I get the impression that classical education uses certain methods to teach language arts. What makes this approach rigorous? The other thread kept referring to reading literature from the 'cannon' and to engaging with the best thinkers. Well, I can do that. But then I kept reading that to be a classical educator requires a high-level of education and perhaps training, that you could not just co-learn at a high level because it is not the same. What specific methods do they use and why are they considered by some to be so good? I'm not interested in content as much as teaching techniques and methods. Thoughts?

I think there is a continuum in 2 different dimensions: 1) Teacher led vs student led 2) Question focused (inquiry is the goal) vs linked topics (content is the goal) This creates 4 quadrants which most of what we are talking about seems to fall into, but obviously on a continuum. Not sure, but trying to sort through these different impressions everyone has.

When my kids were little we did lots of unit studies. The one I remember was rocks. We read books, we collected fossils, we looked at road cuts, we joined a geology club, we studied the chemistry of minerals, we went on field trips to geologic sites, and ds wrote about rocks. But there was no central problem or project. The goal of the unit study was learning content in an interest-based way. Rabbit trails were encouraged. PBL and PrBL must be more tightly managed by the teacher to keep students focused on the project/problem at hand. For Geography, I would ask my ds if his bunny trail was actually useful to answering the question or only interesting. If it was just interesting, he would write down the question to get back to later, and redirect his efforts to the question at hand. PrBL is incredibly useful for training kids to focus on a goal and work to complete it. We have found this style of learning very very challenging and very very interesting.

Because these projects and problems have been interest led, my kids have never struggled to stay focused. They were keen to learn because they had picked the topic.

Scheduling. Project Based Learning - scheduling is part of what students are learning with PBL. Having a deadline (the science fair in our case) meant that the product (the poster) had to be completed by a certain day. I kept my kids *very* involved in the scheduling and adjusting it because that was part of what I wanted them to learn. Problem Based Learning - With our geography problems, I have set an arbitrary deadline. Some questions were given 5 weeks, some 10, and one went 15. I am new to PrBL, so ds and I have meandered our way through how to set these up. For a 10 week problem, we pick a topic (comparing DRC to Botswana) and research *anything* we want for 2 weeks. No notes, no output, just read read read. We do this side by side on the sofa. In week 3 we clarify the question. We start brainstorming and making sure we have enough resources to answer the question. In weeks 4-10 he answers the problem. This is an iterative process, where he decides he needs certain information, researches it, outlines, writes, and then moves on to the next paragraph. But he is constantly looping as he learns more. And for his paper on the Mobutu vs Khama, it ended up that his research paper that took 7 weeks to write and 10 weeks in total, actually ended up being pre-writing. And he took 5 more weeks to write two separate papers (one on the impact of leadership, and one on the impact of resources) each of which had a very clear thesis and harvested content from the original research paper. In the process of answering his question, ds had to study: qualitative vs quantitative economic statistics and their pros and cons, comparative government, the history of European intervention in Africa, leadership styles, types of corruption, bill of rights, city planning, transportation, insurgency, mineral extraction, government owned enterprise, health, demography, physical geography, etc. This is Problem Based Learning. Everything was learned to help him answer a specific question.

For Project Based Learning, students must complete a project. This is by definition. For Problem Based Learning, students must solve a problem. You don't need output, exactly. But in my experience, it would be impossible to tell if the problem was solved without some sort of output. It could be a presentation, a question/answer delivery, a poster, a slide show, a paper, a video, etc. But I do think that to insure PrBL doesn't slide into various rabbit trails on a topic (a unit study), you need to keep tight control over the *answering* of the specific question.

So one of the key features of both Project Based Learning (PBL) and Problem Based Learning PrBL) is that you learn content/skills on a need-to know basis to solve the question you have. So for example, my ds did not study probability and city planning first, and then do a project on timing the traffic lights. Instead, he wanted to actually time specific traffic lights in our city and learned probability and city planning in direct context of the question he was answering. And he only learned the pieces of these fields (probability and city planning) that were directly relevant to his needs. It is kind of the opposite of a classical education or neo-classical education where you learn content from textbooks in an ordered manner organized by experts in the field. In PBL and PrBL, you learn by *doing* the project or solving the problem. They are based in true inquiry by students that can be guided by teachers but definitely not taught. #1 and #2 in your list are neither PBL or PrBL because they are not based in inquiry. They are pre-designed activities to clarify learning specific content. They are teacher driven with expected outcome. This is not PBL or PrBL.

So the science fair projects we did are considered Project-Based Learning in the formal sense. And the Geography projects I have done with my younger are Problem-Based Learning. He just spent 150 hours over 15 weeks understanding and writing a paper on the impact of the first leaders after independence (Mobutu vs Khama) on the social and economic development of the DRC vs Botswana. As I see it, it is a sliding scale, but Project based learning is a multi-week or month inquiry unit that produces a product at the end. Problem-based learning is also a multi-week or month inquiry unit that focuses on exploring an idea. Unit studies in my mind are about a broader topic, say rocks, where you hit rocks from all sorts of angles with many different fields. But it is not focused on a central question like my son's Geography Problem. About as clear as mud.

