Amy M
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Posts posted by Amy M
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Most colleges (except community college) requires at least three years of math from 9-12 grade. Our public school system requires calculus to graduate at all. MUS gives a superficial overview of the math being taught. I have know many slower to learn students who have booked through MUS with great grades. I have used MUS with my children when their self confidence was short but always had to go back over the same math using another program to get the necessary understanding to apply the math to life. Any child can regurgitate answers to simple problems when given all the steps but it doesn't mean they have the understanding to truly use it which is the whole purpose of teaching math.
Helpful, thank you. I have been going through other programs after MUS. Thus far, MUS has always done a great job of prep, and he has flown through the review program. Maybe for high school, MUS isn't enough, however. That's why I'm thinking of changing to Foerster's as my main program. But MUS might still be good for an intro. (And they do give the best discount I've seen of any homeschooling curriculum I've ever seen to missionaries! 50%) :hurray:
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Adding: around here, it is definitely the expectation of all universities that a student has completed 4 years of math in high school, not just four years of high school level math. No one cares what a student took in middle school. Their high school classes will reflect their strengths.
But again, he's 9. There really is no reason to worry about that at this point.
Wow, good to know. Does this vary by state then, do you think?
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One of my primary goals for my children is to keep doors open. I personally would not let a 9 y/o child's idea about his future dictate my schooling decisions, and I would feel an even more heightened responsibility if the student is gifted. I would want to give him all the education he is capable of, not just the education that seems necessary for his childhood dream.
I did not know that I wanted to be a physicist until I was 17. My childhood dream was to be an opera singer.
ETA: Also, I don't see why you are bent on borrowing trouble. Just keep doing math and see how things go.
Oh my goodness, I would never let my 9yo dictate my schooling decisions, of course not. That would be a pretty ridiculous overreaction, for sure. And I don't appreciate your condescension to say I'm "bent on borrowing trouble." Many people on these boards have asked how transcripts work, etc. I recall people on these boards mention not wanting their children to get into too high a level of math for this very reason. Now you're being demeaning of my question. I simply wanted to know what the common expectations are for high school now and what I can "claim" on a high school transcript. I think I'm actually being wise to learn what the expectations are and try to plan for the future with some knowledge, and what's a forum for, if not to get advice from the vets. I wish someone would give me a straight answer if this is really true--because it's hard for me to wrap my head around--that high schoolers now all need four years of high school math, regardless of how many levels of "high school math" they've done before. And whether or not you can "claim" the high school level math on their high school credits, if done before high school.
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Do you realize that Life of Fred has 3 pre-algebra books after Decimals & Percents, before getting into algebra 1? The good news (for you) is that I've heard people say that kids often slow down in Fractions and beyond.
Yep, I did realize that. But I would have to spend about $60 to get through the three pre-algebra books, which was disappointing to me that they didn't just print one book, rather than mixing it with physics, etc. DS really enjoys LOF, but we are tight on money, so I thought that was a steep price for a supplement. (I use it for a review/challenge after completing the MUS topic. MUS is our main curriculum.) He flew through LOF fractions, but he had just completed MUS Epsilon.
Anyway, yes, you should count on him doing 4 years of math in high school.
I'm not trying to be contrary, but why should I count on him doing four years of math in high school? Why not 3? or even 2? Especially if he already completed 1-2 years of high school level math in junior high? Are all colleges expecting four years now, or just a few elites? It seems that lots of kids wouldn't be able to do more than 2-3 years of math. Not everyone is going to be STEM-oriented.
What a 9yo thinks about future career plans is pretty meaningless.
I understand what you're saying, and I would normally agree with you, but I actually see this child becoming a missionary like he says. Yes, it might change. But neither do I think it's meaningless at this point.
One of the years of math in highschool could be statistics (something I think every kid should take anyway). But geometry and trigonometry/precalculus are very standard and not "hard maths", and expected by not very elite colleges (like, by non-flagship state universities), especially depending on his intended major (I started out as an electrical engineering major at the University of Texas at Dallas, and they certainly expected at least precalc). I would definitely plan on him taking geometry and trig in high school, and possibly calculus.
I do definitely plan on geometry, of course.
ETA: I'm pretty sure I've read in some other threads that some missionary places require a bachelor's degree to become a missionary. I don't know anything about missionaries, but you might want to look into all that.
We are definitely planning on him pursuing a bachelor's degree. We are missionaries ourselves. But I might think outside the box a bit as to how that degree gets accomplished, is all I'm saying. We're probably not going to be looking into Ivy League schools.
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That's quite a range of books!
