May I ask a few questions about CLE, Teach the Classics, Literary less Lord rings..

[Kisa in CA]

I LOVE literature. I checked out Teaching the Classics from the library and felt I missed my calling in life because I enjoyed it so much. We will be doing it next year in our co-op. Hopefully I will have funds to buy it soon. That will be once a week, but I want something scheduled for me for his daily work.

 

I need structure. Things at my house don't get done without a pre-made lesson plan. That's why I'm thinking about CLE or Lit. Lessons from Lord of the Rings. Which do you think would be best for 6th grade?

 

1. Keep doing CLE. We are doing CLE 5 reading this year and my son just hates it and does not do well with it. The vocabulary is just plain lousy IMHO because they do very little to help the child learn the words. But the other aspects are great. BUT he does terrible at answering the question. Either he doesn't read the question carefully enough, he misses the point of the question, or he goes a completely different direction than the curriculum is wanting him to go. Some of his answer seem WAY out there when I first read them, but when he tells me why he answered the way he did, it makes sense. He has always been like that; thinks outside the box. Yet, it's not the standard, correct answer. I want him to be strong in english and I want him to test well. That is so important to me because SAT's are what get you into college! We are always talking about how you take tests well, reading carefully and thoroughly, but it doesn't seem to translate in his work. FWIW - he does very well when we review books orally and thoroughly enjoyed doing TTC because we discussed it and diagrammed it on the board. But I strongly want him to learn to think clearly and write out his answers. His average test score with CLE is probably a C. He is almost finished with it.

 

or

 

2. Do Lit lesson from Lord of the Rings? Is Lord of the Rings too hard for a good 6th grade reader? We could do some of it together.

 

We have always used living books, so he hasn't done your standard reading program and I think that is part of the reason this is so hard for him. Any ideas on how to help him? Where have I failed him????

 

Thank you so much!

[Lori D.]

We are doing CLE 5 reading this year and my son just hates it and does not do well with it. The vocabulary is just plain lousy IMHO because they do very little to help the child learn the words. But the other aspects are great. BUT he does terrible at answering the question. Either he doesn't read the question carefully enough, he misses the point of the question, or he goes a completely different direction than the curriculum is wanting him to go. Some of his answer seem WAY out there when I first read them, but when he tells me why he answered the way he did, it makes sense. He has always been like that; thinks outside the box. Yet, it's not the standard, correct answer. I want him to be strong in english and I want him to test well. That is so important to me because SAT's are what get you into college! We are always talking about how you take tests well, reading carefully and thoroughly, but it doesn't seem to translate in his work. FWIW - he does very well when we review books orally and thoroughly enjoyed doing TTC because we discussed it and diagrammed it on the board. But I strongly want him to learn to think clearly and write out his answers. His average test score with CLE is probably a C.

 

 

Sounds like your son is in transition, moving from the grammar stage (memorization/gathering facts) to the logic stage (questioning/analyzing). And it sounds like he's doing well at it if he is able to verbally suppport his position with reasons/examples! :001_smile: Being able to write essays for the SAT is really a skill developed in the NEXT stage, the rhetoric stage (the high school years), so, while it's good to plan, we have to be carefully to not be expecting high school level work from a 5th grader. :001_smile:

 

The out of the box thinking is a real gift; we have one, too. Maybe I'm a rebel, but... instead of trying to get our "round peg" to fit into "square holes", we've instead tried to help him jump those "standard hoops" while maintaining his uniqueness in several ways:

 

- For learning to read carefully for test taking, we had him take standardized testing at the end of each year, and prepare with a test prep booklet for the month prior.

- To help him think through things logically and support his analyses, we've done a lot of logic (Dandylion Logic series of books and a wide variety of (and a large volume of) critical thinking puzzles in gr. 1-6; Thinking Toolbox and Fallacy Detective in gr. 7-8; and now DH is doing his old college Logic book with both boys in gr. 9-10).

- For writing, I make him do an outline for every paper to show me his main top and the specific examples/facts he will use to support it. Now in high school, we also do a weekly timed essay to start practicing for ACT/SAT testing; it is slowly, just beginning to help him think logically and to support his contention with specific examples.

- We're always discussing ads, movies, people's choices/consequences, political speeches, current events articles, etc., etc., to get both boys thinking, analyzing and talking about and defending their contentions.

 

 

 

We have always used living books, so he hasn't done your standard reading program and I think that is part of the reason this is so hard for him. Any ideas on how to help him? Where have I failed him????

 

 

It sure doesn't sound like you've failed him to me, Kisa! Rather, just the opposite! It sounds like you've helped him bloom into a good reader/thinker -- and those good readers/thinkers often do not flourish with a fill-in-the-blank, or an answer-the-question-a-certain-way type of program -- those types of programs are very limiting to someone who can see things in more than one way.:001_smile:

 

 

 

 

I need structure. Things at my house don't get done without a pre-made lesson plan. That's why I'm thinking about CLE or Lit. Lessons from Lord of the Rings. Which do you think would be best for 6th grade?

1. Keep doing CLE. He is almost finished with it. or

2. Do Lit lesson from Lord of the Rings? Is Lord of the Rings too hard for a good 6th grade reader? We could do some of it together.

