Primary Language Lessons by Lingua Mater- Questions

[Trivium Academy]

Oh my, I just saw inside pages of this at Hillside Education, and I'm kicking myself for not really looking into this before now! This is what inexperience does, I had my blinders on trying to make sure I didn't somehow fail my dd regarding her academics.

 

Reviews at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Primary-Language-Lessons-Lingua-Mater/dp/0976638630

 

Okay, my dd7 is currently doing a workbook that has her practice:

capitalization, ending punctuation, commas, quotations, apostrophes, nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, pronouns and subject-verb agreement. This is all we're doing for grammar after we decided to stop using FLL.

 

I'm a little confused as what to do at this point, :eek: so please help me. This week we've abandoned everything but phonics ETC/reading aloud (currently on 2-3rd grade level), math, grammar, spelling (SWO C), poetry.

 

Here's the little plan I worked out so far:

3rd - finish ETC books, Writing Tales 1, Spelling Workout C/D, Primary Language Lessons

4th - Writing Tales 2, Spelling Workout D/E, Intermediate Language Lessons

5th - Classical Writing: Poetry for Beginners, Spelling Workout E/F, Intermediate Language Lessons, Junior Analytical Grammar

 

6th: Classical Composition Chreia, Junior Analytical Grammar, Critical Thinking Books 1&2 *or* Art of the Argument, SWO F/G

7th: CC:Maxim, Analytical Grammar, Traditional Logic I & II, SWO G/H

8th: CC: Refutation/Confirmation, Common Topic, Traditional II or Material Logic, Analytical Grammar, Vocab from Classic Roots A/B

9th: CC Encomium/Invective/Comparison, Material Logic or Classical Rhetoric*, Analytical Grammar, Vocab from Classic Roots C/D

 

Start formal Rhetoric in 9th or 10th so we can spend 11th and 12th in the Great Books.

 

From this, I think I could take the rest of this year and possibly some of 3rd and use Primary Language Lessons and then move onto Writing Tales 1 (?) or do them together in 3rd? From what I have outlined above, I have a year to play with right because Writing Tales 1 is narrative and fable.

 

Another question:

Does Primary Language Lessons cover mechanics and punctuation? Would it be best to keep using the workbook we are now (that dd enjoys) for practice outside of the PLL lessons?

 

Does anyone not use the poetry memorization in PLL and just use their own? Or would it better/easier to use it? We're currently using The Harp and Laurel Wreath for poetry memorization.

 

I'm excited, this has all the elements that both dd & I love. She adores picture study and art books with questions about the pictures, I love the copywork and dictation help as well as the instruction in different types of writing. I just bruised my backside from how hard I've kicked myself! :o

 

Our ultimate goal is to go through the progymnasmata in preparation for formal rhetoric in high school.

 

Please advise, I'm trying here! Lol. Yes I am aware that Lingua Mater is Catholic, btw.

[Polly]

The Queen Homeschooling Language Lesson books and the Serl books are similar. From the little I've looked at PLL I think Queen's books have more punctuation. I might be wrong. If I have time I'll look later as I have both.

[Trivium Academy]

Okay, now I have another concern- after looking at the sample provided for

Language Lessons for the Very Young by Sandi Queen

 

I see where the lesson teaches about pluralizing nouns but I didn't see a rule to learn or a lesson that teaches the child when to use the -s, -es, -ies, etc.

Not that I cannot figure out how to do it myself but I just wanted to check on that. Otherwise it seems there is not much difference between this one and Primary Language Lessons. I do wish I could see a Table of Contents for the McQueen book.

[Dawn E]

I don't have a review of this or advice, but I have been wanting Hillside's PLL for some time. I even emailed the company last year to ask questions re: what was updated from the original Serl copy, and they very kindly provided this response:

Thank you for your interest in our version of Primary Language Lessons.

Almost all of Serl's original text is there. We replaced some of the letter

writing activities with other kinds of writing, we changed a few of the

poems, and added more pictures. We replaced a reproduction piece about St.

Valentine with one about St George and replaced a conversation piece on an

outdated topic with a quote by St. Dominic Savio. We made the

print larger and each page larger with a spiral binding so that it will lay

flat on the desk.

 

I was very excited to see a couple of weeks ago that Amazon is now selling it, though it was not in stock when I last checked. Free shipping! Yay!

