Joan in GE
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Posts posted by Joan in GE
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Dd is doing AP Euro and AP Chem through PAHS and now German through Goethe institute....
Euro is tons of work but dd finds it very interesting (for those thinking of it in the future - there are almost no holidays - 3 wks at Christmas and a bit of time at Easter).
The Chem teacher seems to be good so far...lots of kids in that class - like 70! But I think it's the only one he teaches.)
Goethe has just started so can't give much feedback yet except that the German tutor - once a week Skype sessions - is a native German speaker; it is spendy so I wanted to make sure dd would get her money's worth by being advanced when starting...(Upon reflection, perhaps this wasn't a good idea, but I'll know better over time).
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Several years ago now we were discussing these things on this board...I don't have time to rewrite old posts these days but if you search bilingual in this forum we talked about using other subjects at the high school level....Typically you would do several of the subjects each year in LOE to have a bilingual diploma. And for a trilingual diploma I think basically a third of the subjects each year in each language.
We have done some other subjects in LOE at the high school level but the umbrella I'm using doesn't offer a bilingual designation and to work at a higher level (AP in a foreign language doesn't work since the test will be in English) so the end years are definitely not bilingual... We've ended up on focusing on early graduation so dd can move on...
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Went again yesterday - it's only once a week...Just to add - We're not using the course as the only part of the course I've scheduled, just as a part (the uni course is French rhethorique so she's adding it to the EAD course which is not so intense). And yesterday I found we could also get the 'polycopie' (what they use instead of books typically - photocopies of the text the teacher has developed) for the uni course. The part missing is the 'exercises' - separate time where they practice the rhetoric issues he's explaining...I'm going to try to find out what they're doing from a friend who took the course while in uni...
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We love learning languages, so this was one of our favorite parts of homeschooling.
Sounds like it made it quite special...Have you ever posted your schedules over the years or written up specifically what materials you used (I know this kind of thing takes lots of materials over the years, so it can be a pain to list)? I know several people with larger and some very large families who need to have more languages because that's the requirement here, who are having trouble...It might be helpful for them to see how you did it....
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DS is currently taking his 3rd year of Spanish. He doesn't really like it but understands it's a box checking activity for college and just wants to get it over with. He has no intention/desire to use it outside of class. We are trying to decide if it will be necessary to take a 4th year.
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DS could take AP Spanish next year (at least I think that is what he would take next) but we are already planning 3-4 other AP classes next year, and would rather avoid adding an AP he has no interest in unless it was super necessary.
That he doesn't really enjoy Spanish means that trying to take an AP after only 3 years would probably not lead to good results without a lot of work. If he enjoyed the language then he might have picked up a lot in 3 years, but since he doesn't, he probably doesn't have the level of 4 years which normally precede AP...Since he has the other AP's on his plate, I'd abandon that idea.
The idea of just adding a 4th year of Spanish that is easy would be easier to organize, less stressful and might lead to more enjoyment of the language for him, meaning that even if he did have to take it in college, it might be easier to tolerate.
If taking the SAT II would be helpful, then you could work towards that in the 4th year (as long as the level is easier than the AP which I think it is but am not sure - others would have more experience in relation to Spanish than we do). But get some good books so you know exactly what you are working towards. We didn't with German and even though dd did fairly well on the German AP, she didn't do so well on the SAT II German as there were questions that weren't even found on the AP...
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Oh, I guess the cc was for other subjects then. So are you fluent yourself? That's my problem...I'm completely dependent on outsourcing...But I thought the 5 wks immersion time would do the trick, at least for the AP exam which is so much more culturally dependent. But then, the computer problems probably had an effect on her oral scores...
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I think i have used the wrong abbreviation, in Dutch it os ERK, In English CERF or something like that.
It is about the A2 , B2, C1 leveling.
Well one interesting thing about those comparisons I find is that the C levels are pretty difficult, involving giving presentations that might be difficult at a Jr Hi level for example...So sometimes, for some 'native' speakers, if they don't have a university track education, they might not actually be able to pass a C-level exam....this depends on the country of course and what 'obligatory schooling' involves...Here, students can go on to apprenticeships after the age of 14 or 15 and then they wouldn't always have developed those kind of skills...
But if you look at the document describing the levels in generalities, they say that C level does not mean to imply native speaker profiency - I suppose there they mean someone who has a university education...Here's a very simplified self-assessment grid
And you were right - it is CEFR
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Just curious, if you're willing to share -- What were the warning signs/red flags you noticed? At what point did you become nervous that your child wasn't flourishing?
