My ds has been asked to take a PATOSS test to update his 2016 educational psychology report stating he has dysgraphia. I was told that he would hand write for 20 minutes, take a break, and then type for 20 minutes on any topic he chooses. He would have 2 minutes to plan before each 20 mintues, before they set the timer. He has just finished a report on the Panama Canal, and I asked if he could write on that, and she said yes. Then they would compare the results, and if it was clear he can't hand write, then we apply for special assessment conditions for the NZ national exams -- specifically a computer so he can type. Can you guys walk me through what my ds should expect. He is pretty clever and the first thing he said was "can't I just throw the test and hand write really slowly?" Which, of course, yes he can. Plus, he could review his essay so the writing was easier, which she said was ok. With all these ways to game the test, what are they actually looking for? Ruth in NZ

We all parent the kids we have! So we can share ideas, but each of us implements our own plan based on our own experience.

This made me go re-live the last 4 years of my older ds's life here in our home. Haha!! I wanted him up by 9 for school, so implemented the 9pm no screens policy. The rest of us got into bed at 9pm and were asleep at 10pm in a 650 sq foot apartment so he was relegated to the lounge and had to be QUIET. All that was in there to do was read, play the piano (with headphones), or think. I figured he would last 2 hours tops and get to bed by 11pm. Nope. He went to bed close to 1:30 every night. So what did he do for FOUR hours by himself in the lounge?!?!?! Read and learn to play the piano. 🙂 He got through Scientific American, The Economist, and National Geographic every months, and read War and Peace, 100 years of Solitude, Crime and Punishment, Brother's Karamazov, The Luminaries, Wolf Hall, House of Leaves, ETC. Tons and tons of BOOKS. He has told me that he is better read than anyone else he has met at college. 🙂

Thanks for taking a peak. I think I've got what I need and am starting the process of implementing it. 🙂

Hope you love it as much as I have! Glad you appreciate the words!

I love the book because it is about creating meaningful assignments, graded or no. How do you actually encourage learning? How can you help a kid learn content to a deep level with all the top blooms taxonomy thinking. It is written to college professors, but the ideas are easily relevant to high school, and on down. It opened my eyes to why so much that I see when I tutor is rigorous busywork rather than true learning. The assignments are simply poorly designed. Here in NZ the kids regularly refer to formative vs summative assessment. Formative meaning to informally assess as you go to make sure you are learning appropriately, and summative meaning a performance evaluated for a grade. I think it is virtually impossible to learn if you as the learner are not doing some formative assessment -- checking you are right, getting someone to comment on your papers, correcting your pronunciation based on a model or teacher, etc. It is summative assessment that I think regularly takes over learning in schools and often in homeschools. And in my experience summative assessment effectively drives students based usually on fear of a poor evaluation, but it rarely helps with long term retention and deep insightful thinking. Clearly, there are exceptions (which is why I said rarely), but education has been driven for decades based on judgement and rankings, and I don't think it is generally helpful.

Well my 'house' is only a 65m^2 apartment. It just can't get very messy! 🙂

I agree. But as homeschoolers we can be more nuanced and adapt to our kid. I see it over and over on this board, people trying to imitate school. You can, but you don't have to. Yes, this is exactly what I have told my ds. And he knows that he must be able to handle exams if he wants to go to university so he can be a geographer. But how many exams/tests/quizzes do you need to master the skill of quick thinking under time pressure? For my ds we are planning 6 timed external exams in high school -- Three in Nov 2020 and three in Nov 2021. That is it. His life will not revolve around assessments, but he will have enough to learn the tricks and develop the skills.

Looks like most. I had no idea.

oooh. I like this. 🙂

Oh, I quite like your approach. Kids need to understand natural consequences. And it has been a LONG time since I had little people. 🙂 Because I tutor in my home, I have to keep it pretty tidy (not that my tutor kids look in my boy's bedroom haha). But my house is quite tidy because I run a business here.

