Ugh!!!! We'll see how dd likes the rest of the demo. So far so good but it was only a couple of lessons. What did you wind up using?

I've been following this conversation but haven't had a chance to pipe in due to a loooong 4 day road trip with the three kiddies, the dog, a half done science experiment and a salamander :):). Is it really Summer already? Anyway......I've been thinking about the whole conceptual math idea recently, and have been doing quite a bit of outside reading to get a better idea of what real mathmeticians are shooting for when they are writing "conceptual" math programs/curricula. There is a lot of debate in educational circles on this very topic and I am not sure there are any "right" answers. Here's my take, FWIW. Conceptual math is not a new idea. In the US, children in the 17 and 1800's were always taught the "why" of math. They were also taught phonics for reading and grammar/mechanics for writing. I recently got my hands on a 4th grade math primer from 1870 and the entire book is on fractions. It is a deep, slow, point by point look at the entire concept of fractional values. I thought I knew fractions.....until I read this very thick book. The interesting thing is that a great deal of the text is written explanations (rather than numerical) to explain the math. It really is a "text" book. I think the education movement got away from the incremental way of teaching in an effort to go broad and shallow and, in their view, teach "more." The result, I think, is several generations of students who know a little bit about a lot of different things but never had the time or depth to make connections. In math, that translates into memorizing math vocabulary, formulas and shortcuts but not understanding how the three are related. If I understand it correctly, I think that is what the "conceptual math" trend is all about; going back to the incremental, step by step approach that allows children the time to learn the pieces well, build on what they've learned and make the larger connections as they go. All of that said, I think I agree with Derek to some extent. Different children learn differently. So, a good teacher for one is a lousy teacher for another and a good program for one will not work for another. That is a large reason why we took our kids out of school. The one size fits all just doesn't work. Each of my three had a very different take on that 1870 math primer, for example, despite the fact that I would absolutely consider it "conceptual." My goal for them is that they like and understand math. That includes operational understanding but also the real life aspect too. This was lacking in my education which is why I learned to hate math despite being a straight a student in two AP math classes. I am in the process of putting together my "conceptual math cocktail" for each child for next year. The path for getting them to understand the "why" of anything, let alone math, looks different for each of my dc. MM has worked as a spine if you will, but filling in the other angles looks very different for each kid. One likes games, one likes manipulatives, one likes "text" books, two like rods, another an abacus, etc. I think it's more important to find the individual path to true understanding than to buy into what each curriculum is promising. I've read a lot of reviews on many curricula here, and in other places, and I have found much to be true for my dc and much that was the exact opposite. We're figuring it out as we go with solid spines and added in extras. Oldest dd has finished MM now, hence the post on video based Algebra. We're looking for the next spine. With regard to VT and TC, dd has only sampled VT so far and she liked it. She did an intro lesson on grouping symbols (operation signs and parentheses) and why the actual, literal meaning of those signs dictates the order of operations. The lesson was clear and straightforward. The teacher was friendly and consise. VT specifically states that they want the focus to be the lesson, not the teacher. The author really loves math so I guess he feels that a math concept, taught well, is engaging enough. My second dd would not agree. 1st dd's take? "Mom, this is so cool. If they would just teach you like this in school, you wouldn't have to remember dumb sayings like please excuse my dear Aunt Sally." For her, the author is correct, the math itself is all that matters. We'll try TC and a couple of others in the coming weeks and see where we net out. For this kid, VT would get the "conceptual" job done. For my second daughter, not so much. As Derek said, it can be a great program, taught perfectly, but if your child doesn't like it and doesn't retain it, it ceases to have the "conceptual" benefit.

Yup....AoPS is in the mix too. She's working on PreA now for a "fun" (her word) diversion from Lial's. If we do TC or VT, she'll do Intro to A as an "off day" schedule. VT has 176 lessons to complete the full Algebra course. Spreading that over two years would probably mean a lesson every other day so AoPS and other resources could be plugged into the "off" days. Maybe a TC/VT and AoPS Intro to A sequence on alternating days?? Thank you for the other suggestions too. I just ordered Patty Paper Geometry. She HATES Geometry so this will hopefully be a fun introduction before it gets harder later. I'm also going to revamp all three kiddies to the "three strand approach." Need to look for resources for the 5th and 3rd graders but this makes so much sense to me.

Hi Derek....I was hoping you would chime in. I spent some time at the Videotext booth at the FPEA conference yesterday. I have to say, his approach is interesting. I'm going to do some more research on TabletClass this weekend. DD will do both demos tomorrow and we'll see. I have some concerns about a "complete" Algebra course over two years, one that my daughter would finish in 8th grade (she's 7th next year). SAT's aren't until 10th/11th grade. Will she remember everything? VT author assures me "yes" because everything is taught slowly and completely. He refers to himself as the "why guy" teaching the why of Algebra, not just the tricks, shortcuts and formulas. Sounds good, but does it work? This would be for a self declared STEM kid, so math is a priority for us. With either program, I would plan to use Foersters and Jacobs as reference to fill in holes, approach from a different angle, etc. The idea of getting Algebra done completely and well in one solid comprehensive course (without the "break" of geometry) sounds appealing. Can it be done? Not sure yet. I'd love to know what the other math gurus here know. I was good at math, but I am by no means a mathematician.