I make the majority of my income writing and teaching writing, so I own most of those. My tastes tend towards classical models, and I'm more of an expository writer professionally.
For an adult, I'd start out with How to Write a Sentence, then The Lively Art of Writing followed by Elements of Style. After that I'd work through D'Angelo and Horner.
Yes, this is for me, an adult. :) Ooh, thank you! I'm so excited to hear from someone who knows many of these books and who writes professionally. I really appreciate that you listed a top 5 for me. I'll try to get through at least the first 4 this year in 2017. The first three are pretty small books. This feels much more do-able now. Thank you!
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I don't know what you call "super hard maths".
Algebra 1 counts for the high school transcript even if taken before 9th grade.
For a strong, advanced math student, it is beneficial to choose a rigorous math program that goes deep and broad instead of rushing through an easy program.
You should plan on having your student take math every year; colleges don't look kindly on students who get done with the bare minimum and then rest on their laurels.
There is nothing "super hard" about upper level highschool math; I would expect a student who is ready for algebra in 6th grade to have no problems when he encounters precalculus and calculus (which are not intrinsically harder than algebra).
There is plenty of math to cover; accelerated students can use this to study fields of math that are not part of the typical canon. You might want to look into Art of Problem Solving which offers two semester texts on Number Theory and Counting and Probability that many of us use to stretch the math progression for students who take algebra very early.
So if he takes Algebra 1 in 7th grade, I can list that on the high school transcript; however, some colleges still require four further years of higher maths? It seems the playing field has changed a lot from when I was in high school. I took Algebra 2 in 11th grade, and then stopped, but Algebra 2 wasn't required. Now it seems like my son could be taking Algebra 2 in 8th grade and then still required to take four more years of math. That's what I call "super hard math." Whatever that fourth year is after Algebra 2. :crying: I don't know. It all sounds hard to me, because honestly I don't remember a thing after Algebra 1. I will definitely be outsourcing these higher maths, and if there's a problem, we're in Africa. I need to find something that can give him online tutorial or phone call help if he needs once he gets beyond me. Most likely, I won't have time to keep up with him either. I'll have four younger children to homeschool, when he'll be in that rhetoric stage (and absolutely no interest in educating myself in trigonometry). Oh my, I'm nervous just thinking about it!
Art of Problem Solving: I tried Beast Academy with him almost two years ago, level 3A. We loved the comic book, but the problem book, he frequently made mistakes on or couldn't figure out (he'd be confused on maybe 1 out of 5?) Honestly? I couldn't even figure some of them out without looking at the solutions. I thought those were, at times, ridiculously hard for a third grader. We've been using MUS. It works well for us. Knowing that many here pooh-pooh it for not being strenuous enough, I reviewed with SM. I could barely slow him down. He'd finish SM, two levels, in a month when we were reviewing MUS. This last year, I managed to slow him down about 6 weeks by making him review with LOF Fractions, and plan to do the same next year--to review MUS Zeta with LOF Decimals and Percents. I have SM up through level 4B as well. I had thought about going through MUS pre-Algebra and then switching to Foersters for high school, as I know a tutor for it who will help him online. But he doesn't want to leave MUS. He really likes it. So then I thought about doing two math programs. MUS as our first run-through, kind of an intro to the topic, then Foersters. But I'd also considered AOPS pre-Algebra online course as our second run-through. Maybe his logic would be better at that point than when we tried BA. When would he take the Number Theory/Counting/etc. texts in the progression?
In the case of the OP's ds though, I assume that a math advanced kid who has that as an interest will want to (and need to for future studies) continue math throughout high school so "getting the basics out of the way" so to speak wouldn't really help her avoid having to teach calculus (or outsourcing it somehow).
That's what I was worried about. :laugh: I asked him tonight, and he jumped in the air, and said, "I want to keep going!" He loves math.
I would caution against skipping math for the last years of high school even if the student has completed the minimum - unless the student has no interest in attending college.
Taking a year or two off math will make college math very difficult.
Selective colleges will want a student to challenge himself, not to finish the bare minimum early.
Some schools specifically want to see math every year for 9th through 12th grade.
This is an unusual child. He already knows he wants to be a missionary to Mozambique and has talked about not going to college, so that gives me these two clues at this point:
1. We're probably not going to be trying to get him into Ivy League schools. We may even do distance learning a bit in college to save money and allow him to start taking mission trips, etc.
2. I wouldn't be surprised if in high school he decides to cut out things that he deems "unnecessary" to his ultimate goals. I have encouraged him with the idea, though, of getting a bachelor's degree, say, in teaching math, and then going to seminary. But I'm wondering how elite these schools are that are requiring math every year for 9-12th grade!