The above is from the Wikipedia commons. I was listening just recently to the difference between problem based learning and project based learning. They are similar, but not the same. Sorry, had to deal with my crackers in the oven! Give me a sec

For math and science, make them open book tests. Let your kids shine in their capability. My older boy's math exams are open book and untimed. It is a valid way to assess. And I agree, let them help you design their exams to highlight their learning. In NZ, for many subjects, the kids know almost the exact questions to expect on the closed-book national exams. But the questions are hard enough that they must prepare an answer that they can then write down under exam conditions.

Excellent. Thanks! DS is in year 12 and writes 9 words per min. I'm not sure how many minutes this can be sustained. Maybe 3 minutes? Sounds like the test is as easy and obvious as she indicated.

My ds has been asked to take a PATOSS test to update his 2016 educational psychology report stating he has dysgraphia. I was told that he would hand write for 20 minutes, take a break, and then type for 20 minutes on any topic he chooses. He would have 2 minutes to plan before each 20 mintues, before they set the timer. He has just finished a report on the Panama Canal, and I asked if he could write on that, and she said yes. Then they would compare the results, and if it was clear he can't hand write, then we apply for special assessment conditions for the NZ national exams -- specifically a computer so he can type. Can you guys walk me through what my ds should expect. He is pretty clever and the first thing he said was "can't I just throw the test and hand write really slowly?" Which, of course, yes he can. Plus, he could review his essay so the writing was easier, which she said was ok. With all these ways to game the test, what are they actually looking for? Ruth in NZ

We all parent the kids we have! So we can share ideas, but each of us implements our own plan based on our own experience.

This made me go re-live the last 4 years of my older ds's life here in our home. Haha!! I wanted him up by 9 for school, so implemented the 9pm no screens policy. The rest of us got into bed at 9pm and were asleep at 10pm in a 650 sq foot apartment so he was relegated to the lounge and had to be QUIET. All that was in there to do was read, play the piano (with headphones), or think. I figured he would last 2 hours tops and get to bed by 11pm. Nope. He went to bed close to 1:30 every night. So what did he do for FOUR hours by himself in the lounge?!?!?! Read and learn to play the piano. 🙂 He got through Scientific American, The Economist, and National Geographic every months, and read War and Peace, 100 years of Solitude, Crime and Punishment, Brother's Karamazov, The Luminaries, Wolf Hall, House of Leaves, ETC. Tons and tons of BOOKS. He has told me that he is better read than anyone else he has met at college. 🙂

Thanks for taking a peak. I think I've got what I need and am starting the process of implementing it. 🙂

Hope you love it as much as I have! Glad you appreciate the words!

I love the book because it is about creating meaningful assignments, graded or no. How do you actually encourage learning? How can you help a kid learn content to a deep level with all the top blooms taxonomy thinking. It is written to college professors, but the ideas are easily relevant to high school, and on down. It opened my eyes to why so much that I see when I tutor is rigorous busywork rather than true learning. The assignments are simply poorly designed. Here in NZ the kids regularly refer to formative vs summative assessment. Formative meaning to informally assess as you go to make sure you are learning appropriately, and summative meaning a performance evaluated for a grade. I think it is virtually impossible to learn if you as the learner are not doing some formative assessment -- checking you are right, getting someone to comment on your papers, correcting your pronunciation based on a model or teacher, etc. It is summative assessment that I think regularly takes over learning in schools and often in homeschools. And in my experience summative assessment effectively drives students based usually on fear of a poor evaluation, but it rarely helps with long term retention and deep insightful thinking. Clearly, there are exceptions (which is why I said rarely), but education has been driven for decades based on judgement and rankings, and I don't think it is generally helpful.

Well my 'house' is only a 65m^2 apartment. It just can't get very messy! 🙂

I agree. But as homeschoolers we can be more nuanced and adapt to our kid. I see it over and over on this board, people trying to imitate school. You can, but you don't have to. Yes, this is exactly what I have told my ds. And he knows that he must be able to handle exams if he wants to go to university so he can be a geographer. But how many exams/tests/quizzes do you need to master the skill of quick thinking under time pressure? For my ds we are planning 6 timed external exams in high school -- Three in Nov 2020 and three in Nov 2021. That is it. His life will not revolve around assessments, but he will have enough to learn the tricks and develop the skills.

Looks like most. I had no idea.

oooh. I like this. 🙂

Oh, I quite like your approach. Kids need to understand natural consequences. And it has been a LONG time since I had little people. 🙂 Because I tutor in my home, I have to keep it pretty tidy (not that my tutor kids look in my boy's bedroom haha). But my house is quite tidy because I run a business here.

