Should we switch from Saxon??

[SaltLifeNC]

Hi everyone,

 

My DD's are finishing up Saxon 7/6 (we started homeschooling last October). We had them tested in May with the Woodcock-Johnson and they did very well in math scoring advanced to very advanced in the math sections.

 

They don't particularly like Saxon, so I'd like to explore other options. I had planned to do Saxon 8/7 next with the DIVE CD's but I'd like to hear others input. I looked at AoPS Pre-Algebra and like that it has videos to go along with it, does it review much or could I supplement something to review? Does anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks!

[FriedClams]

We love Saxon,but mostly because we love the Art Reed DVDs. He's great! Suscicnt, quirky, short. We love him.

[Mike in SA]

If they don't like Saxon, find out why.  Is it because Saxon is repetitive, or because they feel the material is "forced" (don't know why they are doing each thing)?

 

If it is either, then avoid all spiral programs, Saxon included.

[MiMi 4under3]

Aops is sort of the opposite of Saxon - more of a discovery method as opposed to rote learning. It is not spiral like Saxon - Aops reviews the current chapter, not previous ones.

 

DD13 doesn't love Saxon, but we are doing 8/7 and Aops pre-A, spaced out throughout the day. She needs the spiral method of Saxon to remember what she learned last week or last month, and the Aops provides the why of what she's learning. We don't use videos for either.

 

The only other programs I have experience with are Jousting Armadillos (sort of similar to Aops) and CLE (similar to Saxon). Harold Jacob's Elementary Algebra is en route from Amazon...

 

Other names I've heard on the boards are Foerster's, Lial's, Dolciani... Not sure if these are Algebra or pre-A....

 

 

[...................]

Not a Saxon fan here.  Used it with my son from grade 2 to grade 6 and we haven't exactly had stellar results. He scores very high on basic arithmetic-calculating numbers on paper, but has a lot of problems with problem solving.  Additionally, 87's lessons are Loooooonnnnnnggggg.  If you think 7/6 lessons are long, then be prepared because 8/7 are twice as long.  The spiral/incremental approach may seem like some amazing concept (they will never forget anything!) but it is not a good concept.  Who would have actually said to themselves, at any time in human history, "Oh.  I know.  Let's take a subject built on logic and real world concepts and turn it into pure algorithms.  Then let's divide each algorithm or process up into 3 processes.  Then let's see how many processes/topics should be covered in 6th grade. OK, 40 processes, and intersperse them out into 120 different lessons, so they will only see the same topic every 9 lessons! And, who cares about applying all this math?  That'll come naturally!"

 

We are going to be using Dolciani this year, and we have hired a tutor at the cost of about 1200.00 to undo what Saxon did in terms of lack of problems solving throughout the years.  

 

Meanwhile my dd who is using Horizons is supplememting with Zaccaro's...Horizons is spiral but NOT incremental, so it's still way ahead of Saxon, even though the spiral jumps around a bit.

[...................]

Oh, and from my own research lately:

Jacobs is algebra.  If your dd has only finished Saxon 7/6 she is not ready for this.  She will need a lot more practice to cement what she learned there.

 

Lial's is cheap, and there's a solutions manual, and it's mastery based and the word problems are GOOD.  Not MOEMS level, but very very good.  But, it's huge, heavy, cluttered, and can be overwhelming.  There is a solutions manual available for purchse.  Huge plus.  You can find this used for about 20 bucks!  This is a remedial college textbook.  It's just not designed for kids, in terms of size and clutter ...but it's a good book and we will use it if I think I can't swing Dolciani without a solutions manual.

 

Dolciania (Pre Algebra, an accelerated course) is a fairly fast paced book.  I haven't received mine yet but the reason I have high hopes for it is that everyone says it is far less cluttered than Lials'  Dolciani is a hardback textbook made for 7th graders, or 8th graders, so it is written and designed for kids...but there's no solutions manual....the answers are in the back but sometimes that's not really enough.  

 

We had AOPS, but this is for kids who *already* love math, see it is a fun challenge, and like to discover math AND probably already have a great problem solving foundation AND a brave mom willing to try something quite different.  I sold mine...there was no point trying past the first chapter.