 

We are currently doing GWG 1/2, but it is such a quick lesson that I think I can add this in without a problem. My main desire is to have the picture studies. I am a couple of years behind you, but plan to continue GWG and add WT1 when the time is right.

 

I personally did not think Queen's was different enough to choose over Serl's, but I did not thoroughly compare the two.

 

Dawn

[mcconnellboys]

Oh, Jessica, I just posted a lengthy reply to you and when I hit send it disappeared and I can NOT get it back. OY! I'll have to repost to you tonight as I must run right now. I do think you will love PLL,

 

Regena

[Kfamily]

Hi Jessica!

I have this book and used it with dd10. In fact, I am using Intermediate Language Lessons with her now which is for grades 4-6. I love these books but I find that it is not a good fit for many others. Many feel it is not structured enough, but I use this with other resources. We are using Writing Tales 2 along with the ILL and this works for us this year. Next year I do plan to hit grammar hard with Voyages in English 6 and Elementary Diagramming Worktext so we will be better prepared for CW Homer. I still plan on using the last section of ILL for 6th. These books round out her language experience to me and she enjoys them.

PLL has plenty of usage, composition, picture study, memory work and at a glance I see many lessons on letter writing and also lessons on contractions, types of sentences, the comma and capital letters. My dd's favorite lessons include the picture study and the compositions. PLL gives structure in what to write and what to include in your composition but she loves the freedom to be creative and make it her own. If you want to keep her up with parts of speech and punctuation (although don't forget copywork and all that dictation can really hit punctuation) then I would suggest keeping the workbook alongside if you decide on PLL. PLL will not cover parts of speech in the way that traditional textbooks will cover it. Hillside, I believe is currently or has just finished a teacher's guide to this book which I think would be very helpful and might round it out in a way that those who disliked before might like.

HTH

Lisa

[Kfamily]

I thought they would make up for the parts of speech but while they cover some parts of speech they did not get all 8. It would be a good workbook approach to cover punctuation and major parts of speech but it sounds like you have that covered. Just wanted to mention it.

Lisa

[Trivium Academy]

Do you think doing PLL & Writing Tales 1 in 3rd would be okay? We'd start PLL now (or as soon as it arrives after I decide to buy it). It's not that I don't feel Writing Tales is enough but using PLL or ILL would cover a lot of areas for us (copywork, dictation, creative writing, etc.) that I *think* dd would enjoy.

 

I need to think more about long term, how each year will build on the next and what would be best. SWB saying that starting the progymnasmata in 7th grade is better is on my mind but I have a IRL friend who has finished the progym with her 8th grader & 7th grader and plans to just have them hone their skills further.

 

Whirling thoughts, whirling thoughts...

[Kfamily]

I think Writing Tales 1 and PLL in 3rd would be perfect. I really love WT2 and wish her 3 would be ready in time. Since it will not be I know our next step is CW Homer but I've heard the grammar is serious which is why I want to spend 6th really hitting grammar. Since we haven't done that (not at that level) and no diagramming I felt it was time. I wish I felt prepared enough to tackle all of this on my own but I think my own education is not strong enough for where I want her to go. I plan on hitting the books myself.

[Kfamily]

Sorry about that. The site is Lost Classics Books. Just wanted to correct that.

[LindaOz]

Hi Jessica,

 

I am currently using PLL with two of my dc and I really like it. I like that it uses copywork, dictation, narration, picture study, discussion and memory and the way it introduces mechanics and punctuation through usage. The lessons are fairly short (which really suits one of my dc) but you could easily do two lessons if you wanted to move ahead more quickly. As for the memory, I do both. We use the memory pieces in PLL and do some extra as well - but you really could do either. Not using the memory selections in PLL wouldn't be a problem.

 

I have also bought Intermediate Language Lessons and am planning to use it next with these two dc. It looks great and I can't wait to use it.

 

Please feel free to ask if I can help any more.

Linda

[Trivium Academy]

What grade level(s) are your children? Do you have the Lingua Mater versions of PLL and ILL?

What other curriculum do you use? Esp. alongside?

Have you chosen a writing curricula to use later?

 

LOL, 20 Questions...

[Linda...inOwasso]

LOL Jessica.... I just ordered PLL a couple of days ago from amazon.com! Great minds think alike :)

[mcconnellboys]

Okay, Jessica, I'm back sooner than I thought due to the temps outside! I'll try to answer this again (and copy it before I hit the reply button this time, in case it disappears again, LOL).

