Frances
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Posts posted by Frances
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Would someone be willing to gift the article in the series about the homeschooling researcher, Brian Ray? I’d really like to read it but don’t have a subscription. Thank you!
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1 hour ago, SKL said:
The freakout over how we compare to other countries is one of the reasons why high school is not developmentally appropriate for the average child.
There's a whole thread about APs on the high school board. My beef is that AP has taken the place of "college prep" for grades 11-12. Let's take English for example. There are 3 options in our public school: (a) general English, which is designed for kids who aren't college bound; (b) AP English, which purports to teach at the college level; and (c) actual college English (DE). There's nothing for college bound kids who just want to prepare for college level work. So they take AP, even though it isn't a fit. My other beef is that schools push AP without much consideration for what the individual child actually needs. Just because you're "interested in" a career related to life science doesn't mean that college-level biotech should be your 11th grade science course. (Personal rant over.)
I don't know how it is in other countries, but here, you need a bachelor's degree (maybe even a master's) to do a lot of things that aren't super intellectual. So yes, that puts pressure on kids who aren't born geniuses.
I don’t think it’s the freak out about how we compare to other countries that make our schools, not just high schools, developmentally inappropriate for many students. Because unlike the US, many other countries do follow research proven best practices when it comes to education and they also have much more educational uniformity across the country. In the US, that’s more likely to be the exception, not the norm. Many of these other countries are tracking students and offering viable alternative paths for those not college bound. Many are not pushing developmentally inappropriate academics in the early grades and have actual math teachers teach math from the early grades, not to mention starting foreign language instruction much earlier. There are lots of lessons we could learn from other counties when it comes to education.
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At my son’s school, the only departmental scholarships available to incoming students required that the student qualify for financial aid, so my son wasn’t allowed to apply. In some ways it made sense because in addition to $, the students got extra advising and help with getting research positions. In general, I think they were really targeting first generation college students and they used qualifying for FA as a proxy. Later, much smaller ones were available to upperclassmen.
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If you liked DC and NY, have you done Vancouver and Victoria BC? We did them separately and loved both trips, so much to see and do, both cultural and outdoors. You could easily fill 8-9 days. I would recommend September or early October. There is also Montreal and Quebec City which I haven’t done but want to some day.
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2 hours ago, SKL said:
Those things happened in all generations for sure. But one didn't have to sleep over to be molested. It happened to most if not all of my siblings without any sleepovers. The people I know who have shared with me were molested by "trusted" relatives and family friends. Statistically, it is very unusual for a kid to be molested by a person the parent didn't consider trustworthy.
There are things that have changed, at least in my personal experience. When I was a kid, the neighborhood watched the kids. Whenever we got up to something stupid, someone's SAHM / babysitter or a cranky retired neighbor would holler out the window, and we knew our folks would find out if we didn't stop. One time my sibs and I were about 10 blocks away, thinking nobody there knew who we were, and we got up to something. Somehow, someone's mom figured out where we lived and sent a group of kids over to my house to tattle to my parents.
There were multiple "weirdos" in our neighborhood. The not-weird neighbors would watch and notice if any little kids were lured into their backyards or whatever. They'd go yell at the kid to come out, and then go tell the kid's parents.
It was the "trusted friend" who ended up being the biggest creep. We used to go visit inside that house, where grooming and more occurred. My folks never found out until many years later. Oh, also, one of our [female] babysitters turned out to be a perv. I guess that's when my folks decided to just give us a housekey.
But yeah ... what's so great about sleepovers again? How is that even "independence"? It's just trading one family's rules for another family's rules.
Personally I don’t see whether someone allows sleepovers or not as some gauge of how much independence a parent allows. My son did them with his very closest friends whose families were also friends of ours. As for babysitting, I would never allow my son to do it after reading horror stories about teen boys being falsely accused of improper behavior. There are plenty of other ways for kids to practice independence. I did some babysitting growing up, but never really liked it. I far preferred my paper route and lawn mowing. Lawn mowing was way more lucrative than babysitting. My son taught a variety of classes to kids through adults across various settings (frequently without any supervision), was a summer camp leader that took groups of younger kids around town for filming, was part of ten/adult TV production crews that travelled to various sites, produced his own shows, etc. He didn’t need babysitting to practice independence.