For those who have used these two programs, can you provide some input? My oldest daughter is a rising 7th grader who has finished Math Mammoth 6 and is currently working through Lial's Pre A (only topics that are not review). We are looking into Algebra 1 for next year. I went through AP Calc in HS (for no reason at all, I went into Advertising :cursing: ) but I do not remember enough to teach her right out of a book. With some support, I think this will come back quickly?? So, some type of professional math teacher helping us out is a must. I looked at Jacobs or Foerster's with the DVD components. She's not a fan of the teaching style. We'll keep those books as reference to use for a "different angle" when we need it. So we are now looking at Videotext or TabletClass. I like the "mastery" approach of Videotext (largely why we went with Math Mammoth). I like the customer service reports on Mr. Zimmerman at TabletClass. That kind of hand holding is very attractive. My daughter is on a STEM track (we think) so I am looking for rigor with review only as needed. Thoughts??

Hi Nittany Jen.....can you explain your "oddball" two week schedule? I've tried scheduling a few different ways and haven't really found the groove yet. I know the dc do not like "15 min of this followed by 15 min of that." We need larger chunks of time to get into what we're doing but then I feel like I run out of time to get it all in. I love the amount of diversity in what you've listed. Now if I can just figure out how to do it....hmmmm.

You know, I looked at AoPS Pre A when we first got it and I thought the same thing.....waaaaay too much writing and description for very straightforward concepts. DD loves the problem solving aspect of it...she's challenged by the "puzzle" of it all. I ordered some of the old CWP books to see if that will fill that void. I'm also looking at Challenge Math based on a rec from someone here for a fun summer supplement. Then, maybe Jacobs, REAL slow. I like the idea of alternate sources. I have Foerster's. I'll try to find Dolciani. Off to check out TabletClass too. Thanks for the input. At some point the tweaking is over, right???

Good point. We are working through Lial's Pre Algebra now and over the summer. My original thought was to do AoPS Pre Algebra next year to have those concepts seen and applied from a different angle, I guess you would say. She is DYING to get into Algebra but even though I think she'll be academically ready, I want to make sure she is developmentally ready too. We are looking at Jacob's Algebra, not AoPS for that one (I'm going to edit my original post to make that clearer) because I've heard that Jacob's is a more gentle entry for a younger child (she'll be in 7th). Math is a tough one because she loves math but she was so bored in school that she is relishing in the challenge of moving ahead with more difficult concepts. That said, I want her to stay motivated and continue to love it but see no reason to rush. It's trying to find that delicate balance between passion and ability.....what do do :confused1:

Changed some things....edited to reflect updates: Math - Lial's PreA isolated topics over the summer then TabletClass Algebra 1 Writing - OYAN and WWS1 Grammar - R&S 6 Vocab - Caesar's English 1 Literature - Literary Lessons From Lord of the Rings Science - Noeo Chemistry III as a guide with McHenry Elements and Carbon Chemistry added in and C12 Flex Books on topics of further interest Logic - finish Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox then Art of Argument Latin - Lively Latin Book 1 Spanish - La Clase Divertida with her little brother and sister and GWS on her own History - Middle Ages/ Renaissance study using History Odyssey, SOTW, Project Passport and Veritas Press resources. We designed it ourselves! Art - Atelier 5 with siblings Music - guitar lessons

Chrysalis.....we too use MM and I'm following this thread carefully for the reasons you've stated here. I just love Ruth! i have a "Ruth" folder on my computer for science and writing!!! My rising 7th grader is also a big picture girl. Having just pulled her from public school last year, her writing instruction was atrocious. We started with IEW this year. She learned a lot but it moved way too slow for her (she hates DVD instruction....who knew?). We'll be starting WWS 1 along with OYAN next year. As I read your post, I am curious to know what math resources you're using to give her the big pic in math. My daughter thought LOF was a bit "silly" (my second loves it) so I'm wondering if maybe some of your other resources might work. Can you suggest some good living book titles? What problem solving books do you use? We just finished MM 6 and I am constantly hearing the whole "what do I need this for?" thing. She's mathy, I think. She just doesn't like working without a purpose. Wonder who she gets that from? Sorry to go off topic on a writing thread. Maybe I should start a new one?

Just checked....my library has most of them!!! Off to a great start!! Thank you!!

Just checked....my library has most of them!!! Off to a great start!! Thank you!!

