Roxy Roller
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Posts posted by Roxy Roller
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Hi Lucinda...I am wondering where to put my DD as well. I 'was' going to start the ALL sample after Christmas, but now I don't know where to go. She is just finishing GWG5, so I am now thinking I will do GWG6 after Christmas, but I am open to other ideas, so I will be :bigear: to this thread.
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I have had a similar situation -- kid who seems a good candidate for a science career but textbooks were clearly killing his love of science itself. There are lots of options but none of them as easy or clear as the original textbook plan.
1. Your idea of just using parts of the program seems okay. I feel so-so about that option, but haven't thought it thru.
2. Some folks just go slower and stretch out General and do Physical in 9th.
3. The kind of mentoring that Michelle described is really necessary for a lot of kids, I think. Sitting beside them and showing them how to learn from a textbook. In a public school setting, the kids would have other kids they could watch and several teachers, and they'd likely pick it up from them.
4. There are a few other Christian sciences. For instance, I used Rainbow year 1 with both my kids, which is a pricy option but I was very happy with it. AIG has a whole science program that's suitable through 8th grade (at the pace of 3 books a year). Etc.
5. You can create your own thing, like I'm doing with Biology this year (based on Biology 101 DVDs but teaching a lot myself). Lots of work, but just doing it for one class seems do-able compared with doing it for everything with my older dd.
6. Finding a "lab partner" or other type of group situation can sometimes help, by adding a bit of peer pressure or maybe camaraderie. I've done that with inviting another student to my house, although I haven't always found someone willing. Larger co-op classes are usually available, too, although it adds quite a bit of expense and a lot of time pressure.
Best wishes in your efforts,
Julie
Thank you, Julie, for your thoughtful response. My DD really does love science, but I am finding the textbook approach is killing it. Maybe it does need to be something we ease into, because she does need to be able to learn from a textbook before she hits college.:tongue_smilie:I do not mind paying the price tag for Rainbow Science if it would be a good fit. I haven't looked at AIG's products, but maybe I need to look there as well. I know that there are two or three other 7th Graders in our church who are going through Apologia GS right now too. Maybe we can arrange something to get together. So a mentor group may be a possibility. I really want her to be successful. She is discouraged and saying that maybe she can't learn science, and she will have to give up her dream of working with animals.
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Hi there,
My dd is 11 and is finishing module 4 of General Science as well (I decided to go ahead and start Apologa in 6th grade as I did the same with my ds and he did fine, plus dd loves science). Dd was also "reading along" with the MP3 version, but like your dd, she was not retaining a lot. So for this chapter I have been reading it to her, which allows her to ask questions as we go. I have also been helping her with the "on your own questions" by helping her to think through the problems (I am continuing to help her with the module summaries as well). Also, I have dd make falsh cards for all definaitions and formulas.
My dd is requiring MUCH more involvement than my son did (I actually just gave the book to ds in 6th grade and he breezed through it). I know that we could get an easier text, but dd LOVES the experiments and I do like that it is challenging her brain. Honestly, with a three year old running around, I would rather she be a bit more independent. But I think that maybe she just needs a bit more "hand holding". My goal is that by the time she reaches Biology she will be more independent.
I do not know if you have the time or inclination to do the same with your dd, but I thought I would share what we are doing since our daughters sound similar :001_smile:. Blessings!!!
Thank you, Michelle. Yes, our daughters do sound alike. I know that she would love to have me do it with her, but with 4 younger siblings in 1st to 5th Grades, I already 'do' school from 8am to 4:30pm. Maybe I have to let some other things go, so that I have time to do it with her. I will have to ponder this.
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Ds tried that same science last year at the same age and couldn't hack it. He's good at math and science, loves science, and was highly motivated to do well with a more advanced "real" science text! And he is a *very* strong reader. Nothing was sticking at all, even though I worked with him to teach him good study habits (vocabulary flash cards, note taking while reading, reviewing notes, etc.). Nothing helped. He had done so well with Sonlight Science 6 the year before, too! His older sister didn't do Gen Sci--she started Apologia with Physical Science and though that one was hard for her when she got to the math (she hates math but is decent at it, and is only slightly more than luke warm about science), she handled it fine, and then did very well in Bio. I think perhaps that book is just off or something. At least for my kids. We ended up dropping Gen Sci altogether and going with a different program last year (which we're continuing this year so ds has that Integrated Chem & Physics instead of Phys Sci which is apparently what's recommended now). I was so sure we weren't even going to *attempt* it again that I gave away the whole program!