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3 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:
I get that my experience isn’t everyone’s experience, but I live in an upper middle class neighborhood where the parents seem to be dedicated to making sure their kids unplug and get out. Elementary kids are walking to school without adults. It’s fine. There are crossing guards. Groups of kids are buzzing around the neighborhood bike paths and going to the store/ice rink/ball park/library without an adult. As free range as I was in the 80s, I didn’t live near anywhere to go. We played in the woods and bussed to school. Your physical location plays a huge part and some towns are better suited for kids to explore.
I’m guessing that a lot of my perspective comes from hanging around like-minded people. I’ve dropped an entire carload of teens at the metro station so they could enjoy DC for a day. Anyone whose parent isn’t fine with this just wouldn’t let me take their kid. I don’t know. The kids planned it and I was their Uber.
There is a level of hyper involvement when it comes to college selection. I never knew people visited SO MANY schools.
All of this also happens with most people I know. The hyper involvement and micromanagement mainly revolves around education and ECs, not going places independently or walking alone to school.
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4 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:
I’ve read about hyper vigilant helicopter parents but I rarely come across them in the wild. I’m wondering where you would even find a significant cluster of these parents to study. Involved and invested parents seem to be the norm near me but who has the energy or time to really micromanage your child’s life to the degree you’re describing unless they have extreme and likely heritable anxiety themselves?
I guess we all live in a bubble to some degree, mine is an upper middle class one where these types of parents are likely far more common. But the article also spoke to broader societal trends that likely cut across different socioeconomic classes.
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11 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:
I agree that there are cons to not encouraging independence, but it’s far from the whole picture. I’m a GenX eldest daughter. That independence didn’t prevent mental health issues, believe me!
I’ve raised my kids to be pretty darn independent. That didn’t override genetics, society, or individual emotional makeup. I’m sure it has *helped*, so yay, but heritability is strong and life is hard these days.I don’t think any one thing is ever the whole picture or sole reason.
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42 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:
I’m not sure kids are anxious because they were actively parented and not free ranged.
Are people even reading the article? It’s not contrasting active parenting with free range parenting. Parents can be actively involved in their children’s lives without being hyper vigilant and micromanaging. They can be actively parenting and still allow plenty of opportunities for risk taking, mistakes, failures, independence, etc.
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3 hours ago, Terabith said:
And that void is taken up by the digital world. Unlike many people, I don't think the internet is a net evil. I'm incredibly grateful for it as a source of information, education, and opportunity to meet people from around the world. Literally my best friends were met online. One of them saved my life. The time I spend online with people is a source of real community, support, and joy for me. The hive feels like my home, and I am so incredibly grateful for it. I LIKE social media and the way it enables me to be connected to other people. We have let our kids free range on the internet, and probably because of my kids' temperaments, I think it has been a net benefit for them as well. I was so grateful for the internet during the pandemic. I often thought about how hellacious it would have been in the 80s. For people with niche interests or who are different from people in their physical community, the internet allows you to find people who are LIKE YOU, and that is a source of wonder. It definitely has drawbacks and problems, but I'm very pro digital community. But I don't think it replaces physical, geographical, embodied freedom and community either.
I think we are saying the same thing. The ability to easily communicate with others is the one overall positive aspect of technology and the internet age. Of course it’s not a substitute for in person community.
At least where I live, volunteering is a place to get free community across ages and many of the arts organizations offer free or reduced price access to space, materials, and community. Also, we have lots of wonderful parks that are great gathering places for people of all ages. When we were at one near downtown and the river this summer, I turned to my husband and said, “It’s become like a big backyard for the city.” They keep adding new features and more and more people are gathering there. That night there were bike riders and walker, exercise classes, young adults playing volleyball, people taking prom pictures, families and couples picnicking, lots of dog walkers and runners, people setting up for an outdoor movie night, lots of music playing, carousel rides, boat rides, etc. Those at the park represented a very diverse cross section of our community.
