Beginning dictation with older child

[Sara Umm Sakeena]

Greetings all,

I've homeschooled for others and tutored kids and now I'm helping a family member homeschool her 11 year old daughter. 

Her reading is a few grades behind, but that's not due to lack of intelligence. I've tested her, it's more due to her reluctance (mom says she's stubborn and I had one of those) bc reading takes time and effort when she'd rather be doing another activity, compounded by the fact of being in a large family where now, all the older ones that could help learn and teach together are out of the house. Her mom has also been working from home full time for years.

I want to start dictation bc she has a bright younger brother who loves to compete with her and they enjoy learning, being asked questions and summarizing. 

I've spent time with them and the Socratic method works best to stimulate their analytic and recall skills.

I've read the Kindle book, Know and Tell which I'm glad I bought, as it was instructional with many insights I agreed or indentified with. I can't think of a better way to end that sentence, lol grammar nazi here.

The 11 year old student is fully capable of making logical conclusions despite the reading delay so I wanted to ask what was your experience using dictation maybe with a delayed reader? Middle grade kids? Or best advice?

Is there anything you would avoid?

I've also read WWE and have one of the workbooks. 

I was thinking of having her and her brother dictate first from their favorite books, then from their favorite subjects.

For instance, there are lessons learned from historical figures, inventors or Prophets, and recounting (ok I realize summarizing is perhaps a subset skill of dictation) what they read or heard. 

Am I getting too far ahead of myself?

I appreciate any suggestions and sorry for the long question. Thanks!

 

 

[stlily]

I think dictation, as you're describing it here, is different from The Well-Trained Mind form of dictation. Dictation as you're describing sounds more like narration: the student reads or is read to, you ask a few comprehension questions, the student tells (orally) what they remember, in complete sentences; finally, the student writes down the sentence(s) they just told you or you write it down for them. Dictation as described in TWTM is as described below:

"[The student] needs to learn how to visualize a written sentence in his mind and then put it down on paper. From second grade on, rather than putting the written model in front of the student, you will dictate sentences to him. This will force him to bring his memory into play, to picture the sentence in his mind before writing it down. Eventually you'll be dictating two or three sentences at a time to a student, encouraging him to hold long and longer chunks of text in his mind as he writes." (Writing With Ease: Strong Fundamentals, p. 8-9)

The process is as follows:

"1) Tell the student that you will read the sentence slowly, twice. He should pay close attention so that he can remember the sentence and write it down.

2) Dictate the sentence twice.

3) After you have repeated the sentence the second time, encourage the student to repeat it back to you. 

4) After he  repeats it, tell him to write it down.

If the student forgets the last part of the sentence, you can read it to him again. However, first tell him to read out loud what he's already written, and see whether he can then say the rest of the sentence himself...If you do have to repeat the last part of the sentence out loud, ask the student to repeat the forgotten words back to you before he writes. You are helping the student develop the skill of active listening as he writes, which will be necessary when he does his own original work later."

This instructions are found in the writing curriculum Writing With Ease, Level 2. Hope you this helps.

Lily

P.S.

To clarify, the sentences you'll be dictating are ones you choose from their daily reading (literature, history, science, etc.)

[Sara Umm Sakeena]

Yes, thank you, you are right I was confusing narration with dictation. Thanka for taking the time to clarify that with references. I haven't read WWE in 10 years 😛 I was also sleep deprived!

For an older child beginning official narration, am I on the right track from what I described, though? 

Is there anything you or anyone recommends that particulary worked with their student, sparked their interest?

Edited February 28, 2021 by Sara Umm Sakeena

[PeterPan]

On 2/28/2021 at 7:38 AM, Sara Umm Sakeena said:

Her reading is a few grades behind

You might want to go ahead and teach the story grammar components explicitly. https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  

https://docs.google.com/document/d/155Jba91zgHW6V-nXt46sAg1utbsNd0C82yQwNwWsV48/edit  Here's a link to short videos (1-3 minutes each) you can use to teach through the close reading strategies from Notice and Note Fiction. You can then apply the skills to reading comprehension with picture books. https://pernillesripp.com/2015/11/15/great-picture-books-to-use-for-notice-and-note-all-signposts/  You can get all these books through your library and just read through them together, popcorn reading if you want. Don't be afraid to read aloud to her and to use picture books!! Picture books are great for comprehension and for targeting more complex skills.

https://www.timrasinski.com/resources.html  Consider doing word study to move forward her reading skills. https://www.teachercreatedmaterials.com/p/building-vocabulary-2nd-edition-level-4-student-guided-practice-book/100899/  This workbook series could make it easy. Rasinski has videos and webinars at the top of his resources page to show you *how* to implement the materials and why.

On 2/28/2021 at 5:00 PM, Sara Umm Sakeena said:

For an older child beginning official narration, am I on the right track from what I described, though? 

It's wasting intervention time to do random, nebulous narrations at that point. Go ahead and teach her the structures so she can move forward. Some kids with ADHD, dyslexia, ASD, etc. have narrative language deficits. If she does FINE with the narratives and can give a complete narrative, no problem! Then the charts at the first link (mindwing) show you how to extend the narratives she can do to expository writing. That way she's doing both narrative and expository writing at the level she's developmentally ready to do.