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I read aloud our literature selections, thus reading level is a minor consideration.
Wow. Isn't that exhausting for you? And how do you find the time? And what do they read then for their own practice? Do you use a reading curriculum as well?
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I would love to learn more about writing and feel under-confident in leading my children to write well. I've amassed a number of books and curricula on the subject! So far, I've used WWE1-3 both workbooks and our own way, CAP W&R1-2, R&S's writing lessons in their grammar books, and a couple of other things here and there. This next year I'm trying Classical Writing Homer and Aesop with my kids. I have several other writing curricula on the shelf as well. Can you tell I'm feeling under-confident.
So I'm posting a list of some books I have below, and asking for advice on where to start reading on my journey of self-education this year. Can you put in order the first five books you think I should read? I'd love suggestions for other good books if you don't see them on the list, but honestly I'm in Africa, so I can't get them right now.
- On Writing Well Zinsser
- Why Johnny Can’t Write
- The Elements of Style by Strunk and E.B. White
- The Lively Art of Writing by Payne
- Bird by Bird Anne Lamott
- How to Write a Sentence and Read… by Fish
- Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition by Horner
- Composition in the Classical Tradition by D’Angelo
- Francine Prose: Reading Like a Writer: A Guide to Those Who Love Books and Those Who Want to Write Them
- Madeline L’Engle’s Walking on Water
- Acedia and Me: A Marriage, Monks, and a Writer’s Life by Kathleen Norris (NYT bestseller)
- Someday You’ll Write by Yates, (BJU)
- The Write Book by Allen, (BJU)
- Wordsmithy by Wilson
- I also have IEW TWSS video course.
- WWS 1
Thank you for your help!
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This is what I am thinking of doing as I'm piecing this together. I want to incorporate the Biblical history too with a good atlas and the Journey through the Bible book. Then I'll have three units of Egypt, Greece and Rome. I have Streams of Civilization I can use as a framework too. Then I'm thinking of the OUP Greece book and Augustus Caesar's World for Rome. Then I can tie in SOTW for my youngers.
I struggle with ancients because I want to tie in Biblical/Jewish history here, but I have issues with a lot of the big, expensive history packages. I love the look of TOG, but in the end, I feel there are just too many pieces of books pieced together. I don't like jumping around so much. I looked at BF because it's so inexpensive and uses good books, but I didn't like one of their other studies I tried. Thought of MFW too, but nothing is perfect. I don't like Biblioplan. I am back to doing my own thing again. I had hoped to find it ready made since I am weakest in Ancients, but I think the key thing will be choosing a few good spines we can go through.
If you're using SOTW for your youngers, just use it for your 6th grader the way SWB suggests, by beefing it up with other resources. Perhaps it's not enough all by itself, but if you add to it, it's a great spine to follow. Even her ancient history adult book follows the same topics. MFW schedules Streams and Journey through the Bible, as well as the Bible for their history, as well as hands-on activities, and you can include the youngers. It sounds perfect to me for what you're looking for, except that you may want to speed it up, and fit Rome on the end of your year, which you could just do yourself, maybe with ACW and SOTW. I just did MFW CTG, if you have any questions. There were positives and negatives. If you did want to go that route, I lined up SOTW1 with it, and it's on the MFW FB group for CTG. So you could have them all listen to SOTW and Journey, and maybe have the 6th grader read Streams on occasion to herself.
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Science--if he's starting Apologia in 7th, perhaps try the science series by Dr. Jay Wile for elementary. The first book is Science in the Beginning, then Science in the Ancient World, etc. Just pick one, maybe the last one (or latest published, I'm not sure if they're all out yet. Or correspond to whatever year you're studying in history). I've heard that if you do his elementary series, the first module or two in Apologia General Science are easier, more of a review; otherwise, I've heard those first two modules can be really tough. Just a thought. Or see what topic he wants to do and get a Janice Van Cleave book on that topic, maybe for half of the year?
Bible--I know you said no study materials, but I think a Kay Arthur deductive Bible study could be good, probably independent. I've not used one yet, but I have one lined up for 2018, "Boy, Have I Got Problems!" on the book of James. Or both boys could work together (without you?) on the Apologia worldview series (Who Is God? Who Is My Neighbor? etc.) I think there are notebooks you can get for those.
6th writing--haha, I could have said the same thing about CAP. I've only done 1-2. We're trying Classical Writing Homer A this year, but I have no idea what to recommend for you. Wordsmith Apprentice came to mind, as well as Jump In? Or just stick with CAP.
