Every time I see your name I think "It's SQ again!" And it's funny, because though I've never met you, in my mind, you have Fiona's voice, LOL! AND you have given me more food for thought - I hadn't even thought of those things you mentioned. I was trying to think of reasons to CONTINUE handwriting (longer pieces), and couldn't really think of any off the top of my head. I think I will keep up the handwriting a few more years, but maybe introduce typing in a few years, too. Meanwhile, I'm still contemplating (and hoping for answers here) about how to help ds next year with writing a little bit more. I just may have to let him write the first few sentences of a narration/outline, and me finish it for him, until his fingers get more comfortable. I don't want to hold him back on narrating his great thoughts - yet I don't want him to completely switch over to typing. Oh the things I worry about - I'm sure I'll look back in 20 years and laugh.

Yeah, that's funny - ds is almost 10, and he knows more about computer programming than I ever learned, but he still takes awhile to tie a shoe!

That all makes sense to me! Thank you.

Another Typing Instructor rec. Thanks so much!

Now, this explanation is what I was looking for...and you narrowed it down for me, to the fact that typing can be practiced with short compositions in the logic stage. Another question: since you do that, can you explain how you organize on a weekly basis what gets typed and what gets handwritten and why? My ds is starting grade 5 next year and I'm doing some thinking ahead for a boy who is capable of longer narrations, but can only handwrite two or three sentences before he crumbles. Thanks!

Aha, this is good info. for me to know, too. I think I'm narrowing it down to Typing Instructor and Mavis Beacon to look into.

The SpongeBob info is helpful, thank you.

I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out for dc here. :)

nt

Do you mix typing and handwriting, then, for your 5th grader's writing assignments this year? If so, how does that pan out on, say, a weekly basis?

We have a Mac, too, and your info. is good to know, since I've seen MB recommended before - I think it has been around for awhile, hasn't it? So, while your kids are learning to type through the logic stage, do you still have them write things by hand? How does this go? Like for writing narrations, or outlines (if you do either of these things?)? Or do you just let them type their writing assignments?

Do you have a favourite typing program that you use?

So what do you think about handwriting vs. typing in the middle grades? The reason I'm asking is because ds is in grade 4, and is the typical boy who struggles to write two or three sentences, yet he narrates much more than that if I write for him. I'm just wondering about transitioning him in the next year or so, to outlining and longer narrations on his own - do I have him write more by hand or do I just teach him to type, and continue his handwriting with dictation separately. I know typing will happen sooner or later simply because of the world we live in, but does handwriting go down the tubes?? That's my dilemma.

Thank you soooo much once again for chatting with me about WRITING! You and Janice in NJ have helped me when I've panicked in the past. I know I can trust the advice and resources in WTM and on the writing CD, but I just have a hard time sometimes putting all of it together into a bigger picture - that's just a personal struggle I have - with piecing thoughts together. And then I panic. And chat here. And go back and read my WTM and CD notes. And read other posts I've printed off in the past (I printed off your post from today, too, so I can remember this conversation - if I remember to read my notes before I post here in a panic again, LOL!!!!!) Guess that's why I want so much to learn WELL how to teach writing to my kids, so they don't have this struggle. As Janice in NJ says, self-education first. ROTFL on your comment about all your pristine condition writing curriculums! And I have to admit here, I have no idea what a 5 paragraph essay is. I mean, I know it's an essay consisting of 5 paragraphs, but what is the significance of this thing that I see discussed here time and again?

My dad was diagnosed with small cell lung cancer in 2001 - he was told by his doc that 75% of people with this type of cancer do not survive beyond the first year. He went through a year of chemo and radiation with no surgery, and has been cancer free ever since. To me, it was a miracle. No guarantees, of course, but the miracle enable me to get to know him more in that time than in any other time of my life, and I thank God for that.

I liked seeing all your details of how you are doing writing in logic stage, in all the content areas, using R&S!! :) I printed it off so I could mull it over. I think I can see now how I might use some of those lessons (like the types of paragraphs that you mentioned) to do writing in science or history...or at least as we do the lessons, it might become clearer to me. I think I've chatted on here before with Janice in NJ and maybe you, too, about this. I thought, though, that I should have been applying the grammar stage writing lessons across the curriculum, but decided not to for now - instead concentrating on the dictation and narration, while letting ds absorb what he could from reading through the writing lessons in R&S. I went back and dug around in my WTM book, plus looked at a set of SWB's writing seminar notes online to try and get a better idea of the overall goals for writing for logic stage. There are some items mentioned in the writing CD and on these notes that are not mentioned in WTM - so I tried to piece things together in my mind. It appears to me that logic stage writing is about outlining to learn to analyze a passage, rewriting from that outline to - practice imitating good writers? put the facts in the passage read back together in your own words? It also appears to me to be about learning, with new layers each year in R&S, to do different types of writing - that are to be used for rhetoric stage writing. THEN, I looked in the rhetoric section of WTM - the beginning of the language arts chapter talks about how the student has been learning all sorts of writing skills in the first 8 grades, and now rhetoric stage is the time to put all those skills to work. In the chapter on great books, there is a part that talks about writing about the book read (as taught in TWEM), and this talks about USING the various types of writing previously learned in the writing programs over the years. So what do you think - do you think that the grammar and logic stages are the time to learn, learn, learn all the writing skills, in order to do various types of writing throughout the rhetoric stage (this is probably something obvious to everyone else but me....yet, I feel like I maybe have talked about this before here.....I really need to get out of the house and clear up my mind, LOL! :)) The other thing I don't get, though, is how to transition ds from reluctantly writing two or three sentences of a narration, to writing possibly more sentences than that for a history outline, or writing two or three paragraphs for a literature narration. I wonder if I should just keep on writing for him into 5th grade, as he keeps practicing dictation, or if I should let him learn to type, or what? Any advice on the transition? Maybe 5th grade won't be the time to transition? How will I know? His narration skills are pretty good, I think - he's quite articulate - just can't physically write that much without protest. I think I'm worrying too much about this - but it sure helps to have someone else to talk with. :)

