US. Can anyone confirm?

Rachel, Thanks so much for your reply! I really like how fun learning to read looks with those little "I See Sam" books. I remember learning to read being a FUN process. I purchased AAR (originally) because it looked like the fun program. AAR Pre-Level 1 was loads of fun. BUT the fluency sheets in the subsequent levels of AAR are pure drudgery....and those seem to be what the program revolves around. (My children do not like the games in the activity book and ask to skip them. So all we are left with are word cards to review and never ending fluency sheets.) I do like the AAR readers though. But those "I See Sam" books look really cute AND fun. I looked at the scope and sequence, and it looks like my kids would be in the BR3 book set. I'm trying to figure out the cheapest way to get my hands on the books. I searched ebay, homeschool classified, etc. so that I could buy them used, but I didn't have any luck. Any tips on where to purchase them used? What should I search for? "I See Sam Readers"?

Is anyone here using Apples and Pears for spelling? If so, does the font used bother your children? http://www.soundfoundationsbooks.co.uk/ I've read all sorts of good things about the program. However, looking at samples the font they use is very different than how I taught my children to write. (We used a hwt / zaner blosser font. Their font almost looks like d'nealian or something similar.) Does this cause problems with your children? If you taught them to form letters differently, Are they able to switch back and forth? They seem to use a lot of tracing and things like that as a teaching method, so I worry their unique font might throw my kids a curve ball. ETA: I guess it is more Level A that uses tracing as a teaching method.

How long has it taken your DD to go through a level? My concern is that if I start level A now (and each level takes a full year) that puts him still learning to read in 5th grade. I know you can't rush things like learning to read. BUT it really scares me that he is going to fall terribly behind because I keep fiddling around with finding a reading program.

He already knows ee, sh, th, ck, ch, and CVCe words. (Plus several others not listed: wh, nk, and ng for example.) He has not yet been taught ar, or, ay, oy ai, oi, or oa words. (Again, those aren't introduced until later in the AAR program.) Looking at the samples, the fast track LOOKS like it might work for him. But, it is so hard to tell how much practice he is going to need without trying it first, you know?

Hi There, I asked this question in another thread, but it was sort of buried at the bottom. So I am cross posting my question in its 'own' thread hoping the title might get more attention from those who have used the Dancing Bears program. :) Background: I have a son who is 7 (turns 8 in November). In all other subjects except for reading, he is working at a 2nd grade level. If I give him a reading test, he measures at the beginning of first grade. He is not yet able to read 'typical' first grader readers like Green Eggs and Ham, Go Dog Go, etc. (Although he practically has the book memorized from hearing me read it! :) ) I also have a daughter who is 6. She is in first grade and reading at the same level as my son. I give them their reading lessons separately, but they tend to be working at almost the exact pace when it comes to learning to read. We have been using All About Reading daily for the past 2-3 years. We have completed pre-level 1, level 1, and are 1/4 of the way through level 2. (There are 4 levels all together.) I (very) briefly tried ETC, IEW PAL, Sonlight LA, MCP Plaid Phonics, OPGTR, and 100EZ lessons in the past when I have periodically started to worry about his lack of progress. Hindsight 20/20---I have realized that those products were more distractions than anything else, and didn't really do anything magic. So I've mostly stuck with AAR. I have decided to devote our summer to getting my son reading at grade level...or at least make as much progress in that area as possible. We typically school year round, but we are going to drop almost everything else so they can focus on reading. So I have been trying to come up with a plan that will best utilize our time from now until September. (See my previous post.) The good news is.....My son LOVES books. LOVES them. I know that he would be really happy if I could somehow find a way to get him up and reading REAL books. That would be so motivating for him. --------- NOW onto my question..... This morning I have been trying to research some remedial reading programs. (Is that what I need to be looking at by this age??) I have heard a number of people mention dancing bears. I looked at the samples online, and it does look promising. Of course, I am reluctant to curriculum hop again. (That would just mean less progress made in AAR.) On the other hand, perhaps DB introducing things at a faster rate which would get him reading quicker. (He does seem to catch on to phonetic concepts quickly.) If I used Dancing Bears, what would you suggest I order? Fast Track? Book A? The Fast Track book says it is for students within my son's age range. BUT it also says that if you child can not read the sentence: "Our teacher is waiting for us in the hall" you should order book A. (My son cannot read that sentence because those phongrams have not been introduced in AAR yet.) However, the samples online look like they cover all of the phonograms in that sentence. So I am a bit confused. Also, are the Dancing bears books consumable? Could I use the same book with my daughter? Or would they each need one? Finally, is the only thing you need the Dancing bears book? Do they have everything you need in those books (readers, flashcards, etc.)?