This is good to know. Thank you!
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How about Rainbow Science? It is a much more engaging text, IMO. Everything is there for experiments so is a bit more hands on.
Apologia in any form is death in our house, too.
:iagree:I thought I responded to this thread yesterday, but I guess I got interrupted. Apologia's verbose style seems a bad fit for a student that struggles with reading. Rainbow is much more hands on, but is still a challenging middle school program (as I understand it, I looked hard, but didn't use it myself).
I am not a fan of Apologia, but I don't think that is the issue. I think the issue is that it is the exact opposite of your daughter's learning style.
I visited the Rainbow site yesterday and it does look good. The bolded above is exactly what I am wondering. One of my twins will love and devour the GS text, but that is who he is and reading lots of information is his style. My DD's is more just get to the point and tell me what I need to know and I will learn it.
Is Rainbow Science (Year 1 and 2) sufficient preparation for starting Biology in 9th Grade?
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My 7th grader is doing Sonlight Science 5: Health, Medicine, and Human Anatomy. It's WONDERFUL.
I can't stand Apologia science. Blech!! I went to nursing school, so I've had a LOT of science. It doesn't have to be boring - and I think that's exactly what Apologia does to the exciting world of science!
The SL 5 can be used by a wide range of ages - don't let the #5 put you off. What I like about it is it uses real books from a variety of publishers (Christian and secular). The notes in the IG give you a heads-up when it comes to any information that may be objectionable or that you might want to discuss further. The activity sheets are ok and a good way to reinforce the information being read, but they're not on the same academic level as Apologia or BJU or ABeka. However, the more natural way of learning is helping my ds retain the information much better than he would using a dry textbook.
I was considering Sonlight at one time, maybe I will have to go back to it.
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Only have time for a quick answer, but wanted to mention we are having a few of the same issues with General Science but I'm sticking with it for now as I think my dd would complain about any science that expects her to think and write. We've not done much formal science previously, so this is a jump for her, but I know she can do it. Here are a few resources I want to suggest in case you are unaware.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Apologia_General_Science/ You have to join the group. There are notebooking pages in the files sections that I printed out to use. As my dd reads the module, she has to fill out the pages that contain scientific definitions, On Your Own questions, study guide questions and the module summary.
http://homeschoolersresources.blogspot.com/p/general-science-fall-2011.html
My dd has enjoyed watching these supplemental videos that correspond to the module.
http://wikis.engrade.com/nctgs
I had dd use this to help her review for test, etc...
Hope that helps!
:iagree:with the above bolded part. My DD is the exact same way and we have done a lot of science in our household, but not anything formal.
Thank you so much for the links. I may be able to make this work after all.
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I have posted this in the logic forum, but I am wondering if it might be better to post it here among those of you who have BTDT.
My DD12 is currently finishing Module #4 of Apologia General Science. She is not a really proficient reader, so she 'reads' the text along with the mp3(she will do this without complaint, but doesn't seem to retain much). I love the curriculum, but it doesn't seem to be engaging her. She struggles through the On Your Own questions, she will do the labs with dad, and seems to get them, but when we get to the review questions and the tests, I have nothing but a fight and tears. She claims she doesn't know the answers.
Right now she wants to be a Vet Tech., so she knows she needs at least two sciences, and she understands that she needs to start working hard now in 7th Grade, to get there. She is still a very immature 7th grader though(barely starting puberty), so I am not sure if she needs to mature a bit.
So, my questions are:
1. Do I just let her go through the text, 'reading' it, and doing the On Your Own questions, and call it good for this year? Accepting the fact that she is just getting a surface overview of it. Do I do the same next year with Physical Science year and then step it up in 9th Grade when she hits Biology?
2. Do I make her do them? I am finding it is killing her love of science, but I am feeling the pressure of high school coming.
3. Is there another creation-based science out there that is similar to Apologia, on maybe a little easier level, that could get her through this next couple of years? She is not a great scholar, but just an average kid. I do not want to debate the ease or toughness of Apologia, because I know that there are those that feel that it is light. We are not experiencing that here.
Thanks in advance for your advice,
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Sorry, double post.
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I personally think Apologia's gs book is awful.......really, really awful. If it were my child, I would not form any assessment about ability based on the reaction to that text.