Alana, Thanks for directing me to that website - it did make things a little clearer. Plus, I found this paragraph to be helpful: "The dialectic stage deals with analysis and concentrates on developing logical thinking skills. It is the perfect time to begin learning how to construct correct, clear, and logical writing. Since sentences are the building blocks of all other forms of writing, we begin the dialectic stage with an in-depth analysis of sentences. Sentences are used to build paragraphs, the focus of the second year of the curriculum. We conclude the dialectic stage with much practice in clear and well-ordered essay-writing, using the building blocks of sentences and paragraphs previously learned."

I learned to type in high school, so when I see that kids here are learning much younger than that, I wonder why. So, how do you decide when it's time to teach typing to your child? Is there any benefit in waiting a little longer, like til high school or 7th or 8th grade? Or is it more beneficial to teach them when they are younger? Then, how in the world do you decide what typing program to use? I don't remember the books we used in typing class, so I have no reference, except for what I see recommended in WTM. But then I see free typing programs online, so just how do you know what to pick?? Are there differences I should know about between free and paid-for programs? Trivial questions in light of other things, but I've wondered about this for awhile. :)

Ds is starting grade 5 next summer. I've found immense help in the WTM, and SWB's Writing Without Fear CD for guidance in writing. We plan to continue with R&S for grammar and writing, since they are recommended in WTM. But, now I feel like I need to "own" my reasons for using R&S (or whatever other writing program I might look at - though I don't *want* to look at other programs, for fear of getting confused!! LOL). I feel I need to have a bigger picture of what I am trying to accomplish in teaching writing - what are the goals to reach by the end of logic stage - I am embarrassed to say, I don't really know! I remember a part of WTM that said that in the first four grades, students vary wildly in their skills, but the overall *goal* is to bring them up to 4th grade skills by the *end* of 4th grade. That idea has kept me on course over the past four years. For other subjects like math, I have vague goals - cover basic arithmetic to prepare for algebra, etc.. Or for grammar/spelling/vocab. - master these so that writing is clearer. Latin - so that English is easier to study. History/Science/Lit. are all content areas, and I know we need the skills to study these. No problem. But I guess from reading so many writing posts, and reading about so many writing programs, I'm just confused about just what logic stage writing is all about, and what the end goals are. I understand that outlining is for pulling apart a text and examining it. I understand that longer narrations are for putting those pieces back together. But, how does R&S writing or other writing programs fit into the logic stage picture? What are the goals of using the exercises, and how do you practically implement these exercises into the four years of writing practice? Is the goal simply to learn different types of writing, practice them, then use them in rhetoric stage? I can go back and listen to my writing CD again for things I missed (which I'm sure are many, since I concentrated on grammar stage), but I'd like some input here, too. Or maybe I've been inside in January for too long, LOL!! Thanks for any thoughts.

This is something I couldn't put into words in my mind previously. I like that WTM tells you what skills are important and how to teach them, then how to use them to learn whatever content area you want. I find your posts encouraging and interesting.

Your post and the interview with her are extremely encouraging to me.

Jessica, no advice about your lecture (have fun, though!), but wow, thanks for sharing that article. It is really helpful to me, to see how some of the WTM suggestions are played out in real life, and why.

Just the WRTR book.

I use part of the Spalding method from the Writing Road to Reading. I just use it for teaching how to read, how to print letters and do cursive letters, and teaching how to spell. I use it alongside FLL, copywork/dictation, R&S grammar, etc.. I guess you could call it the "how to read and spell" part of our classical methods. :) But I don't use the grammar/writing part of WRTR.

We did. When ds was in 1st grade, it was easy for him to chant down through a list of the first 20 pharaohs - he loved saying the names as we figured out how to pronounce them. He's older now and is memorizing a list of CDN prime ministers, and we did that with a song (Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star) to make it easier. I started off with the pharaohs list simply because it was in WTM and I was relying on WTM to get me started with educating my kids. When we get to Ancient history again next year, though, dd, who will be in 2nd grade, will memorize it, too. I DO think it's useful as a "peg" on which to hang future historical information they might study. That's the use of memorizing such lists - to use as reference later on. You just have to pick which lists you think are important to memorize. For this reason, I've later added other memory work such as Bible passages, Books of the Bible, Canadian Prime Ministers, etc.. If you want to cut down on work but still add in memorizing such history lists, how about cutting the poem memory work to once a month? Or just having her memorize the list 4 or 5 at a time? hth