I don't know for the eighth grade. I did think the R&S 8th grade has a lot of writing instruction in there that you could use if you wanted or just skip, but then you might feel like you were wasting your money if you were skipping a lot. Honestly, I like ABeka grammar when they divorce it from their writing instruction. It's very thorough grammatically. I'm not sure if it's connected to writing in 8th grade though. I like Silver Moon's ideas listed above for your situation.
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My oldest child will start fifth grade in mid-January. He turns 10 in April. He is advanced in math, and I have tried to hold him back for years, as I had this idea that it was bad to get too high in maths too early, because then you'd still have to do super-hard math for years in high school. Is this true?
For example, he will probably start Algebra 1 about mid-6th grade at the slowed rate I'm doing with him. When can I start recording his math for his high school transcript? If he takes Algebra 1 in 7th grade, does that count? Or does he still have to take 3-4 years of upper level maths in 9-12th grades? This would inform my planning now. For example, do I want to keep slowing him down so he's not taking super-hard maths in high school, or can I count the math he learns from 7th-10th grades as his high school credits, and then he can be done with math after 10th grade if he wants (because he already completed 4 years of high school level math)? Does this make sense?
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I live in South Africa, and I also love getting help online. :)
I will disagree about SOTW, and say you're absolutely fine using SOTW as a middle school spine, adding to it as SWB suggests in TWTM. If you already have that, and you're in Morocco, go on with it as planned. Many people wouldn't even consider doing history in first grade anyway, so if you're of that mindset, you'd still be using SOTW in 5th grade. I think SOTW is leagues better than history you would get in the government schools. You're just fine to use it for 5th and third grader. Some of the activities from the guide might be too young for the 5th grader, though, depending on your family style.
Maybe you could consider doing a year of Latin in place of grammar this year. :closedeyes:
You might like elemental science. I definitely want a curriculum rather than the way TWTM lays out.
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IMHO Henty is boring, I’d skip all of them. Or maybe try one.
Thanks. I do have an audio version of some by Hodges (I forget the first name, a new guy in homeschooling audio.) If I have one of these, maybe I'll have ds read along with the audio as an easier option, and just listen to one or two others if I have enough. I knew I wouldn't have time for all of them anyway. Just wondered what reading level he is at.
The following are on our list for this spring:
Beowulf, Robert Nye
Odd and the Frost Giants, Neil Gaiman
Robin Hood, Roger Lancelyn Green
Selections from Ivanhoe, Sir Walter Scott [Librivox recording]
Adam of the Road, Elizabeth Janet Gray
When the Sea Turned to Silver, Grace Lin
A Single Shard, Linda Sue Park
The Door in the Wall, Marguerite De Angeli
Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales, Marcia Williams OR Canterbury Tales, Geraldine McCaughrean
I appreciate your sharing your list. I do have other items on my list, but wanted help with the reading level of some of the ones I listed. I know The Door in the Wall will be a read-aloud for us, and I have a few versions of Robin Hood to choose between. That's a neat idea to just do selections from Ivanhoe from Librivox. I wondered about A Single Shard--I think I'll use that one, though it is about medieval Korea, and I thought we would cover more of Japan and China--and thought of Where the Mountain Meets the Moon. I've not read Lin's work you mention here. How does it compare--did you prefer it? I just read Canterbury Tales by McCaughrean, and plan to use much of it, excepting the few chapters that I didn't like for their treatment of adultery. That's why I pre-read, as I'd heard Chaucer's Tales were bawdy.
Ben Hur – audiobook version maybe. I decided against it.
I do have a children's version (picture on every page) of this. Wondered if I should use it or go for the original. Sounds too difficult though.
Shakespeare will be next year. Other than watching the BBC’s Shakespeare the Animated Tales, I haven’t made any firm decisions for next year. We are behind schedule this year, so we will probably start the year by finishing up this year’s readings.
Thanks for your input. I love talking about children's books.
Here's a really fun book about Roman gladiators - "Julius Zebra: Rumble with the Romans" by Gary Northfield.
This sounds really neat! Thanks for the suggestion. I have a problem, though--I'm a missionary in Africa, so I was just going to work with what I already have and can't easily get new books. But maybe I'll put it on my wish list for the future for the other kids coming up.
re: reading level
Of all of the books you list, except for Otto of the Silver Hand and Adam of the Road, I would say they are all much more of a 7th-8th grade reading level. If you have an average 5th grade level reader, esp. one who's not "into" reading fiction, then I'd either drop all or shift all to read-alouds rather than readers (except for Otto of the Silver Hand which should work fine as a solo reader for a 5th grader).
