Math help ... (long)

[Beth in IN]

Okay ... after spending the last two years reading these boards and getting more and more confused about which math to use, I am going to post this.

 

Just a little background ... My dd13(finishing 7th grade) used A Beka math up until 6th grade when I decided to move her to pre-algebra because the A Beka 6 seemed to be just review. Now the past two years seem to be just a big waste(I am exagerating ... slightly;)). We have done TT pre-algebra, key to's and LOF, and the only thing I think that has happened is we know that she needs some sort of Spriral method. The TT she got during the lessons and then took a test and the information was just gone from her head. Same with LOF. So she definately needs more drill and review.

 

So I am thinking of moving back to something more traditional because she seemed to do so much better when she did A Beka. But ... I want her to get it, not just memorize. She is not "mathy" but also not what I would call bad at math(does that make sense?).

 

Just to make matters more complicated, I have a bunch of things we could use.

 

Lial's Basic College Math(don't really like the flow)

Chalkdust Pre-Algebra(heard it was more difficult the Jacobs Algebra

Jacobs Algebra

First Module of Video Text(willing to buy the rest if it works but heard review is minimal)

Saxon Algebra 1/2(most likely choice but does it explain the "whys")

 

Is there anybody who has done maybe a combo of say Saxon and Video Text?

 

Sorry for my long winded post. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.:)

 

Beth

[Willow]

Well I KNOW its not popular here but have you consider Math U See. It is so easy to actually understand maths with this programme. I think we will finish the whole lot by 11th grade so we will have time to do a more rigorous programme if he needs it.

 

BUT I would rather he did MUS and actually understood and mastered everything there, than did an advanced academic course and retained maybe 75% of it.

[Beth in IN]

Willow-

 

I agree about the understanding. I would rather her get it then to just be able to say "we did a rigorous program".

 

How about the review in MUS?

[Brindee]

Have you checked into BJU? I've never used it, just thought I'd throw another name out there.:001_smile:

[Willow]

Willow-

 

I agree about the understanding. I would rather her get it then to just be able to say "we did a rigorous program".

 

How about the review in MUS?

 

We find there is enough. For each lesson there are 3 practice pages. Do 1, 2 or 3, however many are needed to truly know it. Then there are 3 review pages. Each set of 3 has one major review 'lesson' but the actual questions can be anything they have done. Then there is a 'test' page where the questions can be anything and there are no 'instructions' or examples.

 

generally we do 1 practice and 1 review, so we do 2 lessons a week. On the 5th day we do a test. But lessons have been known to take 3 weeks to master, also we have done them in a day and on rare occasions, 2 a day. (when it is a concept he has met before and knows well)

[Beth in IN]

What do the "critics" say is wrong with MUS for higher level math?

[Annabelle's Mom]

Your experience is similar to ours. We also switched from ABeka to TT Pre Algebra and we are so ready to be done with it. No TT ever again for us! I really liked ABeka Algebra for my son who was very math challenged. We found the explanations very understandable (unlike Saxon 1 which made us crazy).

[Sharon in MD]

We didn't use the higher level program because at the time we were about to start Algebra I think the program only went as far as AL II or Geometry. And we knew that we needed a heavy math emphasis for him as well.

 

I know some folks don't feel that it is rigorous enough, but you must ask yourself the question "Rigorous enough for what?" That will vary from student to student based on what they will probably head into for a career. My personal feeling is that the most important thing is that they "get" it, not that they managed to push through a course so that we can put it on the transcript. And, if your dd is not headed for a math intensive college major, why worry about it being "rigorous"?

 

I really liked the way Math U See had such great explanations of the whys of math. I liked the reviews and the way there were multiple practice sheets for each new lesson. That way I could be really sure that ds got it before we moved on. You should try to catch them at a curriculum fair and look it over.

[Beth in IN]

I will look at MUS, although I just watched a video online and I was a bit confused. I am just wondering if starting a more conceptual program this late in the game will be even more confusing.

 

I don't know exactly how to put it with TT but as I started going through it with her(before I decided to sell it). It was driving me nuts how they would do it in such small increments. I am wondering if Saxon is the same way. She needs the concept taught and then do it over and over. It is great that there are so many choices out there, but it drives me a little nuts, because they all claim to be "the best" and I see them all and each one has some stuff I like and some I don't.

