Kathie in VA
-
Posts
1,167 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Blogs
Classifieds
Store
Posts posted by Kathie in VA
-
-
I need some hive thoughts here.
I have my dialectic and rhetoric guys in a TOG co-op that also offered a grammar / writing class elective. I signed them each up because it was going to go through the progymnasmata exercises and even link their writing to our history / literature when possible. Sounded good. Otherwise we would just continue doing the progym at home.
Problem is I'm "thrown off" by the assignments. They aren't what I expected to see for using the classical methods of teaching writing and following the progymnasmata. Looks more like creative writing with the progymnasmata exercises as a writing prompt. :confused:
Can I get opinions from the Hive on this? I just want to make sure I'm not ... off base. :001_huh:
First, they both had a few basic creative writing assignments and now she is first getting to the progym exercises. Here are the first two week's assignments:
DIALECTIC:
last week:
In at least a page and a half, I want you to write me a fable of your own creation like we talked about in class. I told you the famous fable about the crow and the water. Remember that fables always end with a moral, a lesson that is specifically stated at the end. Mine was "Necessity is the mother of invention." That is your conclusion - you just tell the story and use that to conclude. Please make it a page and a half, double space with 12 point font (since some of you asked).
this week:
Next week, you will be editing the papers that you’re giving me this week. However, you’ll need something to do in the meantime. This week, you wrote a fable. And now, I want you to do it again, with a different twist.
This time, I want you to create a fable with the material you’ve been going over in history. What I mean is this. For example: you studied Ancient Egypt, (don’t pick this since we already did a paper on this). I want you to pick an aspect of Egyptian culture that has a moral to it. If I was to use this example, I might talk about how they were resourceful. They had to adapt their civilization to the cycles of the Nile and they used the dryness of their area to preserve their bodies, which informed their religion. At the end, I would blatantly state: “necessity is the mother of invention.†(it’s ok to use something familiar). The moral should be easy - something you can think of quickly. Please don't stress too much about this part. It could be as simple as "following the true God helps your country" or "always tell the truth."
Here’s the format I want you to use:
First, pick a civilization and a moral. Then begin.
Paragraph 1: Introduction (who are you talking about and what are you talking about them?)
Paragraph 2: Pick something about this civilization that illustrates the moral – talk about it.
Paragraph 3: Pick another something and do the same thing.
Paragraph 4: Pick another something and do the same thing.
Paragraph 5: No conclusion, but just state the moral all by itself. This will only be one short sentence, so it's not really a paragraph, just a different section.
The whole thing should be rather short, but with a proper amount of details
RHETORIC:
last week-
Confirmation
This week, we’re going to start on the classical Greek writing exercises called the Progymnasmata. We don’t have time in the school year to do them all, but we are going to do several and we’re going to start with a confirmation. As the name suggests, you are going to confirm something. What you’re going to confirm is this: a myth or legend. I want you to pick a legend or a myth:
Myth - is a traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society
Legend - is An unverified story handed down from earlier times, especially one popularly believed to be historical.
Your paper will look like this - each number is a separate paragraph (at least)
Introduction (tell us about the story in general – what is your paper about? no specifics here)
What is the story? This should be REALLY interesting and colorful, so don’t make this boring.
paragraph one – praise the person who told you this story (either your mother because she told you or the Alaskan people who are so trustworthy and this is their tale, etc.)
Confirm the story in way #1: (the story is probable, possible, true, logical, helpful, fitting, appropriate, etc.)
Confirm the story in way #2 (pick another way from the above suggestions or your own)
conclude – remember to restate and conclude in new wording. You are trying to persuade me (smoothly) to believe in something that might sound a little crazy. Confirm it for me!
this week--
No one handed in last week's paper, they thought it was due this week. So they have another week.
So what do you think?
-
I too would think that "creating" a fable would not be following the progym, but other than pulling your student(s) or just have them do the assignments as asked (knowing it's not what the progym really is) I don't know what to tell you.
Thank you for your comments. This really bothered me but then I wasn't sure it should... or if I was even right. Although, I have gone through too many of the CW books to not know the progym I guess.
-
When I taught CW Aesop A in a co-op, I gave them the assignment to write their own fable AFTER we had gone through the whole book. They had guidelines that would ensure they incorporated the skills learned that year (such as varying utterances, synonym substitution, creating dialogue, etc.). It turned out to be a fun reward for them, as they read their papers aloud and were praised for demonstrating their knowledge of CW skills. I would not do this at the beginning of the class, however. What would be the point (except to have fun, I suppose)? I am not following the teacher's reasoning on this one.