This is helpful, thank you. He isn't average, in the sense that he chose to read a few 400-page works on church history and theology (!) this year, though admittedly they took him a long time. And every fiction book I've assigned him in school he has enjoyed; he just never picks up a fiction book himself, or continues of his own volition in a series. He admits he doesn't like fiction, but then once admitted that he just wants exciting stuff. Anyway, I know I cannot shift his whole literature list to read-alouds. This is supposed to be his reading for the year, and I don't have the time to read them all with him. But I will use the ones on my list that I already know are fine for his reading level then.
re: Sutcliffe
I personally really enjoy her books, as they are beautifully written, and she's got real depth of character and theme in her works. However, because her writing has a lot of wonderful poetic language use and description, and because she often inverts typical sentence structure, these techniques can make her works feel "slow" or "dull" to a typical 5th-6th grade reader who "just wants to get on with the next plot point".
hmmm, interesting. He would probably struggle, then, unfortunately. Maybe I could buddy read Eagle of the Ninth with him, and forget the others.
re: Henty
As far as themes in Henty's works: Henty was in essence writing "dime novels" of historical "romances" (adventures) for his 1800s British audience. He was an author of his times and his works reflect the attitudes of the 19th century upper class English. Today, we see the anti-Catholic, faulty Christian theology, imperialistic, racist (esp. denigrating of Blacks), and white superiority in those attitudes and beliefs. Some people on these boards use his works as discussion opportunities to point out these problems, while still enjoying the adventure aspect of his books.
I had never heard this.
As far as writing Henty's writing quality: I personally find his writing to be mediocre. It is also tougher-going for a 5th grader, as his writing is straight up Victorian (complex and sometimes convoluted sentences, older vocabulary, tendency towards flowery language). Henty's works are "dime novels", so heavy on improbable adventure, and shallow in character development and lacking in development of theme and beauty of language use. With so many great historical fiction works out there, esp. many written for the upper elementary/young adult ages, I personally would pass on the problematic works of Henty for something that is much more age appropriate, interesting, and better written.
Okay, thanks.
re: Adam of the RoadYou may even want to shift this to a read-aloud -- JMO, but the unusual sentence structure and the Medieval terms places it more at a 6th grade level for comfortable reading.
That's what I wondered when I glance at it. I really want to do this one, though. But I don't want to exhaust or discourage him with too many hard selections.
re: Ivanhoe / Arabian Nights
At this age, if you don't have a fiction-lover, I'm all for using movies and graphic novels as a way to absorb the story and the feel of the times, and then in high school, read the full original versions to analyze and dig deep into the language and literature. :)
OK, this question might be a bit off-topic, but then what do you do for reading? I like movies, etc., but I don't want to wait on all reading until high school. :) There are so many good options for this age and for this time period of history, would you suggest I simply use easier options then?
Tenggren's Golden Tales from the Arabian Nights (Tenggren) -- well-written; longer, but with gorgeous artwork
(I would like this one, but when I looked at it before, I thought it was out of print? It was really expensive.)
One last thought: to help encourage your DS with reading fiction, I highly recommend doing some of your history-go-along fiction works together: read aloud a chapter, or for 20-30 minutes, "popcorn style" ("you read a page, I read a page"), which sets up a great dynamic for discussing together as you read. That encourages a "reluctant fiction reader" to see and share interesting things in the story with you, as you are sharing what you see in it; that also models how to read fiction, and is a great stepping stone into the kind of deeper reading and analyzing of Literature that you'll be doing in high school. Plus, it's just great fun and builds good reading memories together of shared book experiences. :) Even if you have a lot of children or high-need younger children, I strongly encourage carving out 20 minutes a day (maybe in the evening) to do this aloud-together reading of classic Literature, as it helps build an appreciation and understanding of the Great Books.
Enjoy your Ancient/Medieval studies! Warmest regards, Lori D.
Thanks so much for all of your thorough, thoughtful help! You're always so interesting and helpful, Lori D.! I really appreciate your time.
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I'm planning a list of literature that corresponds with Roman and medieval times for my 5th grade boy, beginning in January. He's turning ten in April and is a decent reader but not really advanced. There are lots of good options for this year. Unfortunately he doesn't love fiction. He has read adult versions of church history and missionary biographies, however, though it takes a while for him to get through them. So I have a list of books and would love some feedback on some of the options, if you think they would be too hard for him at his age, mostly Rosemary Sutcliffe and G.A. Henty choices that I wasn't sure of. Here are some I was wondering about:
by Henty:
The Young Carthaginian
Beric the Briton
For the Temple: Fall of Jerusalem
Winning His Spurs: A Tale of the Crusades
By Right of Conquest
The Dragon and the Raven
by Sutcliff:
Eagle of the Ninth
The Lantern Bearers
The Shining Company
by Howard Pyle:
The Merry Adventures of Robin Hood--should I wait till high school for Pyle's version, and use an easier one now?