How a Plato Science? It includes lectures and constant questioning to test for understanding. https://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/index.php?option=com_hsbc_epp_order&Itemid=1024&c=1
Thanks for the link, 8. I will check it out. At this point I am open to changing texts, because I want her to retain the information, while not squelching her love of science.
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for those of you with dc working 45-60 mins, what exactly are they doing? is part of that time the teaching time, or are they doing worksheets/copying problems, etc.. in that case, how many pages are they completing in that time?
My twin 4th graders do 4 pages worth of math, as well as, time on xtramath.com to work on speeding up their math facts. This is mainly worksheet time. They do two pages in Math-U-See Delta, and then two pages in Horizons Math 3(which I do for a spiral review).
. . . related- for those of you who said math could range from 30 min - 1 1/2 hours: Is this because you assign a set number of pages to do in a day, and sometimes they dawdle and don't get it done? Or because some topics take longer for you to teach than others? I'm still working out how to do this - I've been shooting for 45 min (an hour better) of math, honest effort, and not worrying too much about quantity. I'm finding that if I make her sit longer, the quantity & quality of work per unit of time goes way down, and the attitude suffers too. I'm better off moving on to a new subject and coming back to math the next morning . . . Just wondering how others handle this.I assign a set number of pages every day, but some of the time is spent in dawdling, for one of the twins, so his time can sometimes be over the 1 1/2 hours. The other twin can be finished the same amount of work in a 1/2 an hour if he really applies himself, it depends on the day.
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My DD12 is currently finishing Module #4 of Apologia General Science. She is not a really proficient reader, so she 'reads' the text along with the mp3(she will do this without complaint, but doesn't seem to retain much). I love the curriculum, but it doesn't seem to be engaging her. She struggles through the On Your Own questions, she will do the labs with dad, and seems to get them, but when we get to the review questions and the tests, I have nothing but a fight and tears. She claims she doesn't know the answers.
Right now she wants to be a Vet Tech., so she knows she needs at least two sciences, and she understands that she needs to start working hard now in 7th Grade, to get there. She is still a very immature 7th grader though(barely starting puberty), so I am not sure if she needs to mature a bit.
So, my questions are:
1. Do I just let her go through the text, 'reading' it, and doing the On Your Own questions, and call it good for this year? Accepting the fact that she is just getting a surface overview of it. Do I do the same next year with Physical Science year and then step it up in 9th Grade when she hits Biology?
2. Do I make her do them? I am finding it is killing her love of science, but I am feeling the pressure of high school coming.
3. Is there another creation-based science out there that is similar to Apologia, on maybe a little easier level, that could get her through this next couple of years? She is not a great scholar, but just an average kid. I do not want to debate the ease or toughness of Apologia, because I know that there are those that feel that it is light. We are not experiencing that here.
Thanks in advance for your advice,
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I am looking for recommendations for a good rhyming dictionary. I understand that there are a couple of different kinds - one that is arranged phonetically and one that is arranged alphabetically like a regular dictionary or thesaurus. If I was to purchase just one, which kind would you recommend and do you have a link to a specific one that you like?
Thanks in advance,
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I do not feel like I am pulling my child into the logic stage, but I do feel like there is more to do than we have time for. Everything takes my ds so long to do. I should rephrase, everything associated with writing takes my son so long to do - so this is WWS, science, and history. Day 4 of WWS takes my ds 1.5 hours if he is focused, more otherwise. A paragraph for history or science - an hour. My ds is advanced in math, but very average in spelling. I am pretty sure that we will be doing spelling until highschool, and then dabble in it until he graduates.
I really think you have to meet your child where she is. Add more time to her weaknesses (2 hours/day here for writing related stuff), and unfortunately take a bit from her strengths (math for my son, which is why it will take him 2.5 years to finish AoPS algebra). I am trying to keep my ds balanced until at least 9th grade.
If I were you, I would start ramping up the reading level. Just a little at a time, every book just a bit more difficult. I would also increase the level of the vocabulary you are doing. We have found that Caesar's English I and II go through the top 100 words typically found in classics, and these might help your dd to be able to read them more easily.
Good luck finding what works for you,
Ruth in NZ
Thank you, Ruth. We will be doing spelling well into high school around here as well. I will have to look into Caesar's English. I have to admit that we have only just started vocab work, I think you are right in saying that I probably need to ramp it up so that my daughter can more easily read the classics.