The first two years we thought things were going well with the exception of having to intervene two months into the first year because the teacher wasn't stopping the kids from laughing about ds's accent...Ds got awards and his grades weren't bad coming from an English speaking home...
the following year was not going so well but we didn't know exactly what the problem was and the teacher had an absolutely horrible reputation so we thought things would get better the next year....I can't say they got worse but they didn't get better....Dh was not interested in pulling him out though....The following year was jr hi...where everyone is adjusting...the next year was worse so then dh pulled him out the following year. But it was really two late - the damage was done..
Generally it took at least 2 years or more for ds to actually divulge what he had been doing...We had a parent teacher conference with the 'horrible' teacher but she never elaborated on what ds was doing exactly....
Basically that year he decided to be bad to get 'friends'...but I didn't find out for years about that decision...
There were other circumstances which are too private to go into which also made his environment not so supportive...hopefully your situation is different...
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Do you have an idea how French as first language at EAD relates to French as Foreign Language a la CEFR?
I like the idea, and living in Belgium would make probably everything free, but I'm not sure where to start after the grade 8 / A2-level exams.
( and if everything I try, won't work this year I probably need something to prepare those exams...}
Hmmm...I don't know what CEFR is...
Dc did the high school level courses as if French is their first language....and work we did with French as a Foreign language was primary school level, ages ago. So I don't have much to compare for you....sorry!
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Wow, congrats to your daughter, Joan! My son did OSU German though AP but didn't feel prepared for the AP exam, which has become harder and harder to find anyway (our local ps dropped it about 4 years ago), but my hunch was that he'd do all right on the AP exam because he speaks and reads easily (but is a bit shaky on genders etc.). He did get 650 on the SAT subject test (with listening), so that gives us two data points for the OSU course -- solid, if not off-the-charts, preparation for these tests. (But an engaging course that has led to my son talking about taking German in college and possibly minoring in it!)
Yes, it is a very engaging course. Both dc that took it came away liking German a lot and dd is continuing.
Dd's finally started the Goethe course and it turns out
there is a weekly tutoring session as well - thankfully on European time now. see post further below...Hmmm.... My 2 older dds both took the German AP last spring, one got a 5 and the other a 4. I was thinking of signing them up for the German SAT2 with Listening next month, but you have me wondering if I should just let the AP scores stand?? I could sign them up for Spanish with Listening instead (I was considering doing that next year - you can only do one Listening exam per year as they're all given at exactly the same time just once) - they're both taking the Spanish AP in the spring.
What do you think? Sign them up for the German or not? I let them both drop Saturday School this year, where they would have been studying for the DSD2. With all their other APs and starting to do college visits this year (they're juniors) and good scores on the AP, I decided to let it go...
(and just FYI, the hardest US-given German test is now the AATG4. One of my twins took it three times (Sat School just keeps giving it every year once you hit that level, as there are no higher levels). The third year (last year) they redesigned the test. Dd's still scored over 90th percentile, but her raw score (and everyone else's) dropped quite a bit. Some of the native speakers had a hard time with the comprehension questions (about weird things like job ads for Bankers). The AP was easy after that one...
thanks for the info about AATG4....
I have no idea what is being taught in your dc's Saturday school. As Muttichen says, give them the practice test...
I asked dd a bit more and she thought that the AP French is equal to the AP German in terms of difficulty, and that she just didn't do as well because she doesn't know German as well as French.
She gave an example about the SAT II - that it gives a fill in the blank asking what case a certain word is in a sentence - a type of question that doesn't even occur on the AP. She says the cases were covered in OSU but not really drilled. So if yours are getting drilled on that type of thing, then they should do better.
I'd suggest you give them a practice test from the CB book and see how they do. All six of my dc got 5s on the AP and scored in the mid-700s on the SAT2.
I have a vague recollection that yours were doing the languages at community/college - was that the case for German? If not, what preparation did you give them? Congratulations by the way!
In summary, it does seem safe to say that a perfect AP score does not lead to a perfect SAT II score in German, especially without special preparation....
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We tried this - the OP original question - local school plus English studies at home....I think it greatly depends on the child and the environment at the school - eg how receptive they are towards foreigners and how foreign your child looks....
For one of our dc it basically worked and for the other it basically didn't and we're still suffering the consequences today.
If I had to do it over again with the one, I wouldn't have put so much time in for the English at home and would have been more sensitive to the social situation....but then we all still speak English at home, unlike other families where the children start switching to the local language, so perhaps we're unique...
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For those who don't know about EAD, it's a Belgian correspondance program that has a fairly large offering of free courses...In the past, I had had problems with the shipping because if you don't live in Belgium, they send the coursework by the cheapest method (as shipping is also free) which for us was very slow.
But now that they're going online, there won't be that problem...So people in Europe looking for coursework in French might consider this...
Enseignment a distance (EAD)
There were a few discussions about the offerings several years ago...