Thanks again for your reply. So I have determined that my 7 (turns 8 in November) is not reading up to grade level. In fact, according to all of the placement tests he is reading like a first grader at the very beginning of the year. This matches up with the actual books he can read, although he can decode some longer words not on this test. (This despite working on learning to read EVERY day for 2-3 years.) Again, I think this has to do with the way things are introduced in AAR. I am REALLY scared to curriculum hop. What if I try something new and it doesn't work? Then we are just further behind? NONETHELESS, your post has been echoing in my mind these past few days. Does anyone have any experience with the remedial reading programs such as Dancing Bears, Reading Reflex, or Abecedarian? I've spent some time looking at dancing bears this morning. It seems to promise the moon and the stars....as does every other reading program..... Does anyone have any experience using dancing bears with a remedial reader? If so, what should I order? (IF I order?) Fast track? Book A? etc.

I'm not really sure I understand Memoria Press. I look at their complete grade packages and don't see any history study. Am I missing something?

My son is asleep right now, but I will have them take that test tomorrow just to get a baseline. I am pretty sure that my 2nd grader would score below grade level right now. (Based on looking at the test you linked to.) I feel like his reading is a year or more behind most kids his age. That might be because that test seems to have a lot of high-frequency words that haven't been covered in AAR yet. That is why I really think it is a good idea to focus the summer on getting him 'caught up'. (Trying not to freak out as a homeschool mama as I write this! He is my oldest child and I so badly don't want my homeschool 'experiment' to mess him up....you know? I really don't want to fail at this) He is not yet able to read books that many first graders are reading. For example, he can't yet read the sonlight first grade readers yet. (A Fly Went By, Put me in the zoo, etc.) AAR just doesn't cover some of those phonetic rules used in those simple books until levels 3 (or maybe even 4 yet which isn't out.) However, he can accurately decode some longer multi-slyable words that would be considered a much higher reading level than first grade. (As long as they use phonetic concepts he has been taught.) Thanks for your advice about not using early readers from the library. You are probably right. That might encourage him to start guessing at the words. Right? Also, what is the barton test you speak of? Thanks again!

I like your idea of setting an ending time for the day...and looping subjects. Thanks!

I wanted to thank everyone again for your responses! Just as an update: This morning we got through an entire AAR lesson in one sitting....and it worked great. The kids didn't put up too much of a fuss or seem overly tired at all! I think they had just gotten in the habit of stopping their fluency sheet when they got to a section break. (Not because they were too tired, but it was just habit.) I gently encouraged them to keep trying. And they did great. I did try to play a game with them in the afternoon to work on fluency more. (As suggested by Merry.) I cut up the fluency sheet and they had to draw a strip of paper and read it. Then they were aloud to move ahead as many spaces as there were words. (we played this on their shoots and ladders board.) They humored me and played it for 5 minutes or so...but they didn't like the game. (It figures! They always surprise me!) So I asked if they would rather read a book. They said yes, so that is what we did. :) SO NOW I am thinking of doing this as a plan: 1) Spend 20 minutes with each kid in the morning doing just the phonics part of AAR. (Teach new concept, review word/sound cards, work on fluency sheets, etc.) 2) In the afternoon, have them each read a story to me of their choosing. We should have a lot of AAR reader stories 'built up' by then if I allow them to move through the phonic concepts a bit quicker. (Especially since I like them to read them several times.) And I can also get some other books from the library if I need to. What do you think? Too much? Just enough? See how it goes? (Thanks again for helping me talk this out.)