I'm glad you started this thread because I was going to too. I have come to believe that assessment is the antithesis of deep learning. Yes, assessment can drive students to complete school work, but in my experience the work completed is done at a surface level, done to meet teacher expectations, done without joy, and done in a way limits retention. Deep learning is the antithesis of this. I am not saying that no assessment should ever be done, but I am saying that if not carefully designed, you are not testing anything of value. Students are just jumping hoops and being rewarded or discouraged by the resulting judgement on their performance. What I have finally stumbled across is project-based work -- having clear guidelines for a completed project, having an excellent model we are trying to mimic, and having a flexible but generally known deadline to get it done. Projects synthesize many learning areas into one which helps with engagement and retention. And projects allow for creativity and individuality. It is the holistic nature that is key. But also the lack of grading. Grading is about external evaluation of performance and is sole sucking. No one likes to be evaluated all the time. My ds and I together compare his work to a model to decide what to improve. We together decide if it is worth improving on this piece or work or to incorporate into the next piece of work. I don't even ask him to give himself a grade. What would that add? You read about high school kids even on this board who are super stressed in high school and taking 6 external online classes, and just run ragged with assignments to complete. It just seems like box ticking to me. How could your kid learn anything? My kids could do the same 6 classes at home, not have to prepare and study for tests, not have the stress associated with strict deadlines, and still do better learning. They may cover less content, and not have done as well on the test as these kids, but my kids' learning sticks and is deeper and more meaningful. He in NZ, we have the National Exams that both of my boys will go through. Luckily for us, they are well designed to test the highest levels of Bloom's taxonomy. But if you want to work at that level across all your subjects, you really need 2 years not one. So my younger has worked ahead to have 2 years for the 12th grade exams. This means less pressure, more engagement, and more deep learning. He needs time. Assessments are not the devil, but they are if they are 1) poorly designed to test only copious quantities of facts and concepts, and 2) if to be a top student what you have to prove is that you can do many of these types of assessments in quick succession. Why would we define a top student as able to memorize and spit out content fast. What job requires that? How does that make us better citizens of the world? If you are interested in what deep meaningful assignments look like, read "Engaging Ideas" by Bean. Well worth your time. But I will also say that of the students I work with in the school system, it is the *judgement* that is the problem. If you get a bad grade, it means that *you* are not worthy. Kids are *ranked* based on grades. RANKED. How can you not feel lesser when you get a lesser rank? You are basically never ranked again in your life, only as a teenager. The time when kids are most sensitive. It is just horrible. And I see cutting and mental illness as a result. For me, the key to my kids wanting to learn and retaining their learning is doing LESS. That is why I brought it up in the minimalism thread.

This. I thought of this last night. We have started our discussions based on what we have been discussing on this thread. Can't do it all at once, because then it seems like a lecture or a chore or 'oh, mom is trying to convince me of something.' So the first step was the reading. I'm going with the positive angle, so avoiding the screen conversation. I read him lots of the ideas on my other book thread, and he was really into explaining to me why not this book or that. What he liked about the ones recommended that he had read etc. He also informed me that he is *not* interested in social commentary. haha. So I definitely missed the boat on that one, but the thread helped him figure out what he *was* interested in. I talked to him about whether he needs something a bit deep than what he is reading so that he can really dig his teeth into it, but also told him that sometimes it is also nice to have lighter reading when you are in the mood -- so validating light reading so he didn't feel judged. He agreed. I also asked him what he got out of books. First, I told him what I get, simple easy entertainment when I'm tired and go after an easy book, or analytical engagement when I go after a hard one. He really surprised me and said that he gets out imagination and creativity. Um, oh. He is so not like me. We had a good laugh. But it was really helpful to think about a literary person and how he experiences books differently to me. He told me about his favorite book, and why he liked it. He really likes books with complex plots and characterizations but that are story based rather than scenario based. He told me that many sci fi books try to lead him to a certain conclusion, and he much prefers books that have morally ambiguous characters because they help him think deeply about human interaction and draw his *own* conclusion. So basically he is into grim-dark fantasy, which is very mature and complex, but then he likes some easy YA fantasy that is good vs evil simplicity. So, went to Amazon and bought books to fill my older boy's suitcase with both complex novels and easy ones. Older ds is coming home in a week -- so free shipping! My ds is a *deep* and *insightful* reader. But he is also very social. So I am trying to decide if I am willing to listen to the books that he reads like I used to with my older boy. Older ds was very motivated to get through some tough stuff because we were doing it together. The difference is that Crime and Punishment has free audiobooks, and for younger ds's modern fiction I would have to pay for audiobooks. But may be a good investment. Need to think on that one. Next up is thinking about what he wants to accomplish over school holidays. Then a couple of days after that we can lay out a schedule which is when we will discuss screens. Slow and steady wins the race. I will continue to reinforce the book discussion over the next few days. Encourage him to embrace what he loves -- imagination, creativity, morally ambiguous characters. I'll ask him more about what he learned from his favorite book. Validation is key. That and actually listening.