Teachin'Mine
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Posts posted by Teachin'Mine
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I'm the last one to defend the College Board because I've had to give them hundreds of dollars of my family's money as well. That said, students get four free score reports with the SAT so applying to four schools doesn't need to cost students any more.
My personal experience as a counselor confirms what I the research finds which is that many students would benefit from a better planned application strategy often including adding a school or two. Again and again I have students come to me with a plan like this: apply to one state u (not necessarily the one that's the best academic or financial fit) and then a school like Stanford that is not at all a possibility given their academic record. Depending on their academic profile and financial circumstances this may be a huge missed opportunity. When you see a student go from having as their only options a school with poor quality instruction, lousy financial aid, and a low graduation rate - OR, a nurturing school with great financial aid and a high graduation rate, it becomes pretty clear why putting in a couple more applications can be absolutely life changing. Again this is a very individual situation based on a student's circumstances, but some students will end up with an absolutely HUGE difference between their best and worst financial aid offer.
I agree with you that many students could benefit from better preparation of their college applications lists, but as ScoutermominIL pointed out, many high schools just do not have the counselors needed for this level of counseling. Those who can afford private counseling no doubt benefit from the help. Often the students who would benefit the most don't have the resources for that and likely many don't know about all the resources available online even. As homeschoolers, we have to take on the role of counselor and that has it's pros and cons. Personally I think it was the hardest part of homeschooling. Hindsight is soooo much clearer. Dd applied to many schools as we didn't have the benefit of Naviance to have projected outcomes and there was no financial safety as she needed lots of aid. (Because of the need for high aid, even Naviance might not have been so helpful or accurate.) So CB was no doubt happy to get all of our extra dollars.
No matter how much we read of students' experiences of top private schools costing less than the local in-state publics, we still hear so much about parents of students who need financial aid not allowing them to apply to the private colleges. Some high school students really do know that they want to attend in-state and have done the research to make sure it's a good fit for them, but there are many others who just never explored other options. For students who want to be challenged academically, I also wonder when they're accepted to all on their list. Some are truly brilliant and accomplished enough to be accepted to all their reaches, but for most it seems that they might have benefited from reaching higher. I know that it's a matter of fit and many students would rather be somewhere where where they are closer to the top of the class rather than just one of the many other bright students, so this isn't even a goal for many. And most students are needing to take finances into account as well.
Talk about jumbled ramblings. lol But all that to say that I do think that many students can benefit from applying to more and a variety of schools - safety, match, reach - but it just seems like a money driven interest when it comes from the CB. Maybe they could "put their money where their mouth is" and raise the number of fee waivered applications, tests and score reports, and CSS Profiles and even reduce their fees overall.
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I believe that the college board, the ACT, and other such organizations will do anything to make a buck, ethics are of no concern. Sigh...
So, yah...it's really not a function of the college board to be sticking their nose into this, but not surprising either. The next thing they'll do is ask guidance counselors to make a pledge that they will funnel all of their students into at least one AP regardless of ability. They'd make a lot of money off that too!
Many high schools which offer APs are already pulling as many students as they can into the class as the numbers make the school look good. The only way the CB makes money off of the "extra" students is if they also take the AP test. Some schools have all the students take the AP test and report the number who took the class and the test and are less upfront about the testing results, while others only encourage the ones who were appropriately placed to take the AP test and report their higher scores.
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The College Board has a program to encourage high school guidance counselors to encourage all students to apply to four or more colleges so they can find one that meets their academic potential. They actually asked the guidance counselors to sign a pledge that they will do this with each of their students.
https://jfe.qualtrics.com/form/SV_dgRdW2izxfqEknj?ep_mid=11046883&ep_rid=157101524
I can't even begin to imagine the ways in which this will benefit CB. $$$ In general, I think that applying to more than one or two is a good idea, but it's really a conflict of interest when this push is coming from an organization which could benefit tremendously financially. Common Application fees, test score reporting fees (SAT, SAT IIs, APs?), CSS Profile fees ... If they could legally offer a kick-back to the guidance counselors for each student application above four, I'm sure they'd be doing that too. At least for the SAT, students can get free test reports for up to four colleges, but beyond that they pay the fees.
I know some students here only applied to one or two colleges and all worked out very well for them, but most do apply to more. Students trying for reaches often apply to many more than four because of the low percentages accepted, so I don't think they're targeting these students. Low SES students in schools with understaffed guidance departments likely apply to fewer schools. With fee waivers they can often apply to more schools for no or low cost, but the CB won't make more off of them unless they exceed the 8 school limit. Students trying for reaches and needing full need may also apply to many more than the usual because their chances of being admitted are even lower than for those who are able to pay a substantial amount. They may or may not have any true financial safeties, so they spend the extra for more applications knowing that it may prove beneficial in the end. So the CB does make some money off of these students, but I think it's the average students they are trying to get more from. The majority of high school students who attend college do so at their in state publics. Because these colleges tend to base admission more on stats, it's easier for a potential student to guess their likelihood for admission, and applying to only one or two is probably all they need.