Can anyone suggest a good list of readers or real books we could work through?

Right now I just have them reading their AAR readers and Elephant and Piggie Books. I don't know if that is 'right' or 'wrong'. I've had trouble finding other readers where everything has been taught.

Hi Everyone, I have two children I am teaching to read. After thinking things through in another thread :) I have decided to work mainly on getting them to read fluently this summer. (Of course I will work at their own pace...but reading is going to be my top priority this summer.) My oldest is 7.5 and he is headed into 2nd grade (if you go by age alone.) My middle child is 6 and she is headed into 1st grade (if you go by age alone.) If you were going to work on getting those children reading fluently, what would you use and how would you do it? Background: Currently, we are in lesson 17 of All About Reading level 2. (There are 51 lessons in level 2. There are FOUR levels of AAR total before they are 'finished' with learning to read. :) ) They currently know.... Short and Long vowel sounds All the consonant sounds Two and Three consonant blends at the beginning and ending of words Long Vowel, Silent E words Consonant teams (th, sh, ch, ph, wh, ng, nk) A few vowel teams (ee, ea, oa, oo, ow) how to decode multisyllable words (quicksand, sudden, selfish, etc.) My children both seem to just 'get' a new phonogram when I teach it to them with very little review. They can also apply it to words and decode it after seeing it a few times. It does take them awhile to develop automaticy with words. (In other words, they can always decode a word successfully, but they can't recognize it automatically until they have seen it a million times...at least it feels like a million times to me.) And that causes us to make slow progress through the AAR levels since you are suppose to master things before moving on. (Level 1 took us an entire year. ) ---------- SO--my question is: What is the best way to get my kids up and reading fluently this summer? Do you suggest I........ a) Stick it out with AAR doing just 20 minutes a day. That averages out to approximately 1-2 lesson per week for us. (Which means my son might be learning to read all the way into third or fourth grade.) b. Try to go through AAR at a faster pace. (Suggestion on how to do that? Perhaps introduce new phongrams at a more rapid pace, and just allow his 'non-mastered' word cards to build up?) c) Jump ship and switch to something like "Ordinary Parents Guide" and pick it up at like Section 5 or Section 7. That would mean it would take us aprox. 166 lessons to get through the book. (33 weeks? Depending on how long a lesson takes to get through?) d) Another option?

Reading through all of these replies this morning. I just want to say THANK YOU to each of you again. I know you are all just as busy as I am, so I really appreciate you taking the time to give me such valuable feedback.

So you are saying that a third grade reading level is when you would add back in grammar and copywork, etc.?

--

Thanks so much. I'm starting to feel like I have a direction to 'head'. :) One last question for everyone, how does one define "reading well" or "reading fluently" in these early grades? It seems like a sort of subjective measurement of skill. In other words, wow will I know it is time to add back in the things some of you ladies have recommended cutting?

Copied from above: As far as bedtime goes, read alouds just don't work then. My DH doesn't get home until close to 6:30PM-7:00PM. So that means we don't have a lot of time before bed to squeeze in everything that we want. By the time we eat as a family, spend time talking to one another, get the food put away, brush teeth, etc. ----read alouds are often skipped. We can make them happen every now and then, but not everyday. I know I COULD do away with eating together as a family, but that is something that we all treasure and would miss. It is a way we reconnect with one another and we have done it since the kids were babies. (They even say things like, "We can't eat without Daddy!") :) I just don't think that bed time read alouds are something I could make work consistently. I've tried asking DH to step up and do that, but it didn't happen consistently.