Otto of the Silver Hand
Ben Hur--would that be too hard for a fifth grader?
Adam of the Road?
Is there an easier version of Ivanhoe for kids? What about Arabian Nights? Would Yesterday's Classics or the Baldwin Project have something for this age group?
What is your top favorite Shakespeare choice for this age?
and King Arthur? I have White's book and Roger Lancelyn Green's. Should I do Green's King Arthur and His Knights of the Round Table for this age and use White for high school?
I also have Fierce Wars and Faithful Loves: Book 1 of Edmund Spenser's The Faerie Queene by Roy Maynard, but it looks too hard to me. Published by Canon Press, anyone know if this book is supposed to be for junior high or high school? Is there another retelling of Faerie Queen in chapter book format that would be good for early logic stage?
I understand if you all can't comment on all the books, but if you have any advice for any of my questions on this list, I'd be grateful to hear it! Thank you!
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We are studying SOTW2 this coming year, and I wanted to add a few poems that would go well with those topics. Can you help me think of any? They can be stories or inspirational that go along with the religious themes of the times. I know I want to memorize the Apostles' Creed and St. Francis of Assisi's Sermon to the Dogs with the children, as a few examples, but would also like some poems. This is for two boys in 5th and 3rd grades.
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We used CAP Fable and Narrative 1 after WWE3. We also did the writing lessons in our grammar, R&S4. This time around with my third grader I'm going to try Classical Writing Aesop, and Homer with my 5th grader. Www.classicalwriting.com
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For me the problem really is, we feel blindsided by the whole issue. We have had our son in Sunday School since he was a bit over 3. He was actually the same age my younger son is now, when we started going to this church. At one point right before I started the process to get pregnant with my younger son, I was asked if I wanted to teach Sunday School. I declined telling them that I was planning on getting pregnant and I wasn't sure how long I could do Sunday School once I got pregnant. Aside from that one encounter, we had NO idea that there was even a need for a change in Sunday School. One could argue that by them asking me, that wasn't even a need for anything other then more volunteers.
If they would have told us that they wanted to have a meeting to discuss issues with Sunday School, we would have went. If they gave us any indication that there were issues with Sunday School, we would have called for a meeting to take place. However no discussion took place. It is possible that there was discussion of this in VBS planning meetings. However VBS this year was scheduled to start the DAY my baby turned 3. 3 is the minimum age for VBS. Needless to say I didn't think he was ready and didn't plan to put him in VBS so I didn't go to the planning meetings as I didn't want to juggle this and help out with VBS.
We were told when we converted to this denomination from what we were, that they were a "bottom up" organization. To me a "bottom up" organization would imply that if the leadership of the church saw an issue, they would bring it to a meeting to address such topics. Who knows, maybe someone in the congregation would have come up with a better solution. More minds, often result in better outcomes when problems arise. The end result could have also been the same. There is a chance that some people wouldn't have come to the meeting. However, if there was one, at least no one could say that they didn't know about it, provided it was advertised for a few weeks prior, like most meetings are.
I think that is where one of my big rubs are. I feel like they saw a broken system and assumed that the rest of us did to.
:glare: That does sound frustrating. I'm thinking that you and/or your husband should see if you can arrange a time to speak with the elders or elder in charge of this decision to ask them your questions and share your concerns. Maybe they'd listen and change the idea, or at the least, apologize for trying to get more bottom-up results (like, family-led spiritual training) through top-down methods.
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I didn't read all the comments, only the first, and the letter. My impression after reading your initial post was, "Sounds like they're going family-integrated. But that's kind of a weird way to do it." From what I've heard, homeschoolers are generally proponents of family-integrated churches, for the same reasons that they like homeschooling, e.g. God gave ME the responsibility to educate my children, and I don't want my children to only learn in age-segregated groups. Another reason I've heard (mainly against "children's church") is that you don't want the child to go to a hyped-up, revivalistic, daycare type of Sunday school scenario where the kids are taught subconsciously that, really, learning about God isn't fun, so we have to trick you into thinking it's great with lots of candy and prizes and games and bait-and-switch tactics. Then the kids grow older and have to attend "real church," and now "it's boring," and all about me, not about God.
I understand and relate to some of those reasons for wanting a more family-integrated model. However, it seemed to me that they were not getting the point completely, since your post made it seem like the kids were still age-segregated, while asking parents to sit in with them! I've heard of it the other way, where kids of all ages, from 2-16, sit in the parents S.S. class.