 

We also tried the idea of using the entire series of Key To workbooks as pre-Algebra, and this was not the worst idea in the world.  I left out a few of the beginning books, and did the calculations and my son would have had to do 5 pages per day to get through the material, much of it that he had covered in 5th and 6th grade....5 pages is way way too much because there are often 20  problems per page ...even with taking books out, it just didn't quite fit.  HOWEVER they are awesome for what they were intended for- as a supplement!  They are wonderfully happily clear with plenty of white space though.   :o)

 

Math Mammoth...This is a very advanced pre-algebra course.  SO much of the samples look to me more like arithmetic with Algebra 1.  I think my son would love it, if he could do it...which I am not convinced of coming from Saxon.  However, I had already purchased Dolciani before I realized this was an option.  But if your dd is bright and likes math, this probably would work.  the second half of the year is supposed to come out in January.

 

So, you can see why, for us, Dolciani is the best bet after Saxon 7/6.  It's advanced but not extremely so.  It covers all pre-alg concepts, and from what I hear (don't quote me) it is uncluttered and user/reader friendly. If you are willing to be creative and ask a friend when you are stuck, then you can do without a solutions manual.  My son hopefully will sail smoothly from Dolciani to either Jacobs or Dolciani Algebra.  

 

Hope this helps.  I feel like that pre algebra support group is such a good idea.  Maybe some medicine too.

 

Update: We are back to Saxon plus supplementing with AOPS very slowly and a tutor.  My son apparently can only learn through the incremental spiral drill method.  :(

[SaltLifeNC]

Lol, thank you so much for your post Calming Tea, especially the last sentence :). This is only our second year homeschooling so I still have the "I don't want to screw this up" mentality. I looked at Dochiani last year, and I think it's the same book I used in the 80's for pre-algebra!

 

You are so right about the word problems...I think that's my main concern with Saxon. I went with it last year because coming out of public school my girls didn't really have a good grasp of math facts and even though 7/6 was review for them and easy ( according to them) I thought it was the best choice at the time, because I really didn't have a clue...

 

I don't dislike Saxon, but I don't want to cheat them either. I will look at MM again - I looked at it for my son who is in 1st grade.

 

And, if 8/7's lessons are longer than 7/6...they may tie me up and throw me in a closet...sigh

 

Thank you for the input!

[...................]

You are so welcome. If your goal last year really was to shore up math facts after public school then you probably made a  great choice.  But, the longer a child stays in Saxon, (especially without supplement) the worse their Big Picture of math gets.  I found Dolciani for 16.00.  Not bad!  

 

Also, for your first grade son, get Math Mammoth!!! Our math tutor runs the Math Counts/MOEMS math club, and two of her kids competed nationally, and her daughter competed internationally (She was one of the top female winners int he entire US).  This lady recommends Singapore or Math Mammoth.  Math Mammoth is a little more user friendly. 

[SaltLifeNC]

We are doing Singapore and Miquon with him right now...I am definitely going to look further into MM before we get too far because I'd really like to find something we LIKE and stick with it :).

[...................]

Singapore is awesome and so is Miquon  You will NOT go wrong with those.  :o)

 

Meanwhile, I am also sitting here wondering if we can just use this stack of Key To books, taking out the stuff I know that he knows that he knows and just use the books that are left, as a complete pre-alg course....they are such friendly happy books.  :o)  But there must be a reason others don't do that..IDK

 

[Cabertmom]

Here's our experience: We went from Horizons to Math Mammoth, which I love. I think her explanations are fantastic. We have not used the prealgebra program, though, but if it is like the light blue elementary series, I would think it would be quite good. We also love Life of Fred around here, which I notice that no one mentioned. It brought joy into math. I think you might find it similar to Art of Problem Solving in terms of the idea of challenge and interest instead of rote, but it may be considerably easier for someone who isn't totally in love with math. In fact, I would say Fred is responsible for one of my children becoming a very strong lover of math. I haven't used AoPS, though, so I can't compare the two. I just know it by reputation as being the best of the best for mathy kids. I will say that we first discovered Fred after 1 semester of both my two oldest children getting really frustrated with Jacob's Algebra. It's not that Jacob's was bad, but it really requires a good math teacher, which I am not. Fred was like a breath of fresh air.