Do you have her syllabus? Maybe she plans to get on the "traditional" track after this assignment? I would find out before pulling them.
Yes I have her syllabus. She is going thru the progym much faster than CW but I knew that one. I've seen another co-op nearby that does the whole progym in 2 years...but they do it twice for better understanding. She only planned to spend 2 weeks on fables. I was willing to deal with this on the idea that they would get a survey of the skills...I've done CW with my older two (Aesop, Homer, Maxum, Chrea, and I have Herodotus on the shelf but we didn't get to it). My older two were getting tired of the same focus for so long, so I thought varying it might be a nice switch.
But I'm really bothered that this is not really a classical method... seems more like creative writing with the progym exercises as prompts/guidelines. I don't think she either agrees with the approach or understands it.
I'm so glad to have you all to talk to as there is no one here who will understand whether or not she is following the progym or even why I see this as important. kwim?
-
Have you talked to the co-op teacher? I'd be disappointed like you are if pro-gym wasn't pro-gym, but before pulling my child out, I'd express my concerns to the teacher.
Yea I did that. She said she used this method before and has seen improvements. She said her " thinking is that we both imitate (through teaching the structure and the overall method) and create (by writing their own work within the overall structure)."
However *I* just don't think this is the intention of the classical methods of instruction. It just seems opposite to me of the idea of the progym. If all I wanted was "improvement" in their writing I could send them to school or just have them write anything. Basic improvement occurs with any type of writing. I think using a specific method has other goals.
-
bumping
thinking of pulling them out of the writing class
:glare:
-
ug what did I do
I joined a co-op for hist & lit. then found out they hired a teacher for writing. I wasn't going to sign up for it as I prefer to teach via the progym (either CW or WWE/WWS). then I found out that they were going to teach writing via the progym and tie it to the history/lit classes. Okay this sounded great, I joined that also.
They finally got around to assigning their first progym writing assignment...the fable ....dialectic kids get to CREATE a fable. ??huh? create? what happened to studying a fable and writing your own version of it?? Nope, they were told to come up with a moral that they want their fable to teach and write their fable using the moral as their conclusion.
this is grating at my nerves.... this is not how I see following the progym
Am I way off here??
-
I fought this for awhile also. *I* would say they were behind but then I was told to just work with them where they were. Okay we did that. I does help. Turns out they know well what they know, which may be better then others their level. ...and not knowing what we didn't cover normally isn't so bad.
When is it a problem? It's a big problem when they really can't take the next level in science because they don't have the math required. Sorry son, no you can't move on to physics without having done algebra II, not happening. Bad enough we managed to get through Honors Chem while also first taking Algebra 1. ug. Oh and no, I'm not signing you up for the SATs till after Alg 2 and Geometry.
Heads up my younger darlings, you will not fall so behind in math!
-
Thanks.
I guess I'm really concerned with telling the students that all they need to read is the core to answer their questions....but now I'm not sure. So if they can't find an answer it could be they didn't look hard enough or it could be they wasted their time because the answer is in the In-depth books. It would be nice if TOG was clear on this issue.
For now I'll tell them to check the teachers notes whenever they can't find information in the core resources... I just hope they don't give up too soon or search for too long.
ug.
-
I started TOG y1 with the intention of doing hist-core & geography. So I purchased the books for history core and geography. I chose not to get the in-depth books. We just did week one and there was a Rhetoric geography location to be mapped that was not in our TOG resources for Rhetoric. It is in the teachers notes and even in the history-core book for Dialectic, but it is not in the reading assignments for Rhetoric. So I need to know if the in-depth books are needed for any of the Rhetoric work. I know we can always just dip into the teachers notes but I'm leading a Rhetoric class and would rather not drive the whole class crazy.
tia
-
I would say phonics/ reading is most important. Then comes math. Falling behind in math throws off what they can take for science in high school.. I also agree with learning grammar while young. FLL was great for my kids.
-
I can relate. This year I will have 2 high school kids (one taking classes at the cc), 1 kid in 7th, 1 in 2nd AND a 20month old gal (... And the 22 month puppy). :eek:
We'll keep the toddler busy with ... :D hmm time to plan this out better...
puzzles, toys (new or hidden), scribbling, hmm wonder how much those little kid trampolines cost, my tablet with baby games, and books...she already likes to hear stories.
-
I'm just placing my order for TOG y1 I'm ordering the tabs for our main book. How do you set up the students notebooks? Should I consider tabs for their notebooks also? My TOG kids will be 11th-R., 6th-D., 2nd-LG., (with a baby and 12th grader doin their own things). We will be in a co-op so I will need to consider traveling with these notebooks.If you don't set them up with the 36 week tabs then how do you have them setup?
thanks for any help!
:lurk5:.
-
I need to pick a spelling program for my little gal. She is going into 2nd grade. She is almost finished with AlphaPhonics now, might be done before fall.
I usually use How to Teach Spelling, and still might. However I remember that the dictation gets to us after awhile so I thought I see what else was out there.
I like simple, easy to use programs, phonics based, workbook, independent or close to it, (no pieces all over the place...toddler aboard!)
We also like Megawords here but that doesn't start till 4th grade...so I'd need something to lead into that or something to just stick with till the end.
I'm looking at:
How to Teach Spelling
Rod & Staff- Spelling by Sound & Structure
CLP's Building Spelling Skills
I like that HTTS & SSS teach the why's but I do have "The ABC's and all their Tricks" to help out.
Do SSS and BSS require the teachers txt or can you just use the workbook?
Thanks for any feedback!
-
They do recommend that you teach formal logic with a supplemental program. As a matter of fact, they suggest that if you have not done so already, that unit 2 in year 1 is a great time. The discussions for the rhetoric level begin to walk the student through logical analysis of statements and presuppositions.
I can't speak to rhetoric as a subject itself because I have to admit I don't really understand the nuances of what would be taught in such a class. (Sorry!)
Thank you, this is helpful. Where did you find this information?
Tapestry does not teach formal logic and rhetoric. Adding a formal logic class can be simply done without considering Tapestry. Adding a formal rhetoric program may need some thought if you plan to do some of the Tapestry writing projects as the two will overlap. You'll just want to make sure you aren't over killing on the writing.Okay that is what I was wondering. I know that rhetoric is taught within the CW program but I didn't realize that the study of rhetoric was so tied to writing. Goes to show that I more to learn before I teach! We hired a writing teacher. Since she will be following the progymnasmata, I'll ask her if she will be including any lessons on rhetoric.
-
We will be starting a new co-op using TOG y1. Since we will have a few high schoolers, I was just wondering about teaching formal logic and a rhetoric class. I know the subjects from TOG are written for the logic and rhetoric levels, but does it teach "logic" and "rhetoric"? If not then would you consider it necessary or beneficial to teach these as separate courses? I know we can always add this courses on but would rather not add to the work load if possible.
So what do you think? Does anyone add logic and/or rhetoric courses to TOG?
Tia!
8
-
Writing With Skill is the logic stage book in SWBs new writing curriculum. WWEase, is the grammar stage and Writing With Style will be for rhetoric stage.
I used some of WWE and WWSk and liked them both. WWSkill is written more to the student, this helps promote independent study. The TE tells you what to go over if the student has problems with each part of the assignment. I think there will be 4 workbooks (4th - 8th grade), last year the 4th grade wkbk came out.. I think the next one comes out this fall but I'm not sure.
hths
-
Just wondering if TOG yr 1 uses SWB's History of the Ancient World for any part of their rhetoric studies. I see they mention SOTW FOR grammar stage textbook, Streams of Civilizations for dialectic textbook and Western Civilization for rhetoric textbook, but that is in their online sample...other choices have changed perhaps this has also.
Also wondering how many actually use a textbook with TOG. I always liked working from one spine and then digging deeper with other books... Like we do with SOTW. We will be doing TOG with a coop and I'm wondering if I should get a textbook or if it will lead to too much or just not be necessary.
Thanks for any help!. :bigear:
-
Kathie,
If you email them and get a response can you please post here. I am interested to hear what they have to say.
Thanks!
Sure, here ya go:
The TT*series covers all of the same topics as the other publishers. If you go through Pre-Calculus, your student will have covered everything and will be ready for Calculus 1. I think some of the talk about TT and rigor comes from when certain topics are covered, not whether they are covered. For instance, some people have asked why TT doesn't cover logs in Algebra 2 (we cover it in Pre-Calculus). We sequenced the topics in a way that we felt would maximize student learning. Traditionally, logs was always covered in Pre-calculus. That's where it fits conceptually. We felt that it would be difficult to cover the topic in sufficient depth if we crammed it into Algebra 2.