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No, she's not half way through the logic stage, lol. About 6th grade it really starts to kick in. In 7th they go PLEASE mom let me do some thinking in my writing and stop doing those stinkin' narratives. 8th I haven't lived yet. I'm saying she's only on the cusp. The divisions in WTM have NOTHING TO DO WITH REALITY. SWB is not some expert in child development, lol.
I think you are right, although I am sure there are kids who do follow the divisions in the WTM, but it is still hard to stop comparing.:tongue_smilie:
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and I swear I was listening to one of SWB's lectures and she said something about how some kids have to be dragged into the logic stage and many don't get it together it until they are about 8th graders. It is a process and it develops unevenly.
I heard that and thought, "Oh goody. That means we finally figure it out and then I get to drag him into the rhetoric stage. Great."
Really? I wonder which lecture that was. I have a few of her lectures, and I don't remember that. If that is the case, it would be reassuring.
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Ok, I'm going to take a different tack here. When you say you're pulling her into the logic stage, do you mean:
1--You're having trouble getting her to synthesize and make connections with her history, science, etc? That's logic stage thinking, the difference between thinking about what the narrative is and thinking about why it is.
OR is the issue:
2--You're having trouble keeping her up with the SKILLS to keep her going forward into logic stage work and to allow her to do the output you're thinking you need for the logic stage based on WTM, etc.?
See the difference? When I look at your list and what you're saying, it seems to me more of the latter. And to me, this is just my chaste advice, I'd consider getting some answers. When you have a 12 yo who isn't sounding out words, doesn't retain phonics, is having trouble with comprehension, etc. etc., it's time to get some answers.
I'm all for the idea of different timetables, being patient, puberty fog, etc. etc., but I don't think that means you have to go it alone or without asking for help. When someone comes on the board this frustrated, I say it's time to get evaluations. Just my two cents. People challenged me on this, and we are. Join the club. :)
Thank you, Elizabeth. I think that we are a little of #1 and #2. My DD has only just turned 12, and immature 12 at that, so that would account for #1. #2 is harder to pin-point. She has most of the skills that she needs, as we have worked very hard to get her there. But, part of the problem is getting her to use the skills she needs, maybe some of this comes down to her heart-attitude. I guess I need to think of her as just beginning the logic stage as a prior poster pointed out, and not like she is half-way through, which is what I tend to do. As far as other problems, I do not think that she has any glaring symptoms, but I probably need to be more observant.
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I'm looking at your curricula... and I can't see anything that would be out of line for a 6th grader, or possibly a 7th grader. Each child is so different.
My 6th grader is more accelerated in math, but Pre-Algebra in 6th or 7th grade is still considered college-prep track.
I don't know much about the grammar/phonics/spelling, but if you're meeting her where she's at, that's the best.
Chronicles of Narnia would be fine for 6th or 7th grades.
Vocab 4/5/6... if this is an area she is struggling with, SWB would say back down on difficulty and do more.
We're also doing Who is God as a family. My oldest is 12.
Don't forget that 11-14 is filled with lots of physical changes (girls and boys). I could tell when my oldest started going through puberty, because he started crying all. the. time. We are in the brain-fog stage. It's a daily struggle. But, again, I don't think there is anything you are doing that would be too much or too little for a 12yo. It is very subjective.
This is what I have to remind myself of. I think that most of our issues are because of the physical changes that are starting to happen. I like everything laid out for me, and dealing with a child in the beginning of puberty is not an exact science, as I am learning.
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First (((hugs))) and encouragement Roxanne! Sounds like you are doing a fine job -- NOT failing your DD at all! You have your "finger on the pulse" of her needs; you've made curriculum changes as needed; and you are working with her *where she is*. That's wonderful! :)
Second, a reassurance: every child matures at a very different rate. Not just physically, but also in different brain areas (abstract thinking; logic; reasoning; etc.). We must be VERY careful not to look at those three stages in WTM and assume that just because the theory says that children in 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th grade are in the "logic stage" doesn't mean that is true of all children. Remember that good old bell curve -- there are going to be a few students who are way to the left of the peak of the curve who enter the Logic Stage early -- most fit in somewhere in the curve -- and a few students enter the Logic Stage later, way to the right end of the bell curve. So, patience, and acceptance of who your child is (and where your child is developmentally) can help. Sounds like your DD is right at the beginning of the process; I bet when you look back in 2 years, you will see that she HAS progressed into the Logic Stage. But it's not fair to expect her to be halfway through her marathon right NOW when she JUST got off the starting line! :)
Third, realistically, middle schoolers are not typically working very independently unless they are of a certain learning type, are advanced students, and/or are very self-motivated students. (I had none of those qualities in either of our DSs; hence, not much independent working until at least 9th grade for the older DS, and well into high school (11th/12th) for younger DS. ... sigh ...)
What are your expectations of what the Logic Stage should look like? Here's what SWB says in her article "Academic Excellence", on this page of the WTM website:
" “Logic stage†(middle school years, roughly grades 5-8)
The development of analytical thinking skills and abstract thought.
Strengths: Developing ability for abstraction and criticism
Weaknesses: Immature exercise of those skills
Logic: learn to evaluate validity of arguments
Literature: begin to ask questions about characters, plots,
motivations, techniques
Spelling: increasing application of rules to written work
Grammar: diagramming and outlining
Writing: outlining and using outlines for compositions
Mathematics: move towards abstraction (pre-algebra and
algebra)
History: focus on cause and effect, on chronology and relationships
between countries
Science: experimentation of the scientific disciplines."
Sounds like you are right there, in all the programs you are using, what you are doing, and how your DD is responding: "Developing ability for abstraction and criticism" -- but "immature exercise of those skills."
Notice SWB says "DEVELOPING". That means "beginning to develop". That means EXPOSURE to these skills (which you are doing through many of the programs you listed that you are using), and BEGINNING to put them into practice. Notice, too, SWB says "immature exercise of those skills". That means this is a PROCESS . SWB lists the Logic Stage as roughly covering 4 grades; so we need to remember that it will take our children several YEARS to:
- step into this stage
- begin to develop those skills
- and to finally become competent at it
Biologically speaking, most students do not BEGIN to develop the abstract thinking portions of the brain before age 12 -- age 14 is more typical. That's why so many students do MUCH better waiting to start Algebra 1 until grade 9, when their brains have actually begun to mature the abstract thinking they will need in order to "get" those abstract Algebra concepts. Also, analysis/discussion at this stage is still very simple -- mostly you, the parent asking a LOT of leading questions to help guide the student into making connections and comparisons. (Not much initiation of insights, analysis, criticism, etc. until we'd been doing it about 4 years -- somewhere along about 10th grade.)
Again, from that same SWB article above, here's what a Logic Stage literature discussion/analysis looks like:
"Talk. Then you’re going to talk to the child about the book: What is or isn’t important in the plot, whether the characters are heroes or villains.
For a novel/story: Who is this book about? (central character) What do the central characters want? What keeps them/him/her from getting it? How do they/him/her get what they want? Do they have an enemy or enemies? Is there a villain? What does the villain want? What do you think is the most important event in the story? What leads up to this event? How are the characters different after this event? Pick out the most important event in each chapter. How many different stories does the writer tell?"
Notice -- it's a lot of you, the parent, asking a lot of very simple, leading questions about what actually happened in the book. Not much in the way of analyzing theme, symbolism, characterization, etc. at this point. :)
As you mentioned, you have the additional stress of 4 younger boys to wrangle with, and it would really be a help to you if DD was able to work more independently -- BUT, gently, honestly, it doesn't sound like your DD is quite at that stage. If you're really stressed, here are some options:
- Have DD do the one subject that takes the most from you (time-wise and ability-wise) and outsource it as an online course, local classroom or homeschool co-op, or with a tutor.
- Decide to give DD an extra year to prepare for high school. Call this 6th grade instead of 7th (or, if you were calling this 8th grade, call it 7th), and take the pressure off of both of you. That would make DD's later entry into puberty not noticeable -- in fact it very likely would put her right on target with those at the same physical and scholastic level. That could really help her not feel like she's always having to struggle to keep up, but rather, give her the opportunity to excel and be a leader.
- One morning (or afternoon) a week, have all the younger DC go to a co-op, a friend's house, or swap time with another homeschooler, so you can really have some focused time with DD on a regular basis with no interruptions. That way you can do a few of those one-on-one things, have history/literature discussions, and go over problem areas without the distraction of the younger 4 DC.