[Beth in IN]

Your experience is similar to ours. We also switched from ABeka to TT Pre Algebra and we are so ready to be done with it. No TT ever again for us! I really liked ABeka Algebra for my son who was very math challenged. We found the explanations very understandable (unlike Saxon 1 which made us crazy).

 

Are you headed back to ABeka then?

[yslek]

I was like your dd through Algebra and Geometry. Then I switched to a school district that used Saxon, and suddenly I was good at math again! The incremental approach was absolutely the best thing for retention, for me. It sounds like the Saxon approach might be good for your dd.

 

The downside with the explanations is that it can sometimes be difficult to remember/find an explanation you've forgotten. (Also, I don't remember how much of the "now I get it!" feeling was due to Saxon, and how much of it was due to my teachers. I think it must have at least been partly Saxon, because I had a couple of different teachers with Saxon and did well with both. :))

 

For someone who needs to keep practicing something constantly in order to continue to remember it, Saxon is great.

[LoriM]

I do not recommend the Saxon Algebra 1/2 book at this point. The new Saxon 8/7 (updated by Stephen Hake) is a better book, and you can go directly into Algebra from there. Or you could buy the "Course 2" book from the new middle school series (which is the 7th grade book). I've taught side-by-side out of the two books this year (Algebra 1/2 and Course 2) and Course 2 is *much* stronger, deeper, interesting and clearer.

 

I taught from A Beka Algebra and Algebra II, and had to spend a lot of time creating more examples and carefully choosing which problems my students worked--it's not so easy for home implementation unless you are a math teacher by trade. :)

 

Of the curricula you mentioned, Saxon is really the only "spiral" but you can make any program into one that reviews previous topics simply by using Friday as review day. I've done that with traditional books for years. Students cover four new sections M-Th, and then on Friday we play a math game, and work a "worksheet" that is simply a combination of some math facts and types of word problems that they need to review.

 

There is a developmental pattern in children with math that requires that they go through this "able to repeat the pattern" before they really get "OOOOOH, that's what the pattern means!" revelation. (Some kids go the other way, and just problem-solve without a pattern, and don't solve the same kind of problem the same way twice in a row...but eventually learn to develop a patterned habit.) Anyway, I don't think your child is very unusual in her ability to do math for the test, but forgetting everything she learned later in the year. :) Just keep pressing forward in good books, and reviewing "forgotten" concepts as necessary. Get some tutoring and advice from some local math teacher (just an occasional--"Is she on track?" can be very helpful).

 

HTH,

 

Lori

[Beth in IN]

Lori~

 

Thank you ... that was very helpful. This "course two" is the same as Saxon 87 or different?

 

Thanks,

 

Beth

[SheWhoWaits]

We had a similar experience. We have mostly used Chicago math. We never finished pre-algebra because we couldn't get through the textbook in a year (this was 6th grade) and I felt ds knew enough to move on to algebra. I now think that was a mistake. We finished half of algebra in 7th grade, but it was a big struggle. Then in 8th grade we hit puberty and a huge motivational problem. I switched him to ALEKS because I thought doing his work on the computer would give him some accountability. We did ALEKS for a year and a half and it turned out to be nothing but a big review of what he had already learned (or supposedly learned) in Chicago math. When he got out of his 13 year old funk and started caring about schoolwork again, he asked to switch back to Chicago math because he wasn't learning anything with ALEKS. So we did. This year (9th grade) we will finally finish algebra 1 after 3 years. But he does know algebra really well.

 

All that to say, you should consider Chicago math. It is a spiral approach. It also shows several different methods for solving a problem, so students can choose the one that works for them/makes the most sense/they can remember best. The multiple methods approach can be confusing to some students, but has worked terrifically for my two.

[Veronica in VA]

I agree with the recommendation of Math U See. There is plenty of review and dd is using it for geometry. The spiral method wasn't the best for us either. For Algebra I and II we used Math Relief, which again had plenty of review.