 

 

Sounds like Teaching the Classics (TtC) has been a good fit for both you and your son. What about just sticking with it, and spending time this summer making your own lesson plan for the books you'd like to cover with him next year? Good literature guides can help provide background info and some questions or writing assignment ideas. And you can use some literary analysis resources (such as Figuratively Speaking; Story Elements for gr. 5/6 and for gr. 7/8; and Prose and Poetry (Walch Toolbox series)) for additional information and practice with literary terms. For example, Story Elements can be done out loud together 2 pages a week in less than a semester. Figuratively Speaking provides info and short exercises for 40 literary terms -- you can do just over 1 per week (taking 10-15 minutes per literary term) and finish in a school year.

 

 

Or, if you want to do something different, like Literary Lessons from Lord of the Rings (LLftLotR), then go for it! But I would not expect a 6th grader to be able to handle ANY lit. program -- even a very gentle one such as LLftLotR, or Lightning Literature & Composition -- on their own. Plus, I think what with your own love of literature, YOU would really enjoy doing such a program together with your son.

 

We did LLftLotR aloud together as a family -- did the reading of the books 2 nights a week out loud so we could all enjoy them, and then 2 days a week during school we read aloud/discussed together:

- the 12 additional units of material

- the notes for each chapter from the Lord of the Rings

- the discussion questions

 

We skipped the fill-in-the-blank vocabulary worksheets and quizzes -- rather, we learned the vocabulary out loud, in the moment, in context of reading -- which always makes the vocabulary stick better here, rather than formal worksheets at a later time. We also skipped the fill-in-the-blank comprehension questions because it was obvious whether the boys remembered what had happened or not from having read it aloud together.

 

 

FWIW, we did LLftLotR in between LL7 and LL8. In fact, maybe those could be a helpful trio of lit. programs to build from, along with doing other lit. with TtC:

 

gr. 6 = Lightning Lit. 7

gr. 7 = LLftLotR

gr. 8 = Lightning Lit. 8

 

 

Just a thought! BEST of luck, whatever you go with. Enjoy your literature journey with your family! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Penny]

Oh Please don't ruin Lord of the Rings by introducing it too early!! I know of dc in 8th grade who had to read it for school assignments and now they despise it. It is written for adults. It is marvelous, deep, and a true classic in the sense that every time one reads it, more truth can be gleaned from it. To read this to a child who is at best beginning logic stage might be the death sentence for a true masterpiece. If anything, wait until your child is too OLD for it. Now I have never seen LL for Lord of the Rings.

 

I read this somewhere around the age of 35. I only read it because my male co-workers described it like this:

 

"I wish that I hadn't read the book yet so that I could read it again for the very first time."

 

He was right on target. I was and could always be mesmerized by that world.

 

I don't want to ruin that first time with this book. We won't see the movie; my kids won't read an easy reader intro type book; my kids will just wait until they are mature enough.

[mamaof2andtwins]

Do you have him do the CLE reading independently? I have found that my 4th grader needs more support with her reading than the older children do. I would encourage you to do his reading with him.

 

Jennie

[MIch elle]

CLE reading workbooks are challenging! They teach the vocabulary by introducing them in the workbook, use them in the story and then have dc use them in sentences in the workbook. My ds looked up the voc. he didn't know in the list in the glossary at the back of the CLE reader or in a dictionary (most are in the glossary).

 

My 5th grader didn'tlike CLE reading either. It demanded too much from him that he did want to think about. I've learned that he is NOT a close reader. He misses important details and is too lazy to go back and re-read sections in the story to find the answer.

 

If you have a dc that doesn't do well with CLE reading then it's time to put it aside or do it with your dc. It's a demanding course and dc like easy reading and comprehension questions and that is NOT CLE reading.

 

My 6th grade has yet to start CLE reading 6. We put CLE reading aside. He's reading King Arthur which has short chapters, and he narrates back the story to me. It's amazing how some important details of the story are totally missed by him. He's getting better because he KNOWS that he will have to tell me back the story and I will not let him get away with not knowing those important details. We'll get back to CLE reading 6 this spring after my dc has better reading skills.

 

I continue to recommend CLE reading because it's an excellent course that demands critical thinking among other things.

 

HTH! :D

[Kisa in CA]

Thank you so much everyone! Lori, you brought tears to my eyes because you understand and offered me real suggestions. THANKS! I'm ordering Figuratively Speaking right away because it will be great for co-op too. Can you give me the author or publisher for Story Elements for gr. 5/6? I get so many hits on it that I am unsure to which one you are referring. I AM thinking too far ahead and fearing. This is my first child and that is a weakness of mine. Thanks to you all for reminding me that he is not quite in the next stage yet. We do go over all the vocabulary in CLE together and talk about every answer. But many times it is counter productive because I get frustrated with him. When we do things together orally I can't stop him from talking! He can't wait to join a debate team and I see such neat strengths in him. It's the writing and logic the scares me.

 

I'll wait on Lord of the Rings and look at either doing LL or scheduling out TTC for next year. Thanks so much for all your input because it helps me get things in perspective. I also need to get some logic for him. We haven't done much of that.

 

I have done the same thing as you Lori in having him practice for yearly test taking and then do standardized testing. I will continue to do that. Your idea about timed essay writing in high school is great. But I don't think I can make it that far! Junior High is such a stretch for me as it is!

 

Again, thanks everyone. You ladies are GREAT and truly a gift of God to me. I feel so much better.:001_smile: