Need help with LA for dyslexia...High Noon and what for grammar?

[WaterLily]

My 5th grade dd has dylslexia as well as some working memory and auditory processing issues (I guess they all go together). I decided to try High Noon to help her catch up a bit with her reading and I bought level 1 (haven't started it yet) but I'm wondering if I should've bought level 2. She took the placement test and was able to read and understand the first 3 paragraphs and read but did not understand the 4th. Even with the ones she understood, she did read a few word incorrectly and did some word replacement. She doesn't replace words with similar meaning words - she replaces them with similar looking words (his for this, show for store, etc). I haven't bought the workbook or readers yet because I'm not sure which level we should start with.

 

Also, we haven't done much grammar b/c we've been focusing on reading but I know she's so far behind in grammar and we need to put some focus back on that. I used Rod & Staff with my older kids but would that work for a child with dyslexia? I know she wouldn't be ready for the 5th grade book...maybe the 3rd or 4th grade book at the most. I also know she would NOT be able to do all the writing so maybe we read it together and only do a little writing and/or the workbook?

 

We will likely keep using WWE and Sequential Spelling along with High Noon and whatever we end up with for grammar.

 

Any advice? Thank you!

[OneStepAtATime]

I'm back.  Briefly.  :)

 

O.k. there are a few on here using High Noon.  Hopefully they will respond very soon, but you may need to give it a few days. Everyone seems pretty busy right now.  I can't really address the grammar either, since we are using Barton and grammar is gently included with the program.

 

But I did want to say Hi!

 

And to say that the replacing words of similar form is very common with dyslexics.  Frequently they start "reading' by looking at the first couple of letters or so and then guessing at the rest.   They do not know how to decode correctly.  It isn't intuitive and must be taught in small segments, systematically.   This guessing becomes an ingrained habit that is hard to remediate without very targeted instruction, unfortunately.

 

My suggestion?  Do NOT let her guess.  In fact, I would not require her to read out loud at all right now.  Get her using the High Noon program and eliminate any out loud reading except for what that program suggests (if any).

 

Have you read any books on dyslexia?

[WaterLily]

Hi! :) Thanks for your reply and helpful input, as usual. I have borrowed several books from the library and read parts that I found helpful....but have yet to read one in its entirety. They're generally very large books lol! I should probably buy one or two to keep as references. Overcoming Dyslexia seemed like a good one... What other books would be favorites?

 

Thanks for the advice on guessing. I am anxious to start High Noon but need to figure out which level. Since I already have level 1 we could go ahead and start it but I don't want to waste time if she'd be ready for level 2. Hoping to figure that out before starting if possible. Hopefully some High Noon users will chime in.

 

I considered Barton but the cost was a problem and I decided to try something else. I can reconsider Barton if High Noon doesn't work for some reason...

 

Thanks again! :)

[OneStepAtATime]

Hi again.  I was reading through the posts you made several months ago, right after you issued the Barton screening.  I can't recall, though, if you ever did LiPS?  

 

My suggestion is to start with Level 1 of High Noon right now.  Just do it.  If, as you are going, it seems to really be too basic, then maybe consider moving up a level.  Honestly, though, it was when I finally accepted that certain very basic pieces were missing and I needed to get those pieces solidly in place first that DD and DS started making progress.  Going all the way back to the very basic building blocks of reading was the key.  Every time I tried to skip forward, we ended up losing ground until those pieces were in place.  

 

You already have Level 1.  You are anxious to start.  So start.  It won't hurt a thing and may actually help tremendously.  Start now.  Begin at the beginning.  If she can move quickly through, then great!  If she struggles a bit, even further into the program, slow down.  But I would honestly say just use it through Christmas starting right now.   Begin ASAP.  Then you can reevaluate for the new year.  

 

I wasted time fearing I was wasting time.  I tried hopping over the basics since the kids were not little bitty anymore.  Heck, DD was technically in 6th grade when we started remediation.  I was honestly insulted when I got Barton Level 1.  It seemed SOOOO basic.  Not even letters on the tiles.  Just sound association.  And yet, that was a critical component of unlocking true decoding and fluency for my kids.  

 

I can only speak to my own personal experience and many posts I have read here, but there are a lot of moms that found the same thing.  Starting over with the very basic building blocks of learning wasn't actually taking a step back.  It was finally solidifying all the poorly built foundation our kids were trying to build their knowledge and skills base on.  They had been working in quicksand.  Going back gives them a good concrete foundation.  Real progress only began to happen once we accepted that need, recognized that for many children there are no short cuts, and just did it.

 

Hugs and best wishes.

[OneStepAtATime]

Oh, and as for grammar, as I mentioned, I am using Barton so grammar is included, gently, in the early levels, but we will be starting Fix-It Grammar once DD has completed Level 4.  As I understand it, the new Fix-It Grammar is way better than the old one and several families I know that have dyslexic kids are using it successfully so far.  Of course, the revised one only came out this year so that may not mean much.

 

What does High Noon say about grammar, if anything?  Does it give you any instruction regarding incorporating writing/grammar from outside sources?