 

Veronica

[Harrison_B]

My younger son is using MUS (Pre-Algebra) and my older son is using Jacob's Algebra. I like MUS, but, what I am finding is that my younger son needs a guide to refer to when he is working out the problems. My older son likes Jacob's Algebra. He choosed this over VideoText Algebra. He did the first module in VT and he didn't like the format. He wanted a textbook to read and follow.

[Tullia]

LoriM has a good point about developmental issues, and her advice has always worked for us. :D Everyone chooses, rejects, or changes curricula for a variety of reasons so I don't like to say any particular program is good or bad.

 

We never tried a combination of Saxon and VT, however we did switch to VT after having used Saxon through 87. I should add that we had a year's detour through Jacobs Algebra between the two which is a whole different story. One of the things about Saxon that was most helpful for my son was the constant review. There were times when he needed more practice on the lesson concepts, but for the most part we liked it.

 

The difficulty I found with using Saxon for the high school years was that the way topics are developed can be difficult to teach for a non-mathy parent. It wasn't a problem in the early years, but I knew I would have a hard time continuing past 87. Saxon is a good program, and many folks use it successfully, but for some it can be confusing. I guess it would be possible to combine Saxon and VT, but I'm not sure how that would work given the differences between them.

 

We chose VT because it included most of what my son and I needed, but I did find it necessary to do extra review for the first couple of modules. The VT author says that the review is built-in and that is true, but it doesn't become apparent until about the end of the second module. At some point in the third module I dropped most of the extra review. I've heard from some people who do only a couple of modules and then switch because they feel VT doesn't offer enough review for their student. Others drop VT because they prefer having a textbook.

 

HTH,

Martha

Edited May 8, 2009 by Martha in NM
clarity

[Annabelle's Mom]

Your experience is similar to ours. We also switched from ABeka to TT Pre Algebra and we are so ready to be done with it. No TT ever again for us! I really liked ABeka Algebra for my son who was very math challenged. We found the explanations very understandable (unlike Saxon 1 which made us crazy).

At this point I can only answer "probably" for my son, unless I happen across something which seems better over the next 2 years. I found ABeka to be quite friendly for us. This is the first version, so may have been changed a lot in the last several editions. HOWEVER, since my son does seem to like the Saxon format, I may look into using the other resources available to supplement the Saxon book. Any current opinions about the DIVE CD's?

 

Linda

[LoriM]

Lori~

 

Thank you ... that was very helpful. This "course two" is the same as Saxon 87 or different?

 

Thanks,

 

Beth

 

I haven't compared the new 8/7 to the Course 2, but I expect it is *very* similar in scope and sequence. Ask your Saxon representative that question, and if you get a chance to look at them side-by-side, let us know.

 

Whichever one you go with, make sure it's the updated version by Stephen Hake.

[Susie-Knits]

since you already own Chalkdust PreAlgebra, I would use it. It is nicely used in 8th grade - reviewing basic and minimal explorations into algebra beginnings. The way I would "work" it is to watch the videos with my child, and work about 10 - 14 problems a day, and take a couple of days per section. My youngest did CD PreAlgebra in 8th grade and made great progress in math that year. He is not a natural mathematician! haha

It is a good foundational course to Algebra and you already own it - what could be better!

Just my 2 cents,

Susie

[Beth in IN]

You ladies are so helpful. My internet was out all day yesterday so I just got to read through some of these and it is great to hear some more opinions. When I go to conventions I listen to the "salesperson" and they always make their program sound great but since each child is different it can be hard to discern what is best for your child. And since this is my oldest, I have no experience to draw upon.

 

I am going to a small convention next weekend and should be able to look at the things I don't have.

 

My biggest concern with MUS is not that it is not as rigorous, but the idea of starting something so conceptual this late in the game. But I am going to still look at it.

 

So, I have a friend who did Pre-Algebra with CD(that is why I have it available) and then did Jacobs Algebra and she said she thinks she should have just skipped the CD and gone straight to Jacobs. Anyone else feel as if CD was too rigorous for Pre-Algebra?

 

And, finally regarding Saxon which has been the one I have been leaning toward(and more so after hearing Lori) was trying to teach it as we move forward. I really don't want to keeping this hopping around with Math.

