IEW for 5th before WWS

[annegables]

I had my 5th grader (avg reader - can read Harry Potter) and can write 1-3 paragraphs on topics of his choice, with a topic sentence, appropriate details, and a closing sentence (what we did all last year). However, after 2 years of WWE, he hates and is still awful at writing out a summary. He can orally summarize, but the histronics of getting that oral summary onto paper (even when I have written it for him!) is frustrating. I was going to start him on WWS half-speed, but there is no way he can do the reading and then summarize it without life ending. 

I am strongly considering getting IEW to give him lots of guidance on how exactly to write a summary. I would do IEW for 1-2 years and then go back to WWS. Thoughts? The cost is really my biggest impediment with just taking the plunge. Anyone been there, done that?

[8filltheheart]

I doubt you need IEW.  You can simply work on him creating key word outlines and either writing retells or learning how to write simple reports.  

[annegables]

5 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I doubt you need IEW.  You can simply work on him creating key word outlines and either writing retells or learning how to write simple reports.  

This is kind of what I am debating with myself. I have read an untold amt of books on how to teach writing and have a decent grasp of scope and sequence. And I got this reluctant writer from word-vomiting sentences to writing coherent, interesting paragraphs last year in 4th grade. 

[8filltheheart]

I am personally not a fan of IEW's methodology.  I would probably just come up with things for him to write about that he wants to write about.  Right now my 2 grandkids and my 5th grader are "publishing" a newspaper.  This week dd wrote an "article" about how misleading the tranquil pond is bc beneath the surface it is a battle of life and death (a pseudo report on the a pond's food web).  Grandson just finished Charlotte's Web and wrote and "article" on Spider Saves Pig.  Granddaughter is doing Treasured Conversations and wrote the Disappearance of Mouse Hill Solved!   They are creating ads, comic strips, etc. 

At that age I have also had them create "books" with chpts on things they are studying (chosen by them).  Solar system, archeology, palentology..... If he reads magazines like Muse, Cobblestone, or Faces, he could create his own magazine.  (They have free issues online.) 

[annegables]

45 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Fair warning- I haven't used WWS. But I would say for any reluctant writer in a situation like yours that IEW wouldn't be a bad bet and might bring back some enjoyment to the game. One of the highlights for me were the rubrics- they leave no room for misinterpretation or quibbling. I love the "it's either complete or incomplete." 

I get it on the investment as that is what had me hold off on IEW as long as I did. The investment on the TWSS and the SWI were like- wow. I already felt like we had laid out so much on SL (what little did I know of my future spending 😈) So I was lucky in that I found a drop-off homeschool class with an instructor experienced with IEW to try it out. Long haul, sure it cost more in the class, but I got to see the change in her writing and that then gave me the confidence to move into IEW on my own right because I saw the investment was worth it. Not to mention, they do stand behind their money back guarantee if you decide it's not, and that's nothing to sneeze at. 

My understanding with the newly revamped S&S is that the TWSS isn't as necessary (although I think it's a great program to strengthen teaching across the curriculum in its own right), so you could possibly save some by doing only the S&S. 

I will say my oldest dd is using some of what she learned from IEW to wheedle specifics out of vague professors these days. Now she knows what she needs to know to hit the points to make a prof happy on papers and speeches, and I'm not sure she would have that insight had it not been for IEW- to be so direct to ask for what they want, because honestly I don't even think some of them know what they want right now in this crazy time of having transitioned to all online and no IRL discussion...... She has yet to have a single prof who taught online before the pandemic so being online and using a whole different format has thrown them for a loop. She had one this summer who was incredibly vague but picky and I will give Mr. Pudewa credit for her being able to realize that is a horrible combination and she was going to have to figure out more specifics and pull them from the Prof to be able to pull the good grade. The kid that would never ask a question, as she thought it would make her look dumb in a classroom, finally learned through IEW that asking was better than flailing and guessing. 