Just to prepare you for high school: While some things DO become more independent for some students in middle school, for a lot of students it is a gradual process, a little each year, all through *high school*. (That was our older DS.) And some are late bloomers or have some learning issues so that independence in learning doesn't come until 11th or 12th grade (our younger DS). And, whether you have an early-, average-, or late-bloomer, a LOT of time is needed for those WTM discussions and analysis with your high school student, about history, literature, science, logic, etc. So if you can figure out a way NOW to work in regular undistracted discussion time/one-on-one time with your DD, it will be a real help to you both in high school.
Keep perservering, Roxanne! It sounds like you're doing a great job! Warmest regards, Lori D.
Thank you, Lori, for taking the time to encourage me. I really value your words of wisdom on this board and I am going to take these comments to heart.
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I really don't have any advice for you as I am in the same place with dd11. She sounds exactly like your dd. I will be watching this thread for any advice and suggestions. :grouphug: you are not alone!!
I am glad that I am not alone. Thank you for the hugs.
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I constantly feel like I am pulling my DD12 into the logic stage. We only started using some classical education components two years ago. We started K4 with Abeka and continued that for a few years before we had busywork burnout, then we struggled for a couple of years when I had the 4 younger boys to wrangle. Now I feel a little like I am failing her. She is a little behind in some subjects and on par with others. She was a late reader, and her spelling and comprehension sometimes is lacking because she still guesses at words she doesn't know, even though I did take SWB's advice and I ran my 4 older kids through Saxon Phonics 2 last year to make sure the phonics was covered.
I still have to go over most of her work with her and she only does a few things independently. She is only in the beginning stages of puberty and has not matured yet like most of her friends. Could this be why I am frustrated? I want her work to be challenging(I was bored silly in school), but I want her to feel successful too.
I guess I am looking for advice as to what I can do to help her move into the logic stage. I feel high school looming and it is stressing me out.
Oh, here is a list of what she is doing:
MUS Pre-Algebra (I tried ChalkDust BCM at the beginning of the year, but it was a bust.)
Key to Fractions, Decimals and Percents(to brush up on the basics before Algebra)
Growing with Grammar 5(she will be moving into 6 after Christmas)
WWS(I really have to go over everything before she will do any of it herself)
Daily Skill Builders in Phonics and Spelling(she needs constant phonics review)
Spelling Plus(we are working through this book so that she has the 1000 most commonly misspelled words)
Chronicles of Narnia with PP Guides(the guides are done orally with me)
Vocabulary from Classical Roots 4(we just started this and she will go through 4, 5 and some of 6 this year)
Grammar of Poetry(once a week with me)
Getting Started with Latin(with me)
History(MARR with the rest of the kids - we are loosely using TruthQuest/Biblioplan)
Apologia General Science
Building Thinking Skills
Fallacy Detective
Apologia Who is God?(together)
AWANA Trek
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My boys all do MUS and also do Horizons Math workbooks a year behind as a spiral review. I like MUS for the mastery approach, and since Horizons is considered by some to be slightly above grade level, doing it a year behind works great as review. I do have to occasionally teach a new concept that appears in Horizons Math, and the kids haven't covered in MUS, but it works out well, because when they hit it in MUS, they have had some exposure to the concepts, even if it is brief.
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My DD12 is in 7th and we are just starting Week 9. I let her try to read through the lesson on her own, and sometimes she goes ahead and works on it, but I find that it is a little lengthy and wordy, so she often wants me to go over it as well, before she attempts it. The lessons usually take between 30 min and an hour. Sometimes I want to 'jump ship', because with 5 DC I really need my DD to be more independent, but I really think that the skills that are taught in WWS are worth the extra effort that we have to put in.
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Laura Gibbs has translated Aesop's Fables into Latin. Here is her website - http://mythfolklore.net/?vm=r. If you look at the books published section, you can see the link to download Aesop's Fables for free.
I hope this helps!
I need some science help, please.
in Logic Stage & Middle Grade Challenges
Posted
I wanted to give a bit of an update.
My DD and I had a talk. I explained to her that there are other options out there, like Rainbow Science. I also explained that they do not have the MP3s, which she really likes. So she would have to read the text on her own, and take responsibility for it herself. I told her that I am willing to purchase them, if she really honestly feels like she can not do Apologia. Her response was that she is going to be a Vet Tech, and she will use Apologia. She said that she really likes that she hears the scientific words pronounced properly. I explained to her that she was going to have to 'step-it-up', and take more responsibility. I even offered to have her omit the tests for this year, and she said no, she told me she will learn to study for them and she wants to take them. So...we will continue through Apologia for this year.