I'm glad you started this thread because I was going to too. I have come to believe that assessment is the antithesis of deep learning. Yes, assessment can drive students to complete school work, but in my experience the work completed is done at a surface level, done to meet teacher expectations, done without joy, and done in a way limits retention. Deep learning is the antithesis of this. I am not saying that no assessment should ever be done, but I am saying that if not carefully designed, you are not testing anything of value. Students are just jumping hoops and being rewarded or discouraged by the resulting judgement on their performance. What I have finally stumbled across is project-based work -- having clear guidelines for a completed project, having an excellent model we are trying to mimic, and having a flexible but generally known deadline to get it done. Projects synthesize many learning areas into one which helps with engagement and retention. And projects allow for creativity and individuality. It is the holistic nature that is key. But also the lack of grading. Grading is about external evaluation of performance and is sole sucking. No one likes to be evaluated all the time. My ds and I together compare his work to a model to decide what to improve. We together decide if it is worth improving on this piece or work or to incorporate into the next piece of work. I don't even ask him to give himself a grade. What would that add? You read about high school kids even on this board who are super stressed in high school and taking 6 external online classes, and just run ragged with assignments to complete. It just seems like box ticking to me. How could your kid learn anything? My kids could do the same 6 classes at home, not have to prepare and study for tests, not have the stress associated with strict deadlines, and still do better learning. They may cover less content, and not have done as well on the test as these kids, but my kids' learning sticks and is deeper and more meaningful. He in NZ, we have the National Exams that both of my boys will go through. Luckily for us, they are well designed to test the highest levels of Bloom's taxonomy. But if you want to work at that level across all your subjects, you really need 2 years not one. So my younger has worked ahead to have 2 years for the 12th grade exams. This means less pressure, more engagement, and more deep learning. He needs time. Assessments are not the devil, but they are if they are 1) poorly designed to test only copious quantities of facts and concepts, and 2) if to be a top student what you have to prove is that you can do many of these types of assessments in quick succession. Why would we define a top student as able to memorize and spit out content fast. What job requires that? How does that make us better citizens of the world? If you are interested in what deep meaningful assignments look like, read "Engaging Ideas" by Bean. Well worth your time. But I will also say that of the students I work with in the school system, it is the *judgement* that is the problem. If you get a bad grade, it means that *you* are not worthy. Kids are *ranked* based on grades. RANKED. How can you not feel lesser when you get a lesser rank? You are basically never ranked again in your life, only as a teenager. The time when kids are most sensitive. It is just horrible. And I see cutting and mental illness as a result. For me, the key to my kids wanting to learn and retaining their learning is doing LESS. That is why I brought it up in the minimalism thread.

This. I thought of this last night. We have started our discussions based on what we have been discussing on this thread. Can't do it all at once, because then it seems like a lecture or a chore or 'oh, mom is trying to convince me of something.' So the first step was the reading. I'm going with the positive angle, so avoiding the screen conversation. I read him lots of the ideas on my other book thread, and he was really into explaining to me why not this book or that. What he liked about the ones recommended that he had read etc. He also informed me that he is *not* interested in social commentary. haha. So I definitely missed the boat on that one, but the thread helped him figure out what he *was* interested in. I talked to him about whether he needs something a bit deep than what he is reading so that he can really dig his teeth into it, but also told him that sometimes it is also nice to have lighter reading when you are in the mood -- so validating light reading so he didn't feel judged. He agreed. I also asked him what he got out of books. First, I told him what I get, simple easy entertainment when I'm tired and go after an easy book, or analytical engagement when I go after a hard one. He really surprised me and said that he gets out imagination and creativity. Um, oh. He is so not like me. We had a good laugh. But it was really helpful to think about a literary person and how he experiences books differently to me. He told me about his favorite book, and why he liked it. He really likes books with complex plots and characterizations but that are story based rather than scenario based. He told me that many sci fi books try to lead him to a certain conclusion, and he much prefers books that have morally ambiguous characters because they help him think deeply about human interaction and draw his *own* conclusion. So basically he is into grim-dark fantasy, which is very mature and complex, but then he likes some easy YA fantasy that is good vs evil simplicity. So, went to Amazon and bought books to fill my older boy's suitcase with both complex novels and easy ones. Older ds is coming home in a week -- so free shipping! My ds is a *deep* and *insightful* reader. But he is also very social. So I am trying to decide if I am willing to listen to the books that he reads like I used to with my older boy. Older ds was very motivated to get through some tough stuff because we were doing it together. The difference is that Crime and Punishment has free audiobooks, and for younger ds's modern fiction I would have to pay for audiobooks. But may be a good investment. Need to think on that one. Next up is thinking about what he wants to accomplish over school holidays. Then a couple of days after that we can lay out a schedule which is when we will discuss screens. Slow and steady wins the race. I will continue to reinforce the book discussion over the next few days. Encourage him to embrace what he loves -- imagination, creativity, morally ambiguous characters. I'll ask him more about what he learned from his favorite book. Validation is key. That and actually listening.

Thanks for your post, xahm My approach is slightly different from yours. I am really into modelling. For a child's room, I simply keep it tidy no matter my ds's age during my daily run through - make the bed if they haven't, pick up clothes, whatever. And then throughout the year, I just comment on how it is so nice to live in a tidy house. How it only takes a few minutes every day. And, oh, do you think you could make your bed? But then I just keep tidying like I always do, and make his bed if he hasn't. Over time, my kids just take over. My younger ds yesterday took 45 minutes with the vacuum to deep clean his room for the first time. I didn't tell him to. And then he said, 'I think I should do this once a month.' Older boy has told me that he has by far the tidiest room in the dorm. So no nagging, rules, punishments, rewards over here. But consistent modelling and positive commentary have created kids who like a tidy house and will tidy on their own because they have internalized the value. This is basically my approach for to almost everything.

I like this. Sometimes it is easy for me to lose my way and start to tick boxes. This is an excellent reminder to both identify my actual priorities and keep my eyes on them. I'm planning for the next month, so this is timely.

Haha. Maybe I am. And I am sorry for making you feel uncomfortable. I have always enjoyed reading your posts because you help me to think through what I want to do and what I can do. But I will quit calling your posts fascinating. 🙂

So ds said that I'm mis-understanding what he likes. It is not social-commentary, haha. Need to start a new thread! Rather he likes deep complex plots that are about human interaction. He just doesn't want them depressing. But then he said that he likes grim-dark fantasy!?!?!? Haha. Our discussion was actually quite nuanced, and he is definitely a deep thinker who know what he wants. Sounds like he will do audiobooks from the Pride and Prejudice era, because he loves those kinds. Sound like he wants to do Northanger Abbey and Oliver Twist. (he definitely likes humor/satire) For novels he wants to go after The Martian Chronicles, Beggars of Spain, and a grim-dark fantasy series we just found. Thanks guys for helping me. As I read out the suggestions and looked them up, it helped him to identify what he actually wants!

I know! I just talked to him about this. He said that he doesn't really like sci fi, because he feels that the author is trying to drive him towards a certain thought process about an issue. He prefers books with deep complex plots that he can take from it what he wants.

Oh, my dh is excited. He like the three body problem by the same guy!

ds read Cat's Cradle a very long time ago. I think I gave it to him at age 11. ooops. So maybe back then he didn't mind depressing? Don't really remember. He has read the Martian Chronicles, but it was so long ago, he said he would like to read them again!

haha! dh says I, Robot is a good choice. I agree that you can't do social commentary without also touching on the human condition, he just doesn't wan't something that is focused on exploring emotion only. Or that is too depressing. Angel's Ashes comes to mind or Metamorphosis. Very depressing.

(I asked Jo. "Humor? Maybe Vonnegut, except you laugh to fill the void that erupts within your soul." Then she said maybe Cat's Cradle or Animal Farm. She says they're readable. Maybe novella of Beggars in Spain, by Nancy Kress. Maybe Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451 or his short stories ["basically, he's dystopian but it ends on a hopeful note."] The short stories aren't all social commentary. [Oh, my she talks fast] BUt not The Martian Chronicles-gets very dark [she's really into dark]) He read Cat's Cradle years and years ago and liked it. I'm not sure he has read fahrenheit 451 or Animal Farm. I'll ask. Beggars in Spain looks good, although in the past he has not like Sci Fi but he is getting older! DH thinks he might like the Martian Chronicles.

Perhaps more topics like the implications of genetic engineering, income inequality, and power.

Waving at Jo! 🙂 I put Ender's Game, and Lord of the Flies down because he has read them and likes them. Perhaps Book Thief is not what I think it is as I have not read it. But I'm not sure he will want historical fiction. He read the Giver and liked it. So you are on the right track. Thanks!

He plays strategy games - Starcraft, Civilization Also fantasy games - Skyrim No scary/violent games here -- he would have nightmares. So Civilization might lead to some reading on history. I'll ask him about that.