However, when I read the letter, I noticed that they are not requiring this. (Point 4, I think.) if you don't want to do it, you don't have to. They will "allow" other mentors for your children, not forcibly assign. You do not have to try this, if you don't want to, and you and your children are still welcome to continue attending as before. Secondly, the age-segregation is fairly logical. Babies and littles, elementary, and jr high/high school. If you have w first, third, and fifth grader, one parent can sit in with all three together. At least, that was my impression; maybe I misunderstood how big your church is. So many families could handle that with two parents, unless they have a pretty large family with a big age spread, in which case, based on the tone of the letter, I'm guessing they'd work with you and understand if you need to tweak the program a little for your family.
I have attended two churches that were family-integrated friendly, meaning they encouraged families to learn together, but still provided the traditional format for those whose wanted separate classes. From what I saw, the families did a good job keeping little ones from distracting others, and if they got loud, they took them out. I do think it's good for the kids to hear mature adults discussing Scripture. Seems biblical too, for the families to be together. But I am a missionary and always have to care for my own kids during church. When I come home to the States and get to put my kids in their own class (that I don't have to teach!), that can be such a relief! So I can relate to both sides.
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One option that sticks out to me is just to do what you have, consistently. You have good programs and already spent the money on them, so if it's just a matter of using something consistently then try what you already chose that fits your philosophy.
The other option that sticks out to me is to compromise a little on your hands-on philosophy, still choosing something academically strong, just easier for you to accomplish. If a program is teacher-intensive, it can be daunting to pick up daily and continue working on it. You may want something that visibly packs a punch with less effort on your part. Either way though, at the younger phonics and math stages, almost everything is teacher-intensive to some degree. But if you're looking for something more workbook-y, go with ABeka or CLE.
Here's what I like if you decide to switch: ABeka phonics, handwriting, reading, and language all-in-one; and MUS for math. Keep AAS.
Here's why: MUS gives you the hands-on, but is easier for you as the teacher than RS, and the DVDs and manipulatives might be more fun for the kids. It is mastery, so as soon as the kids have mastered those lessons, you can speed the older one through her levels to try to catch her up. You could still implement the RS games when you want, but don't need to depend on them daily for instruction, and the MUS workbook gives you the workbook, but without too many problems per page.
ABeka: I think this would solve some of your problems. It's not quite as complicated as AAR with all the pieces, the TM gives you a daily script (like AAR) and daily lesson plans (which you could easily speed through if some areas didn't need as much work). The dictation is so incremental. The kids end up writing lots of words down without even realizing it. It starts in K with writing down "blends" as they call them (a consonant with a vowel, like "ba.") They don't make the reading as scientific as AAR. It's absolutely and only phonetic, but they don't use terms like "phonograms," just "special sounds." The point is to get the kid reading fluently. So they drill and drill their sounds and keep drilling in lots of incremental, varied review. Instead of starting with all of the sounds of "ou" for example, they will teach "ou in out" much earlier than "ou in country," and never get to things like "ou in soup," except as a list once in second grade, when the child is already getting fluent at picking out abnormalities of the English language.
There's a handy, fun phonics workbook to help drill those things and make the info more ingrained in a painless way, and again, the children are writing down things before they even realize it. You as the teacher never have to plan or prepare, except for the "chalkboard work," which I already made and will share on my blog for you if you do use this program. :) You could use their readers, which go right along with the phonics work, and many of them have classic stories, like fables or an excerpt from Paddington Bear, included. (Some are more boring.) They do offer game ideas as well to go with the phonics work. Then you could use AAS for spelling for these reasons. The language book would give you just a touch of grammar and some "writing" if you chose to use it (I didn't) and would review the phonics as well, and things like mechanics and usage. The handwriting book would be very helpful, because it only makes them write the things covered in the phonics. So in K, they're just writing letters and "blends" working up to words and maybe short sentences.
If you used ABeka for phonics, reading, and handwriting, and AAS for spelling, you wouldn't need WWE. Copywork would be covered in handwriting workbooks, and dictation would be covered in both ABeka and AAS in a less frustrating way, because both programs would ONLY make the child write what they already knew how to write (or had a pretty good idea). WWE could be frustrating at times for my kids because the dictation often includes words that they can't spell. You could start your 6 yo in ABeka 1st, and your 8 yo in ABeka 2nd, or put them both in ABeka 1st for phonics, but speed it up for the 8yo. (That might be frustrating for the older if you had them completely together.) By the end of the year, ABeka 2nd grade phonics, reading, handwriting, and language would be a great place for a 9yo to be, and I think they could go into school then. Just a thought.