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5 hours ago, SKL said:
It's a chicken or egg thing. It's easy to monitor, so more parents monitor, so teachers up the expectations that kids' output will be more than what most kids would do on their own. Kids whose parents don't "get involved" will be the bottom of the barrel, and everyone will know it, thanks to public announcements of who is doing great (and by implication, who isn't). Parents of bright kids who appear to be doing poorly in school will increase their "involvement" and kids' results will look better, upping the overall expectations of "kids'" output.
I have struggled with this. My mom was very hands-off with me regarding school and social stuff. But, I was self-motivated to do my school work at a high level, and also, it was relatively easy for me. Was it easier for me because I'd been on my own since day one? I don't think so, because my siblings didn't have great results despite having the same general upbringing. Also, my social skills were pretty awful; would more intentional exposure have helped? (Not that my folks had the choice back then.)
Anyhoo. I was happy with my kids' progress until that first "awards ceremony" (1st grade) when I realized the majority of the class was doing much better (grades-wise). I probably should have let it be, but there was a lot of judgment, and also, who wants their kid to be told she's inferior? So I "got involved." I do regret some of it.
Then there are what we call "busybodies" who have an opinion about what other people's kids are ready for in the neighborhood. My kids were never adventurous, but just a one-mile walk to the park (in a quiet suburb) would bring "concern" and accusations. In front of the kids, who then developed irrational fears of their own.
And it seems there are fewer young kids for our kids to play with nowadays. Without structured / supervised activities, my kids would hardly ever spend time with kids outside of school ... and without the social aspect, they wouldn't have motivation to move much. So yes, I put them in / let them join lots of activities. It seemed better than TV.
I am sure I didn't do everything right, but honestly, there are areas where my kids are ahead of where I was, as well as areas where they are behind. I guess all we can do is our best.
I'm not sure how much of the trend re mental health is due to an increase in diagnoses, and an increase in trendiness of diagnoses at school. I know lots of people who were probably "diagnosable" by today's standards, possibly including myself. I don't think my kids are a worse mess than I was as a teen.
I’d say the biggest issue here is a school awards ceremony for first graders!?! That’s crazy and very inappropriate. We didn’t even get letter grades until fourth grade and there were no awards ceremonies until middle school.
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1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:
This is a very good point.
We have lost society. As a kid, even when we didn't know our neighbors, we knew our neighbors, you know? You knew the freaky lady who sang show tunes and the family with Mary-in-the-bathtub (a barrio shrine), even if you didn't know them personally. Kids could roam and feel comfortable first in their neighborhoods, where an adult could reasonably direct help, to then branching out.
Now, we're afraid to give children any free time. Schools have stripped out recess and breaks. Regulations make it impossible for them to walk home. There are less neighborhood parks and newer houses are designed to keep privacy, not allow people to look out. "Loitering" is illegal, and more places have policies of 14+ to be alone. Too many places, even theme parks, are going cashless - so kids can't partake. Even the chocolate store wasn't able to let my child buy a single chocolate ($.75) without a card. Hospital bills are ridiculous, and minimizing injury is a goal for every environment children are in.
This isn't a parenting problem. It's a community problem. Agency has been stripped away from children due to fear and things like gun policies that make freedom hard for kids. Streets don't allow for bike riding outside of smaller neighborhoods. Community centers are built away from the center of communities. Libraries fret that tweens stop showing up but don't want them there without their parents. Nobody is willing to teach/help the next generation and be part of the community that they themselves are benefiting from.
When the old people die and quit mucking up the world with their terrible policies, maybe the next generation can right the wrongs.
My community and neighborhood must be very different than yours because here teens are welcome and encouraged to use public transportation on their own and go the YMCA and teen drop in center, teen center at the library, numerous volunteer opportunities on their own, etc. These are all centrally located and all of the outlying lower income neighborhoods have Boy’s and Girl’s Clubs which are specifically designed for children to visit alone. I was just volunteering at a week long holiday event and numerous teens were there volunteering on their own and I even met a few young adults who were reminiscing about their times volunteering as a teen at the same event. Many of the elementary aged kids in my neighborhood walk together to school and we know every child of every age by name in our neighborhood.
I do see and hear about the reduction in recess and I honestly think there should be laws against it. I’m so sick of our public schools regularly going against what research shows is best for children.