Personally we've most used them for high school level French - literature analysis. We also started the German but found dc needed something more interactive. And we started biology but it was so old at the time (don't know if they've updated but perhaps with things going online they will), dating from the 80's....
One course is not equal to one credit of work and they are a bit difficult in that way as not all the French courses are equal amounts of 'work/material'...but they're useful as part of a program, especially if you have a base already.
They have enough other offerings that it could be good for a bilingual program as well...
Oh yes, there is an initial fee of 37.50 Euros if you are not Belgian (or see their list of exemptions)...but you can take as many courses as you want after paying that fee.
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Things were busy over the summer and I'm finally getting back to report in case there is anyone interested....Dd got a 4 on the AP German and I think a 620 on the SAT II German even with using a study guide for the SAT in the weeks between the AP and SAT II and the problems mentioned above with the oral part of the AP exam...So I think OSU prepared her for the AP but not so well for the SAT II....
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Many times there are no 'community college' type possibilities overseas...When I inquired about dc doing university classes here while still in high school, I was told they had to have finished high school before applying with the exception of a summer French course at the university and a math program for very advanced students at a local tech institute....
But just last week we found another option which I never knew existed....there are regular courses at the university which are also open to the general public...So the student doesn't get a grade but can go for the course and basically audit it but without any paperwork. We went to the first one last week (uni just started last week here)...the prof is great and dd was thrilled!
I don't know if they do this in all countries but just thought I'd mention it in case it's possible in other places as well....
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I'm a 'keep the extra books' person - mostly because we've always had topics that weren't explained in a way that dc could understand in every math book I think...and so then we look at other math books to see if it's understandable with a different presentation....
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For us, discussions tend to happen for coursework where the 'teacher' has to be involved...Eg British Lit...the book was so chaotic, that the only way dd could manage was with help...But it was a great base, not that I like the book but just the literature...Then economics, was another good one - where the book needed help....
Last year it was AP French that gave a base...with the cultural questions
So it's good to have a course or two that 'require' mom....
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Some word processors will give you an analysis of your document that includes reading level (Flesch-Kincaid grade level with Microsoft Word). I bet there are other tools on the Internet that would do the same. Shooting for 3-5th grade level or so would be good for simplistic writing. Keep in mind we are talking about sentence structure/length in addition to vocabulary.
I never knew such an analysis existed - that's very helpful! thank you!
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I really appreciate the ideas since I have no experience!
Cultural differences? Probably. But a good journalist writes to the level of his/her intended audience. I've written freelance articles for a variety of newspapers and magazines. Each one has it's own demographics and own style. Daily newspapers vary greatly! I have always taught that clear, concise language is more important than a certain vocabulary level. While I would use a word like eponymous in an editorial in our local daily newspaper, I probably wouldn't use it in an entertainment piece in the same paper. Learning to adapt your reporting and writing to your audience is part of learning journalism.
A fun semester would be for her to explore all the various writing needs in a newspaper or magazine -- hard news, editorials, local news, ad copy, etc. she could mock up her own newspaper and fill it with her own work illustrated with her own photos and political cartoons. :)Those are good ideas! I see your point about writing changing even within one newspaper...and it does seem like a very good exercise to practice writing to different audiences. I remember when I had just left high school and had to write my first paper for college, an older friend commented that it was like I was just talking...I hadn't changed to a more official format.
It's actually a serious point in French writing...there were lots of questions about the different 'registre de langue'...so even at Jr Hi level, they had to learn to adjust vocabulary and phrasing. But it's only just now that I think of applying that to English in the same way....
Joan, it has been a while since I was in school, and I'm sure my texts are outdated. However, I'll try to dig them out and see which ones I liked best.
Renaissance Mom is completely right about writing for the intended audience. For instance, the language of the New York Times is very different than USA Today. I think I would still shoot for 3rd grade level for articles because you ARE looking for something different to offer her. It was very challenging in college switching between writing for an academic audience and writing for a general (and sometimes uneducated) audience. It is a simplistic goal to shoot for, anyway.
Now I'm wondering how to grade this type of writing....I guess if I'm reading newspapers online I'll be able to get a better picture...We get the International New York Times so probably as you say, the language is different already.
Yes, please let me know if any of your books look like a good fit...
Our Introduction to Journalism class uses "Journalism: Who, What, When, Where, Why, And How", and our teacher reports that it's good.
Thank you for the idea. I've looked at the student handbook for a course description and found this:
•First Year: Reporting and Writing (FY), Media and Society (S), Journalism Ethics (S), 2 Workshops (S)
but I'm not sure if it's a 1/2 credit course which is all she has time for...Also I'd like to see a better description of the course. But don't worry about doing it for us because I don't want this to be a course that she has to keep a certain pace so we wouldn't be signing up....She will have other courses which are stressful and will need to be able to fit this one in on weeks that the load is lighter in the others.