 

I have never used Writing Tales and don't think I've even seen that series at convention yet. I can look at things online all day and still not really understand them until I can get them in my hands, so I would be no help at all on those.

 

With regard to Primary Language Lessons, I think you've found a real gem. The follow-up to it, Intermediate Language Lessons, is also good. PLL is geared toward 2/3rd grades, so I don't think you've missed the boat at all in using it - stop kicking yourself. New curricula comes out all the time and great old stuff gets revised and reissued, so we can't hope to keep up with everything. How wonderful is this new world order of homeschooling that we find ourselves entering into! I remember when I was young there weren't even that many great kids books available for me to read. And homeschoolers had to beg and scrape to find materials even in the '80's - now just look at us!

 

I've seen info before on the reissuance of these books with color pictures. I think that's wonderful and will only make them more accessible to very young children.

 

I'm not sure why you've left off with FLL, so I'll take a guess based on what I've heard from others here. Perhaps it was too repetitive? If so, I think there's still plenty of good to glean from it if you just cut out the repetition and move through it more rapidly. We did some of that when we were covering it, too. We also added in work from PLL and then did more PLL last year, along with R&S. I think I first heard about PLL/ILL from Jessie Wise. In fact, I believe that Mrs. Wise somewhat modeled her FLL after the structure of PLL/ILL, with modern updates.

 

I will try to respond to some of your specific questions below:

 

"Does Primary Language Lessons cover mechanics and punctuation? Would it be best to keep using the workbook we are now (that dd enjoys) for practice outside of the PLL lessons?"

 

By all means if she enjoys the workbook, then I would say "yes", continue with it. If you can picture a one room schoolhouse with the teacher going over lessons orally with the children, that's what PLL/ILL are like. It's more a primer of correct usage, sort of like Abeka's Oral Language Lessons (but so much more, I think).

 

PLL is more of the oral exercises, which may include correct usage of various verb forms, etc., but without going into the fact that they're verbs or WHY specific forms are correct. You already know that there's a lot of copywork and dictation included. Many of the picture studies include questions to go along with them and should be a lot of fun with the pictures now in color. The poetry is going to be more complex in terms of syntax, reflecting the era in which it was written. Even if you don't memorize all the selections, many also have accompanying questions for study (similar to the poetry studies in R&S). I can't really recall any punctuation work, per se, in PLL. I would pull my book to look, but I sold it just this fall. There is a little punctuation work in ILL.

 

In looking at ILL, which is more for 4/5th or even 6th grades, you do begin to see actual treatment of sentence types, and the parts of grammar explained and drilled. It is a little heftier book than PLL. ILL includes prose selections in addition to poetry. There is letter writing in both. There's work in ILL on dictionary skills and vocabulary. Some outlining is also covered.

 

"Does anyone not use the poetry memorization in PLL and just use their own? Or would it better/easier to use it? We're currently using The Harp and Laurel Wreath for poetry memorization."

 

Again, the syntax is going to be more complex. It's been a while since I looked at Harp and Laurel - do they use simplified versions of poems for children, as Mrs. Wise did in writing FLL? I think those were a lot more fun for my son to memorize than the things from PLL. We did memorize some things from PLL; others we just used for poetry study. I think they're still valuable even if not used for memorization. As I mentioned above, there are questions to go along with some.

 

Some dictation continues into ILL. I would think that your daughter would enjoy both books for the picture studies, especially with the colorization available now, as well as the poetry studies. There are also other "studies" that we found to be a lot of fun, covering various common sense themes and requiring the student to speak clearly and concisely, in complete sentences, in responding to the questions. It almost seems to me like beginning public speaking skills (remember the "recitations" of the old, one-room schoolhouses?)

 

I have the older, still b/w versions by Lost Classics Book Company. I would think you'd get great mileage out of this series with your little ones. Have fun!

 

Regena

[LindaOz]

What grade level(s) are your children? Do you have the Lingua Mater versions of PLL and ILL?

What other curriculum do you use? Esp. alongside?

Have you chosen a writing curricula to use later?