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4 hours ago, PronghornD said:
I am not convinced that this correlation is causation. I was raised to be independent, both due to my mother's philosophy and our challenging family situation. My young adult years were so terribly stressful as I floundered about on my own, being independent, not causing my mother a single bit of grief because, of course, what independent young adult seeks out parental help when floundering. My mother, ignorant of my struggles, thought I turned out wonderful, but I'm not convinced of that.
I tried to hone my parenting to the needs of my specific child, who had spent time in an orphanage prior to coming to us. My child came with issues, so I ended up reading extensively about attachment. I learned that you need to send your kid attachment signals -- that way they will feel less need to cling to you or to feel ambivalent toward you. This is why young kids act up precisely when you are busy and need them to behave! So, I conscientiously sent my attachment signals, which looked very much like hypervigilance to the casual onlooker. When my child did say they were ready for a certain level of independence, though, I immediately provided it, trusting my kid to know themself.
The results are mixed. My kid is now a functioning grad student and a wonderful person. Issues still linger somewhat, but I am not convinced that those issues are due to parental hypervigilance.
I don’t think what you were doing was the type of hyper vigilance discussed in the article. It sounds more like you were doing exactly what is research recommended for adopted children from difficult backgrounds.
I also don’t think the article is advocating for the kind of neglectful parenting you experienced, but rather nurturing involved parents who foster independence, risk taking, and maturity in their children.
I don’t think the article is advocating for hands off parenting, as some seem to imply when referencing their own childhoods. Asking about school, attending events, showing interest in what they are learning, etc. is completely fine. Children don’t need to be left to flounder with no help or guidance in order to become independent. Parents can still be very involved and nurturing without micromanaging and hyper vigilance.
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Our small family owned yard care company is taking off three weeks for the holidays. I’m guessing they might be spending it in Mexico, as that is very common here for those who grew up there. I think it’s great they are able to do well enough during the year to take off three weeks unpaid except for any holiday tips they might receive.
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I still have wonderful memories of our roofing party as a child, even our little beagle got up on the roof with us, although our roof was not nearly as steep as @Meriwether’s roof.
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It’s ludicrous that any company only recruits from Harvard. Having attended any Ivy League school for grad school, they are seriously overrated. But if you really want the connections they can bring without going to grad school, I guess you have to play the game. Personally, I don’t think it’s worth it. But then again I’ve never been interested in a jet setting, competitive lifestyle. It holds zero appeal for me. Comfortably upper middle class after coming from the lower middle class seems pretty darn good to me and my husband.
That said, I did find the article quite interesting but not surprising. Many of the elite LACs have a similar demographic, very wealthy and those who are Pell eligible without a whole lot in between. Our son would have been one of those in the middle paying full freight and while we would have paid for it had he chosen that direction, I have to admit to feeling resentful that all of the sacrifices we made to get multiple advanced degrees, the many years of living in poverty, and working while homeschooling resulted in us becoming upper middle class literally right when he was applying to colleges, so we qualified for no financial aid anywhere. I’m regularly amazed at the lifestyle some people live while qualifying for lots of financial aid, although I suppose having multiple children used to also help with that.
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14 minutes ago, Clarita said:
I am absolutely flabbergasted at how much some parents keep their children from independence. Forget walking by themselves, I've seen parents forbid their babies from eating cooked carrots because they hadn't finish "preparing" the carrot for them.
I’ve seen parents stop their preschooler from eating the “adult food” while they prepare kid’s food for them. And then they wonder why their kids are picky eaters!
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Hugs to you, it’s completely understandable to feel sad.
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1 minute ago, Ginevra said:
I have not read the article yet, but I’ve been thinking about this and a related issue for a while. (With the caveat that I know I sound like every old person ever, reflecting on all the ways my own childhood was far better than those of “kids these days”…)
But. Yes. I think, for all its wonders, the tech age is a net negative for kids being born now. I was reading something in Peter Attia’s book Outlive, where he said the average hand strength of males in their twenties is lesser than men who are now fifty when they were that age. I think about that often with my husband, because his hand strength is astounding and I am very certain it is because he has used his hands for physical tasked his entire life.