But your comment did get me looking at the UNESCO Journalism curriculum since the handbook says your course is based on it, which has some useful ideas such as:
Compare news coverage of any selected issue or content in two or more newspapers or media channels or news outlets. Analyse differences in coverage and reasons why. Ideally select one national, one global, and one local news outlet...
Thanks all!
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Decide if you want to do print or broadcast (or both).
Basically, you would teach writing the 5Ws, putting the story in pyramid form (where the most important information is at the top), writing in simplistic terms (think 3rd grade vocabulary), and interviewing skills. If you wanted to do broadcast, your student could video herself doing stories and/or upload to youtube. You could work on public speaking skills, proper diction, etc.
If you want to get really technical on the writing, you could look into AP style format, but if she has no interest in doing it in the future, it isn't really necessary. Pull newspapers and magazines, watch broadcasts, and analyze and discuss.There's also the rabbit trails of computer-based and web-based publishing, media law and ethics, etc.
In its simplest form, assign or come up with a story idea, research and interview 2+ sources, write and edit story. Off the top of my head, I think my college paper required around 300 words for a story. You could alternate learning about a technique one week and writing the following week.
Your skeleton plan is very helpful.
I think we'll just stick with print since oral skills don't count towards English with the umbrella school we use from Florida. But what you've written looks interesting....
We could just look at AP style format so she knows what it is (since I don't :-))
The computer/web based publishing trail is great too...
You could go to your local used bookstore and browse the used college texts to see if anything appealed to you. I think it would be pretty easily done without using a text at all, though.
I had to laugh here since we don't have this kind of used bookstore...so I have to depend on bookfinder.com and other sites -which make it very hard to peruse the books...If you have a recommendation or two I'd be grateful...basic texts....
writing in simplistic terms (think 3rd grade vocabulary),
This guideline really got me thinking....Over here, the headlines on the fliers on the boxes which hold newspapers for sale - tend to have words I've never heard of...I mean just one of the words in the headline will be completely new. And I think my vocabulary in French must be higher than 3rd grade level. Now these aren't the tabloid type which definitely have simpler titles...But I'm wondering if one of the ways they pique interest here, is to use words that people don't know to get them to buy the paper to find out what that word means.....I wonder if this is a French thing to do that. It's been ages since I've noticed fliers on newspaper boxes in the US - in fact, I don't think they have them...you can just see the headlines through the grill if I remember correctly.
So now you've got me wondering about cultural differences in journalism - have you ever heard of any?
https://www.newsu.org/courses#table
This has a TON of free online lessons on different topics for Journalism.
There is a LOT there - thank you!
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I don't think she'll be a journalist, but since she's done British literature and AP Eng language and may also be doing Classical or World Lit, I thought Journalism would add variety. She's hoping to graduate early so we have to do 1 1/2 credits next year.
It's just for one.
Another of my offspring took a college course and used The Complete Reporter but it looks pretty dry and too sophisticated...
We have the possibility of visiting our local paper for a 'meet the press' type morning.
Thank you!
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I really just think it depends on the child. Making generalizations seems pointless to me.
Yes - but this is exactly the difference between education here and in the US...University track is so time consuming that students don't have time for much else, especially with the level required for the two foreign languages (which include argumentative essays and an oral exam with literature analysis). There isn't much of the "develop your individuality" or 'explore your talents' mentality. It's about passing the exams....except Italy has made a small adjustment as I learned recently...
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Hi All,
I'm wondering if anyone has developed a journalism course? and if so, what materials you used? any advice?
It will only be for 1/2 credit...
Thank you for any help!
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There is the Health by Glencoe book discussed on this thread
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/443581-need-suggestions-to-help-pass-health-class-test/
(FYI - we didn't end up doing all those quizzes because we had real life needs that came up and then we did discussion and research times)
Here are some other Health threads...
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/481513-high-school-health/http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/215928-life-management-skills-health-course-variations-in-fl/
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/477111-four-books-to-add-to-my-dds-health-curriculum-suggestions/ -
I've opened that page in Google Chrome and it translates the whole page. Lots of great books for me to look through and see if I can find English translations.
I've thought of answering you many times when not online, so I'm sorry this has taken so long!....I would read the summaries on Wikipedia before buying them - some are very questionable...
I need a digital recorder recommendation for son's classes..
in High School and Self-Education Board
Posted
Do you know if it's legal to record in public classes/ conferences, etc? I was big on recording in my college days and would like to do it even now...but last summer I was told by my BIL policeman(in the USA) that it's illegal to record someone without permission. You can do silent video recordings, but not with audio and not just audio without permission. Or is there a difference in educational settings?