*
There's been a big push in recent years among school publishers (because of the standards movement) to push topics lower and lower down the curriculum. They still cover the topics in the higher grades but they cover them in the lower grades too. That's why logs are now in Algebra 2 (and some books are even putting*some logs material*in Algebra 1). We think this is a*mistake. If you're not ready*to understand a topic conceptually then*exercise degenerates into rote learning. Also, putting too many topics into a book doesn't give us*enough room to adequately explain the topics that should be covered at that level. That's a huge problem for us because our books are designed for independent learners. We have more explanation than anybody.*
*
The TT series is very much oriented to the college bound student. If your daughter finishes with us and works hard, she will definitely be ready for college level math. Keep in mind that over 50% of public school students who go on to college are now required to take remedial math courses before they can enroll in true college math. Many of them are having to go back before algebra and do basic math coursework. Yet those students used the topic heavy public school textbooks and many of them went through*Pre-Calculus and even Calculus while still in high school.*In our view, the key to math education is learning the important concepts extremely well, not rushing through a laundry list of topics*too quickly.*
*
As far as the difficulty level goes, the TT high school courses are about as difficult as the SAT and ACT exams. Pre-calculus is on par with the SAT II math test. This is appropriate for college bound high schoolers. If a book is too difficult it can break the student's confidence and even cause him/her to give up on the subject.*
*
*
Regards,
Brian
*
-
It really depends on what those 20 new lessons contain...are they adding meatier word problems--and other concepts they left out of their first edition that were standard for other Algebra 2 texts???
Your right. Think I'll send that question to them... It does make a difference.
You can't judge Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 on TOC alone-- Often the Algebra 2 text will have nearly identical TOC to its partner Algebra 1 text--but the problems are harder/messier in Algebra 2.
One danger with this program in the 'new and improved' series is that students may opt to not work the whole problem out...
This will really HURT the student when it comes to college math as you MUST show the steps used to solve the problems in order to get credit!
If you do use this program make sure your student writes and solves ALL problems in a math notebook BEFORE entering the answer into the computer.
Agreed. I'm big on having them write out all the steps. ;-)
Thanks for your input!
comments added above in purple...
-
I know this will not be out till Aug 2012. I'm just looking at the new features and TOC:
http://www.teachingtextbooks.com/v/vspfiles/tt/Algebra2.htm
Anyone care to compare? I have read so many say that it is not complete enough, for a math/science college bound student, in comparison to the scope of other Algebra 2 courses, but I only have Algebra 1 books here.. I do see that my son will probably test right out of the first 7 chapters or so... He just finished a class using Jacobs Algebra 1.
TIA!
:lurk5:
-
I just saw this... Khan Academy has the lessons for Singapore Math 3a! These are free & they plan on adding all of them.
http://www.khanacademy.org/test-prep/singapore-math/#test-prep/singapore-math
-
has anyone had experience with any of these for Algebra Ii?
Aleks
Khan academy
??
-
All I can say is that I get what you are saying since I'm there also. My de went through this last year but we got on her case early enough for her to pull through with okay grades. This year she is in 11th grade, just turned 17. I was sick for about a month.. Combine that with a few other interuptions and her getting sick and she never did catch up. She was taking 3 outside classes. I pulled her out of one, creative writing.... Cause I figured catching up in a writing class would be really hard and I can just have her work on some grammar/ SAT prep for the 2nd half. Now it turns out that she still didn't catch up in her science class (Anatomy). She got a B the 1st and and an F the second...so she wants to make it up by doing the tests in the book for a grade...she does know the material well...she just hated the class cause it was boring to her.
Our plan is for her to take all classes next year at NOVA CC which doesn't really look at her grades.. :glare: she has always been the problem one...smart but prioritization challenged! So so much for summer break for her... Time to work on English and now more Anatomy! Perhaps I'll even charge her for those classes...she does have a job that she wants to keep. Although it seems that keeping her to ~8 hrs/ week might have been too much...though she will still argue against that idea.
-
has anyone used or considered Hillsdale College's course on the constitution?
Health - Nutrition - Have you seen the Swiss Food Pyramid?
in High School and Self-Education Board
Posted
Thanks, this looks interesting.