I sometimes think, kids who are currently babies and toddlers will be largely entertained by screens and not hammering wooden nails into a wooden peg bench or skipping rope. My childhood entertainments were creative, imaginative and physical. Is that even still a thing?
Theres also not a lot of trial-and-error, I think. I remember making a pie when I was probably ten or so. It was terrible, lol! The crust was like weatherstripping in texture. But oh well. I learned those instructions of not overworking the dough had a point. I wonder if kids ever do this now, or is there always an adult to swoop in with a YouTube or tic toc video. Or do t make a pie at all; just buy one.
Now get off my lawn!
Except for the ability to easily communicate with people, I think the tech age is a net negative for all of us, not just children born now.
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TMI
As neither my parents, my husband’s parents, nor my sister did this, I will say I struggle to understand the intense involvement of many parents nowadays in their children’s schoolwork and grades. I am not talking about kids with ADHD or otherwise neurodiverse or those with learning problems like dyslexia. But your average parent of your average child who is regularly checking online grade and hw portals, talking about their kid’s grades, reminding children of assignments and exams, etc. How will the child ever take ownership of school if the parent is more invested than they are? Absolutely I think the parent should be helping with hw when the child asks, modeling good organization and study skills, attending events, showing interest, etc. I’m not suggesting not being an involved, connected parent. But what I’m talking about goes way beyond this. The one semester my son was in middle school I never even made an account for the online grading system. He knew school was his responsibility and we were there for help or assistance with anything he needed. We did talk to him and show him organization/reminder systems that worked for our jobs/lives, but ultimately let him choose what worked best for him. In my generation, school was seen as the child’s job and responsibility. So many parents I see now are micromanaging their child’s lives to a degree that there is little chance for taking responsibility, maturity, and independence.
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Reciprocation is definitely a thing where I live and not just for parties or dinners, but even visiting from out of town and staying overnight. I will say we do have friends who we invite over for dinner (just them) and they only ever invite us to group parties, but that’s still reciprocation. Even our quite elderly neighbors will insist we come over for tea and cookies if they’ve been over to our house for dinner or tea or we’ve brought them some treats or done other favors for them. It might take a few months to find a time that works for everyone, but it eventually happens. If we visit out of state friends and stay with them for a few days, we make sure they know they are welcome anytime to come and stay with us and almost always they eventually take us up in the offer.
My brother once told me that their best friends had never invited him and his wife over, despite being to their house literally hundreds of times. They finally straight out asked them about it and from then on they did get occasional invitations. It was still lopsided, but no longer 100 to zero.
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I think we’re going to do something simple, a large warm skillet chocolate chip or chocolate chocolate chip cookie in the cast iron skillet with vanilla bean ice cream and a choice of hot chocolate or caramel sauce.
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6 hours ago, Bambam said:
To me it does not seem like a wise financial decision to buy a house if another party (relative or not) has to advance you money for a down payment so you can afford it. I would not do that, nor would I help the buying party by giving them money for down payment. I might offer advice/suggestions about how to save money for down payment or relocating to a cheaper area to live - all sorts of ideas. Especially now house prices are very high, and I don't think they will stay long term.
I think it will take a pretty major recession for housing prices to come down much. With inflation, it now costs much more in both parts and labor to build a new home. And when interest rates start coming down, house price will likely increase again, as competition among buyers will resume in many parts of the country. If one can afford a house now it might actually be a very good time to buy, depending on location. Then one can refinance when interest rates are lower.
That said, if someone needs a $100k gift to be able to qualify to buy as a first time homeowner, I would be concerned about whether or not they are really ready to buy. There are so many more expenses when you own vs rent.
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Parental hypervigilance as a cause of the mental health epidemic among American kids and teens
in The Chat Board
Posted
I think there is so much variation in the public school education system in the US, not just among states, but even within states and at times even within districts, that it’s almost possible to make comparisons across schools and time unless using national data and research.
Just anecdotally, my small rural high school had no AP, IB, honors, or DE classes, only taught math through pre-Calc, and very few parents had a college degree. Yet a significant portion of my graduating class received a college degree and everyone who attended finished their four year degree. And several of us went on to receive degrees from top grad and professional schools.