Has anyone with students in public or private high schools noticed additional encouragement/pressure for students to apply to more schools? I'm just curious as I think this was the first year for this initiative.
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By making testing optional, they'll likely receive more applications and their acceptance rate will decrease moving them up in ratings. They may also increase yield as students who have higher GPAs but low test scores would find it harder to be accepted into similarly ranked colleges which do require test scores. There are many private schools which are test optional, but fewer public ones. I noticed on the list that the California State Universities CSUs are test optional while the Universities of California UCs are not. I think we'll be seeing more colleges becoming test optional.
List of test optional colleges: http://www.fairtest.org/university/optional
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Lisa junior year is not late at all! I'd look for schools which fit his needs, run the NPCs, and then see which ones would want a student like your son, from his geographic area too, enough to give him some good merit aid. If I remember from a thread a while back, he wants one with a good sailing program and is interested in liberal arts colleges either in or near a city. Is that right? Liberal arts colleges typically have many more applications from women, so they do try to attract the guys to get a more balanced class. That could work in his favor. If I remember right he's also a good student. He should try to get his test scores as high as he can as a lot of merit aid is based on test scores. If they're lower than his academic work indicates, look for test optional schools. If you haven't already, try to visit a variety of schools locally just so he can get a feel for what he does and doesn't like - size, location, university, LAC, class sizes, etc..
Paying 40% of anyone's income would be outrageous IMO. You can call the College Board and go over your CSS form as some of it isn't clear in how it should be answered. It's possible that there's an error somewhere throwing off the results. Even with the CSS, it's mostly based on income and savings and other resources factor in less, but do make a difference. 40% still seems excessive especially if it's dependent on tapping into home equity.
When looking at schools, some state schools have much lower tuition even for OOS students. Some of those are a bargain if they're a good fit. Some privates can be very generous with aid/merit especially if they want a particular student. Run the NPCs on some of the highest ranking schools on his/your list to see how they look. If he has a good in-state public which he likes and is affordable, he may want to do an overnight visit. You want him to have safeties that he really likes and would be happy to attend. Then the pressure is off when waiting on acceptances from the schools which are more of a reach for stats or financial reasons.
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Just another voice advising all parents, regardless of FAFSA's EFC, to run the NPCs for each of the prospective colleges. Even with a low EFC and schools which claim to meet full need, the variety of ways in which they will do that can be quite creative. :glare: For those with low income especially, when you look at the student and family contribution needed per the NPC, also look at the ways in which they will meet need. Some may be loan free, many will include the usual subsidized loans and student work and summer earnings, but some may also include unsubsidized parent loans. Take that additional loan amount and add it to what you'll need to pay and I'd do the same for the student work. Neither of those are a guarantee. You may not want or qualify for the parent co-signed loan, and the student may not want or be able to get student work.
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You didn't ask me, but I am going to answer anyway.
I really don't see the academic benefit in diversity. And, yes, I think it should be race and gender blind. But, I do see an academic benefit in picking the most academic kids for an academic setting. How many posts have we seen here from parents of kids in highly selective colleges talk about how wonderful it is that their kids have found their academic peers?
And, yes, learning disabilities can definitely be an advantage.
Students at colleges which value diversity do not suffer at all from a lack of academic peers. Highly selective schools admit top students and recognize that academics is just one aspect of what's learned in college life. Homogenous schools don't offer what diverse ones do IMO. Diversity encompasses race, SES, nationality, geographic, etc.. But as students all have different perspectives and priorities, there's both diverse and non-diverse schools. It's a matter of fit.
As for learning disabilities being an advantage, I think it can when the student is a high achiever despite these obstacles. This college likes to admit high achievers from within it's city as many living there are lower SES and have overcome obstacles as well.
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:hurray: :party: :hurray:
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When it comes to the highly selective colleges, there is no way to know who will or won't be accepted. I'd be happy for him and hope that she'll get admitted in the RD round. These schools look for so many different types of diversity when filling a class.
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I would wait until the student has been on campus for a while before deciding whether one is needed. You can always buy one online and have it shipped directly to them if the printing options on campus aren't sufficient. Dorm space and desktop space can be at a premium and often it's just not needed.
Sebastian, just read your post instead of just the title, and if your existing printer is good, I'd just pay for any printing until it arrives with your household stuff. Years ago printing on campus was terrible quality and inconvenient. Thankfully that has changed!
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She was likely trying to get those AP taking students into her high school. High stats kids make the high school look good. I doubt her comment was made out of sheer ignorance. Silence may have been prudent, but it would not have been possible for me. :tongue_smilie:
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Marketing might work. This article might give you a place to start.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-05-13/the-best-undergraduate-b-schools-for-marketing
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Agree with Creekland about checking out the private college, Congratulations on graduating with your Associates! Awesome!
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All the colleges dd applied to had no limit on the number of DE credits to be admitted as a freshman. These were all ranked top 30's and most of them would not transfer any of her DE credits, but some might upon review. She didn't apply to any of the colleges which would have required her to enter as a transfer student.
You and your son will know when he's ready for a college class when the time comes.
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Generally it varies depending on the selectivity of the college, but you do have to check with each college. We found that the most selective ones had no limit as long as the courses were completed while still a high school student. Some of the less selective ones had limits as low as 30 or fewer credits before having to be a transfer student.
I'd also talk with the dual enrollment office for any of their restrictions. While some allow 8th graders to take college classes, some limit the number of years a student can dual enroll. If there is a number of years restriction, you may want to do AP or a course at another college and wait until 9th grade.
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:hurray: :party: :hurray:
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It takes what it takes. As long as he's the one wanting to do four hours of math and the other classes, I'd let him give it a go. If it proves to be too time consuming or he develops other interest which need time, then the schedule can always be adjusted. Dd had a very heavy high school load in 9th grade, but it was good prep for the college courseload which followed. At that time we had no idea what she'd be doing the next three years, but my thinking was that it was better to fit in more early on to allow time for whatever she decided to give time to in later years. I had read how busy 11th grade typically was with test prep and college searching, etc. and wanted her to have more flexibility then. lol As it turned out she had no time for test prep or much else as she ended up loving college classes and activities. But she wouldn't have been ready for the rigor of that had she not been working hard in 9th. Be willing to adjust his courses as needed. He may work through the math more quickly than you anticipate. What some may consider drudgery others find fun.
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I expressed a lot of interest. I had the time and expressed it all to my dd only. Unfortunately she was busy with more immediate interests and goals and although she was interested in all the colleges she applied to, it wasn't obvious to most of them. I've always heard that junior year is the busiest but IMO it's first semester senior year. If you have the flexibility of homechooling, it would be wise to allow some time for showing interest.
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8 you are blessed!
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UR is an amazing school! I remember their costs as being about the same as others so that's why I was surprised to see it higher with all the fees included. They do offer great merit aid. You're right that the details don't matter as long as those incidentals are included somewhere in the financial aid package so there are no surprises during the school year.
I was thinking of another very highly regarded school with a surprisingly low endowment, and known for not meeting need and imposing additional charges for many things during the school year. I think that if they took better care of them as students, they'd have more loyal and generous alumni as they graduate with incredible salaries.
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Yes I think that the endowments have a lot to do with the costs and obviously with financial aid. I think that the ones with the highest endowments tend to be more inclusive in their costs or in what's included in their financial aid.
8, I can't even imagine looking at those costs for eight. You're doing a great job looking at each of your students individually and finding programs that are great for them and work financially.
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I think the total is pretty typical for many privates.
You can google the name of the school followed by "cost of attendance" to see expected costs. These types of "fees" are not usually itemized with as much detail as is on the bill, but a pretty accurate total is usually listed. Where it can get tricky is when they put in things like "estimated" for books and travel. This amount can vary widely from semester to semester (or quarter to quarter) and is also dependent on proximity to the school. Often they just insert the word "varies," with NO number at all. So, you have to be careful because the bottom line that is presented doesn't include everything.
It's on the high end even for the elites. Harvard is 58.6K for tuition, fees and room and board. Costs for books, travel and personal expenses would bring it to about the same as UR with not including those variable costs.
Here's UR's estimated costs for 2014-2015 and it comes too 63.2K including some allowance for books travel and expenses.
http://enrollment.rochester.edu/financial-aid/undergrads/
I believe that UR's costs this year have taken a considerable jump from last year, or it could be that I was unaware of the extra costs outlined in Creekland's bill.
I thoroughly agree that you have to be careful that the bottom line is all inclusive when comparing college costs. In order to compare more apples to apples, I took off any costs for books, travel expenses and personal expenses as the colleges all estimated varying amounts. It did make it confusing when comparing.
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Gotta love the perpetual "This is your last chance to apply for free with a simple application and no essays" emails. They continued through last summer and may still be going. Highly recommend that students create a separate email for college communications.
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Creekland did they even mention those costs when they sent their financial aid offers? That's 63K before books, transportation and personal expenses. :svengo:
4 or More
in The College Board
Posted
Great analogy with the pharmaceutical companies!
Yes, the comments about "gaming the system" are often made in response to students who apply to a lot of schools. I agree that in some cases it's a very wise decision. I think that many who send out a lot of applications also haven't had the ability to visit all their colleges of interest, which can be financially impossible, and this allows them to put more money towards applications and then just visit the ones of interest once the acceptances are in. Makes for a hectic spring, but for some it's the best option.