[Pen]

We used HighNoon successfully--and I think I was the first or one of the first to be mentioning it to people here. The only problem is that we are now 2+ years past using it, and I am starting to forget what is what.  By level one do you mean of the Intervention Program with a mainly orange cover (if it is the same as it was) that starts with basic letter sounds for the first lesson as I recall?

 

Since you are wondering if your level is right, I'd suggest going to the very last lessons of the level you have and see if your child can read them fluently, without errors, with a sense of feeling, excellent comprehension, and at a speed that is correct for her age/grade. In other words, flawless reading except perhaps slower than an excellent adult reader can read it (you can call HN and ask them what the target speed for a child her age/grade is if you don't know).

 

If yes, she can read it perfectly and understand it completely, send it back during the money-back time (if they still have that 30 day return option) and get the next level. If not, then you have the right level. If you have the right level, I'd start at the beginning perhaps working very quickly on the first parts if they are easy review, but to make sure that nothing is missing at the basic building blocks level, and to make sure fluency is achieved at each point both for passage reading and for individual word reading. 

 

If you have all the components from HN, it has some limited grammar in the Intervention program workbooks in the form of having to put scrambled sentences into an order that makes sense, and, other than correcting spoken language for grammar, I'd let that be enough for the moment.  The workbooks that go with the readers have yet more of those types of exercises as I recall.

[Pen]

PS with errors as between his and this, store and show, you probably do have the right level if it is the book I am thinking it is. My ds used to do similar, though pail for pile, fire for five, when for where, or vice versa, as I recall some of them. HN used diligently did well to alleviate that.

 

When we went through the lessons, I would pencil a circle in the teacher book around all missed words to have them reviewed again the next session. And if a type of word was causing a problem we would work on the extended practice for it from the teacher book.

 

Also  we used to use a finger or pencil to help follow where ds was, sometimes above the line rather than below it. At first I moved the pencil, but soon ds did it himself, which worked better.

[WaterLily]

Thank you both so much for your feedback!

 

No, we haven't done LiPS. I can't remember exactly why I decided to go with High Noon instead... might've been that I wasn't sure if we really needed LiPS and also the cost factor? I would still consider LiPS, and Barton for that matter, but I think we're going to try High Noon first. I really hope it's what we need.

 

I can't send it back if it's the wrong level b/c I got it used....but I got a really good deal so I'll just resell if necessary. I only have the teacher book and student book so far. I'd really like to get the workbook and readers but I was wanting to make sure we have the right level before spending more $. It was helpful that I finally took the time to read through the beginning of the teacher book! I found that there is a placement test in the teacher book which I didn't realize! :). The placement test will tell me where she should start in level 1 or if she's ready for level 2. So I plan to do that asap. I am thinking that we will end up using level 1 though.

 

I'm still concerned about grammar. My dd has speech therapy once a week at the public school and also meets with the resource teacher about once every 9 weeks. So far she's only met with the resource teacher once but what she said got me thinking that we need to be working more on grammar. In fact, here is what she shared with me in case anyone has any thoughts....

 

"For writing, she needs to pre-plan before writing anything out. When she was writing her story she would forget what she had already said and it didn’t have much flow.

 

Also, she is still struggling with understanding what a complete sentence is. I would re-view understanding that a sentence needs a subject and a verb. I also encouraged her to re-read everything that she thought was a sentence to help it make sense.

 

For reading, she has the read aloud accommodation so I read a lot to her. Her fluency is still very choppy and labored. I would encourage doing fluency reads with her. I can make you a copy of my fluency book. She would read three times for one minute each to try and raise her score. Doing this daily helps them understand unfamiliar words and has them practice. I also had to re-word a lot of questions. Please encourage her to look back in the text. She was pretty adamant about guessing what the answer was instead of finding it in the text. ;)"

 

Thanks again!!!

[OneStepAtATime]

Does this resource person have specific training with how to deal with dyslexia?  Or just general special ed instruction?  What is their background?  

 

The reason I had asked about LiPS was that your child had some issues with the Barton screening several months ago, IIRC.   The screening is not just to see if your child could do Barton.  The screening is useful for seeing if your child needs specialized instruction that goes back further than most reading systems go.  But you are saying that your child is in speech therapy so LiPS may not be needed at all.  You could always issue the Barton screening again before you start High Noon to see if additional remediation is needed.

 

By the way, I do urge you to please read up on Dyslexia in detail, as much research as you can.  I hate to add concerns to your plate, but even my mother, a ps reading specialist who worked with remedial readers and advanced readers will tell you that MANY ps resource specialists are not properly trained or informed in how to deal with dyslexia.  If you come in with a lot of your own background knowledge you will be in a better position to determine if what they are telling you has merit for your child's specific situation.

 

Have you watched this video?

http://www.elishevaschwartz.com/blog/2014/09/19/susan-barton-a-strength-based-perspective-on-dyslexia/

 

There are also some interesting videos on the Dyslexic Advantage Website.  You might watch those, too.

 

Good luck and best wishes.

 

 

[Pen]

If you can't send it back anyway, I'd suggest you not only do the placement, but also you might want to just start at the beginning. If she is already fluent at that lesson;s level it will go very, very fast. If she is not fluent at that level, she needs to be. I was surprised with my ds when we started bec. I thought he knew all letters and main consonant letter sounds, and learned from trying lesson 1 that he actually did not.