 

 

20 questions is fine ;)

 

My two using PLL have just started 4th and 2nd (we have just started our new school year in Australia). The older of the two started with PLL last year in 3rd. She had been using another curriculum but the grammar concepts were not sticking, and she was struggling with writing. I knew I wanted to do more dictation and written narration with her and then I came across PLL. It was perfect for her giving constant practise in the writing skills I wanted her to develop. She also does better with something that gives clear instruction to the student which PLL does. She can go ahead with it on her own, unless there are discussion questions or dictation, which is what this child thrives on. My aim is for her to finish PLL this year (maybe earlier) to consolidate, and then move on to ILL. My 2nd grader has started it too and, so far, is doing very well with it.

 

I actually have the older version of PLL, although I have the Lingua Mater edition of ILL. I think the main difference are the coloured pictures and some more modernized writing assignments, although I haven't had a problem with using the old version.

 

Alongside PLL we are using a spelling program, and then just written narration in other areas like history, literature etc. They keep a Bible journal where they write a short 'narration' each day about what they read. They also do extra copywork in subject areas.

 

I don't have a writing curriculum lined up. I'm a bit of a believer in developing writing skills through narration, etc (no flames please:rolleyes:) as I have seen great success using this method with my 6th and 7th graders who are proficient writers. To me, PLL and ILL are an organized way of using these methods to develop writing skills. I kind of wish I had used them when my older two were younger, although they are now thriving with LLATL.

 

Anyway, this turned into an essay didn't it? :rolleyes:

I hope it was helpful. Please let me know if anything doesn't make sense.

 

Blessings,

Linda

[Dawn E]

I just wanted to say thank you to all of you for your wonderful, detailed posts. I have been interested in this material for some time. I am more certain than ever that I want to purchase this to use alongside GWG. Thank you, Jessica, for asking about it. I have in the past, but sometimes it just takes asking at the right time.

[Trivium Academy]

Thank you Regena! FLL just fell flat with us, we need something more visual, more interactive than what FLL provides- I love the examples of PLL, especially how it covers things I might forget to do (aaahem) during the week if it was left up to just me to remember to do. Dd7 will love the picture studies which were too far and between in FLL. Thank you for taking the time to respond, 2x even!

[hsm]

these books (pll and ILL) are very deceptive. there is a wealth of great ideas in them, yet at first glance, they seem un-rigourous. Well, they aren't exactly rigorours, but they are thought provoking. The writing assignments In ILL, especially, are really quite good, imo. They are not progym-type, but they are good assignment for practicing practical writing with a flair for beauty, if that makes sense. YOu probably do not need to add anything to your all ready full writing plan, but if you pick and choose assignments, vary which books you teach from, (ie--don't try to do everything in all the books you have planned) there are some really wonderful composition ideas. My children have responded really well to these assignments. I like the books a great deal. The systemic grammar instruction really is not in these books...the approach is more natural, internalizing good form. But you have grammar covered quite well with WT, French, ILL/PLL. I use many of the ideas from these 2 books, but I also do other things. I don't think I would try to complete ILL, CW, WT2 in their complete forms in two years. Well, to be honest I don't know how extensive the assignments are in CW-poetry and WT2, but it seems a lot....just curious have you looked at immitation in writing--poetry?wish someone would review it... and have you seen the sample of lingua mater? wish I could see more of that one up close. Happy Planning

[hsm]

when i mentioned lingua mater, i meant the lessons from literature, not PLL/ILL. I meant the one to be used after ILL. Please forgive my typos above

[Trivium Academy]

Hi Hsm,

I understand what you're saying, I think when we have WT2 and ILL- it'll be a pick/choose situation b/c I'm sure WT2 would lead but I haven't committed to ILL, I only mention it b/c it is the natural progression after using PLL. If we love PLL as much as I think we're going to, we might not want to leave it behind...lol.

 

CW Poetry for Beginners is from what I understand- set up to fit any age learner, I think it's only 11 weeks of lessons so if WT2 continues into the next year, we can still cover Poetry from Beginners. At least I think! Lol. I really just wanted to show where the path dh and I choose will take the kids' education and how important these earlier decisions are in light of that. Logic and rhetoric are very important to us, we hope to equip our children to read, think, speak and write well which is why we feel classical education fits our goals the best. Are we 100% sure we'll use Classical Composition, nah- but it's the most complete progymnasmata program available at this point.

 

I think the natural, internalizing good form of PLL is really what we need at this point. I'll look into Imitation of Writing. There ARE sample pages of Lingua Mater Language Lessons from Literature at the Hillside Education website: http://hillsideeducation.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=19

 

:) Thank you for you input, I'm very blessed that all of you put up with me and my questions!