Yes, it was HO 2 Level 2. I'm thinking I can still use SOTW with maybe a History Odyssey or Kingfisher? Anyone have that type of schedule?

I looked at History Odyssey. I'm not totally loving Story of Mankind but I just did some searching and see that there might be some schedules out there that have lined up a different text.....SOTW, K12 HO, Kingfisher?? I love the idea of HO if I can use a different spine. Maybe this will be my baptism into the art of "tweaking?" Scared!!!! :crying:

This is great, thanks! I've looked over the Teacher Company and Modern Scholar offerings. Wow, I didn't even know that was out there.....very helpful. Working through the WTM myself is a good idea too. My oldest is going into 7th so I can start 9th grade reading now for myself and I think I can stay one or maybe two years ahead of her. Very good advice.

Oh my gosh!!!! Thank you!!!! This is terrific! Thank you for posting this for free!!! I am going to review this over the next week or so and I'll be back to you with questions (if that's ok? :)

Bump for the morning crowd.....

Ahhhhhh! I did not know what the Cool Histories were. I need to take a closer look at Biblioplan. I love the three day a week schedule because we do a lot of independent reading and long term projects for history so having the two days free without me feeling like we've missed something is great! How is the book list? Do they break the books up into reading levels or would I have to do that? Is most of the daily readings from living books or the Companion? Also, is it laid out by the week or the day? And finally, I can't tell from the website, where does Year 4 end in American history? Sorry to pepper you with questions but this looks good and I don't want to miss anything. Thanks for your input.

We are looking for a good history recommendation for the Middle Ages next year. We used TOG this year for Ancients and while we loved it, it was just too much money for what we actually wound up doing. We used it for history, activities and read alouds. I do Bible on my own and writing through IEW so for just history, it was REALLY expensive. We are real history folks around here so good books are critical. Here's what I would be looking for: 4 year cycle Great living books - non fiction and historical fiction Activities/movies/documentary suggestions throughout MOH or possibly SOTW for a spine I don't need a "day 1 do this" type of schedule but a general view of what to do when would be great Here's what I've been looking into: Biblioplan - maybe not enough activities/movies/hands on scheduled? WP - looks promising but is the book list TOG comparable? SOTW - not good as our only source with a 7th grader next year MOH - ditto with this one TWTM - I don't have the time to plan it all out myself....it won't happen!! MFW - same concern as TOG....maybe too much in it that I won't use?? Truthquest - too much for the littles....we tried it for Greece. Help me please!!

Hi all....I'm posting this on the high school board because I'm hoping that those of you that have come before can help me out. This was our first year of homeschooling and it went really well. I'm trying to set goals for where I'm headed with these kiddies and would like some of your wisdom to point me in the right direction. I'm looking for book titles that can help me become a better teacher. What are some titles you wish you would have read earlier or just some good books that have helped you along the way. I've read the WTM and all the "everything you ever wanted to know about homeschooling" fare. I also have these on my summer reading list so far: Corbett's rhetoric book Science Matters Any others??

Pen....do you mind if I ask why? Were your kids just not interested or was it just too basic to be of any value? My 4th grade daughter, specifically, can do the math operations but when I ask why, or how did you get there, she looks at me like a deer in headlights. I worry that later, if she doesn't know the why of math, she'll have a harder time working through the harder, longer problems of Algebra, etc. I thought about a Right Start Math or a Math U See, but honestly, I do not have time to begin a whole new methodology. She gets Math Mammoth. She likes the mastery aspect of it. I just feel like we missed the foundational knowledge that MM offered in the beginning since we came to it so late. I think I just need to supplement it a bit and we'll be okay. I'm just looking for the best supplement. Have you used anything that worked?

One last question....I was planning to start the threads in the green book through the purple book. If I do the thread method, would I need all the books for a 3rd and 5th grader? Also, what teacher materials do I need?

Thank you ladies....this is exactly how I will use it. I showed the samples to the kids and they think it's fun!!! Yeah!!! Math is fun!! Long way away from what they used to say in school. Thanks for all your help! Off to find the books and rods!!

Bumping for the morning crowd.....

Calling all Miquon users..... I have 2nd and 4th graders that have been in traditional math programs through private and public schools since the beginning. This is our first year homeschooling and Math Mammoth was very successful for us both on an academic level, but more importantly, in helping them see the bigger picture. They have always done spiral programs through the schools and we have discovered that mastery is definitely better for us. I feel like my kids can "do" math but they don't know the "why" of so many things. I've tried to verbally explain this but am now sure that I need a more "hands on" approach to supplement Math Mammoth. Can Miquon be used over the summer and as a supplement next year to solidify mental math and visualize place value/fractions/operations? I know the program tops out at 3rd grade and they are both above that level, but I was thinking to make it more of a "game time" to see if I can make these concepts a bit more concrete? Does this make any sense? If not, any other ideas??