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I got a lot of helpful thoughts during a time of upheaval last year: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/544119-help-for-homeschooling-during-upheaval/
We had even more upheaval after that, and I have often battled feelings of discouragement, stress, constantly feeling behind, totally burnt out but unable to quit, with no support network.
I've read some on depression since then, and one of the most practical things that stuck with me is to "just do the next right thing." Does the baby need his nappy changed? I go change it. Do I need to wash a load of laundry? I don't minister to the clothes, I just fill up a load of all different colors on cold and move on. In a way perhaps it helped that I didn't have the option to put my kids in school: I knew I had to keep on doing this for their sakes, and it helps keep me too busy to think about my personal issues. :) But in another sense, perhaps it would have been really nice just to send the older ones to school for a year until my life got back into some semblance of order. :) if you decide that you will keep on homeschooling, I would keep that thought forefront. "Do the next thing." Is it time to get up? Do it. Time for a shower now? Do it. Did dd eat breakfast? What about you? Etc. same thing with homeschooling: Is it time for math? Do it...
As I read through this thread, I was thinking, take her to some church activities! They will help her soul, hopefully give her good friends and families to be around, and provide free activities like a children's choir or gym time. Then I saw you wee already thinking of that. I've also heard of people using their library for art activities or book discussions groups. I wouldn't know about that since I don't have that option.
For household issues, buy a stack of paper plates. Teach dd to help with chores if she isn't already. I wouldn't survive if my kids weren't helping to fold clothes and wash dishes. I also thought of slow cooker meals, and the occasional breakfast for dinner type meal.
Is there anything you would like to do or learn yourself that would provide you some personal interest and peace? Perhaps you could take a class together with you daughter on drawing or music appreciation or something. I have no idea if anything like this exists. hugs to you, and I hope you find an option that you feel good about.
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There is also The Children's Homer by Padraic Colum. My oldest daughter has read 3 versions of the Iliad and Odyssey. :svengo: She *really* likes Iliad/Odyssey. The Sutcliffe version is great. We really enjoyed that one. I think the Padraic Colum version is my daughter's favorite. The language is a little more difficult in that book, though.
If you guys end up liking The Children's Homer, we are reading Children of Odin together and it is really entertaining. A bunch of stories of the Norse gods and goddesses...even I'm enjoying it.
Thank you, yes, I do have this one as well. We'll be reading it aloud together this year with MFW. I noticed that the Sutcliff version had some illustrated editions out, but I'd also recognized McCaughrean's name, so wondered mainly between those two. But I'm very glad to hear that the Colum edition is a hit, because I've heard some say it was a slog. I was committed to doing it no matter what this year, but wanted some other editions for my boys to read on their own (illustrations are a plus!) I wonder if anyone here has tried the Yesterday's Classic version?
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Hubby and kids read Sutcliff's and McCaughrean's versions from the library. The McCaughrean one (link below) we read is not new so not sure if we are talking about the same book.
https://www.amazon.com/Odyssey-Geraldine-McCaughrean/dp/0192741306
We also liked Gareth Hind's graphic novel version.
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It looks like the one you read is an older edition with illustrations, but the same author. Did you like Sutcliff or McCaughrean better?Hubby and kids read Sutcliff's and McCaughrean's versions from the library. The McCaughrean one (link below) we read is not new so not sure if we are talking about the same book.
https://www.amazon.com/Odyssey-Geraldine-McCaughrean/dp/0192741306
We also liked Gareth Hind's graphic novel version.
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Rosemary Sutcliff's The Wanderings of Odysseus
or Geraldine McCaughrean's The Odyssey ?
Actually the latter looks really new, so maybe no one's tried it yet.
ETA: or Alfred B. Church's version The Odyssey for Boys and Girls (Yesterday's Classics)?
What do I need to know in preparation for high school math?
in Logic Stage & Middle Grade Challenges
Posted
Thank you for your advice! I'm really not that worried about this! Just trying to know how it all works, you know? But I definitely won't be able to help him personally on all that upper level math, that I do know. I agree, I don't think he's terribly advanced. He does seem to get a lot of math intuitively without needing a lot of explanation. But honestly, I'm not sure if he could even handle AOPS (considering the BA challenges made no sense to him), so yeah, I agree with you that he's not totally out of the norm--in which case, when he slows down, which I've heard some children do...I wondered if he'd be able to handle four years of harder maths later. Anyway, I must be giving everyone the impression I'm super concerned about this, but I think I'm just trying to know whether I need to be going "deeper" now rather than speeding ahead, or whether I need to start keeping records in a year from now! Thanks for your advice. :)