 

Keep the advice coming! So Grateful:D

[mcconnellboys]

I think that doing a combo of Saxon and Videotext would give you more review. I've also heard that Videotext has more worksheets available online now for students who might need more review. Now, Saxon 1/2 is just pre-algebra and is very like their next lower level book (about 1/3 review of that level). So you might want to get the actual Algebra I book. Videotext does a little pre-algebra at the beginning of its first module, but then gets right into algebra work, as I recall (it's been a couple of years since my older son used it).

 

While Lial's and Jacob's are both excellent texts, I'm not certain how friendly they are to the "unmathy" - or to the teacher. I know nothing about Chalkdust, sorry.

[Beth in IN]

LoriM has a good point about developmental issues, and her advice has always worked for us. :D Everyone chooses, rejects, or changes curricula for a variety of reasons so I don't like to say any particular program is good or bad.

 

We never tried a combination of Saxon and VT, however we did switch to VT after having used Saxon through 87. I should add that we had a year's detour through Jacobs Algebra between the two which is a whole different story. One of the things about Saxon that was most helpful for my son was the constant review. There were times when he needed more practice on the lesson concepts, but for the most part we liked it.

 

 

 

 

Martha

 

Martha,

 

Would you elaborate on the year with Jacbos?

[Tullia]

Hi Beth,

 

With the benefit of hindsight informed by good advice from some of the folks who post here, I think that our problems with Jacobs were a combination of lack of readiness on my son's part and lack of memory on mine. It had been more than a few years since I'd opened an algebra book. :tongue_smilie:

 

Jacobs is an excellent text, and my son enjoyed it for the most part. However, when he hit a rough spot the lack of a detailed solutions manual made it difficult for me to help him. There were several lessons which gave both of us trouble, and I wasn't able to figure out the "big picture" from reading the text. Even though he did reasonably well on the daily work and tests it was clear by the end of the course that he had at best only a shaky, rote grasp of the work.

 

I think, too, that having a video component (as in someone other than mom explaining things) was something that my son needed at that time in his life.

 

Martha

[Beth in IN]

Thanks Martha! I can see the same things happening to us.

[Harrison_B]

Hi Beth,

 

One other option you might want to investigate is Math Without Borders for Algebra. The author uses the Foerster's textbook and he provides step by step instruction on a white board. I really like MUS and Jacob's, but what I'm seeing with my younger son is that he needs daily instruction. MUS provides weekly instructions and I'm seeing him confusing concepts. I would love for him to use Jacob's but I am horrible in explaining Algebra. Luckily my older son I haven't been a hindrance to him. He was able to read and figure out the problems, but I don't think I will be that lucky with my younger son. So next year, I'm going to switch my younger son to Foerster's Algebra. The textbook is very detail and it is step-by-step instruction. I'm sorry I threw out another option to you - :001_smile:

[Beth in IN]

Hi Beth,

 

One other option you might want to investigate is Math Without Borders for Algebra. The author uses the Foerster's textbook and he provides step by step instruction on a white board. I really like MUS and Jacob's, but what I'm seeing with my younger son is that he needs daily instruction. MUS provides weekly instructions and I'm seeing him confusing concepts. I would love for him to use Jacob's but I am horrible in explaining Algebra. Luckily my older son I haven't been a hindrance to him. He was able to read and figure out the problems, but I don't think I will be that lucky with my younger son. So next year, I'm going to switch my younger son to Foerster's Algebra. The textbook is very detail and it is step-by-step instruction. I'm sorry I threw out another option to you - :001_smile:

 

Terri,

 

No need to be sorry ... it is best to know everything that is out there. I actually just looked at it, and I kind of liked it(meaning as much as I can like anything to do with Algebra:)). I wonder how it would compare with Chalk Dust. I am thinking the Foerster text is better then Larson. CD is certainly more money...

 

Anyway, thanks Terri!

[amber in GA]

I have love, love, love, loved Video Text. I cannot praise it enough. My dd is not mathy, and she is going to hate whatever program we do--but at the end of module C, she is GETTING it! I have never really praised a math program before, but I love this one.