In the YouTube videos on WWS iirc SWB does encourage switching to something like IEW at some point as a break for a year or two, so I think your plan is totally feasible from that direction as well. I can't remember which video it is, but I'm pretty sure it's one of these two as I watched them not too long ago while discussing writing options with a crisis schooling friend. My brain just can't remember which. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNs2ImH27E0&t=232s&ab_channel=Well-TrainedMind

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeRJs3BoXyQ&ab_channel=Well-TrainedMind

 

Thank you for your detailed reply! This was very helpful in helping me think through things. I have been listening to The Art of Language Podcast and I think I am going to try and implement some of the principles discussed (giving very specific assignments) with some of what we are doing already (with Killgallon, etc) to add sentence variety, while incorporating KWO on short Aesop's fables that I just got from the library (how fortuitous!) and see how Sept goes. With adding some rubrics for complete/incomplete. Also, I bought the book the TWSS is based off of (Building Structure and Style? - it hasn't come yet), so I will read that bc Webster goes into his checklist/rubric in the book. My big concern with IEW is that this kid really, really dislikes "random" writing assignments. He wants to write about what he is learning. Full stop. 

If this is a flop, then I will spend some money in Oct. Also, I had to laugh at the bolded. Oh, if only I knew how true that would be, says 4-years-ago me.

[annegables]

Just now, 8FillTheHeart said:

I am personally not a fan of IEW's methodology.  I would probably just come up with things for him to write about that he wants to write about.  Right now my 2 grandkids and my 5th grader are "publishing" a newspaper.  This week dd wrote an "article" about how misleading the tranquil pond is bc beneath the surface it is a battle of life and death (a pseudo report on the a pond's food web).  Grandson just finished Charlotte's Web and wrote and "article" on Spider Saves Pig.  Granddaughter is doing Treasured Conversations and wrote the Disappearance of Mouse Hill Solved!   They are creating ads, comic strips, etc. 

At that age I have also had them create "books" with chpts on things they are studying (chosen by them).  Solar system, archeology, palentology..... If he reads magazines like Muse, Cobblestone, or Faces, he could create his own magazine.  (They have free issues online.) 

My youngest is doing Treasured Conversations and he was very disappointed that the Bushy story was not longer😁. 

So, my wanting IEW is mainly just to try and fix the problem that he (my middle) hates writing a summary of something he read. "I don't know what it was talking about!!!!" He wails, after giving me an informal blow-by-blow account of what just happened. "I don't know how to start it!!!" "Don't help MEEEEEEE!!!" Don't even ask how WWE went. 

But he can write lots about things he does or other informational topics, like history. I get the feeling that IEW might be like trying to fix a small problem with a sledgehammer. 

[8filltheheart]

1 minute ago, annegables said:

My youngest is doing Treasured Conversations and he was very disappointed that the Bushy story was not longer😁. 

So, my wanting IEW is mainly just to try and fix the problem that he (my middle) hates writing a summary of something he read. "I don't know what it was talking about!!!!" He wails, after giving me an informal blow-by-blow account of what just happened. "I don't know how to start it!!!" "Don't help MEEEEEEE!!!" Don't even ask how WWE went. 

But he can write lots about things he does or other informational topics, like history. I get the feeling that IEW might be like trying to fix a small problem with a sledgehammer. 

You probably won't like my answer, but why does he need to write the summary of something he just read and why can't he just write about informational topics?  

Honestly, in 27 yrs of homeschooling, I have NEVER required my kids to write a summary of something they just read.  Never.  We discuss what they read, but I don't expect them to write it down.  When they are in 7th or 8th grade, they start taking notes from their reading but never as a writing assignment.  I do select writing assignments from the subjects they are studying.  (We just finished a pond study, hence dd's "article."  But 5th grade is about making writing something they are successful doing, not something they dread.  If you can get him to enjoy writing and with good output, you have won any "5th grade writing award" there is.

[annegables]

1 hour ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

You probably won't like my answer, but why does he need to write the summary of something he just read and why can't he just write about informational topics?  

Honestly, in 27 yrs of homeschooling, I have NEVER required my kids to write a summary of something they just read.  Never.  We discuss what they read, but I don't expect them to write it down.  When they are in 7th or 8th grade, they start taking notes from their reading but never as a writing assignment.  I do select writing assignments from the subjects they are studying.  (We just finished a pond study, hence dd's "article."  But 5th grade is about making writing something they are successful doing, not something they dread.  If you can get him to enjoy writing and with good output, you have won any "5th grade writing award" there is.

Au contraire to the bolded. Thank you for saying this. So, um, ah, that is not a writing requirement to be able to do a written summary of what one reads? 

This is possibly the most liberating post I have read in a while. I can just keep doing what I have been doing successfully with maybe some minor tweaks! Your voice is so helpful because you have seen the process through several times. I see a 5th grader and think, "AHHH, I have only 8 years to help him with writing before sending him off into the wide world!!"

[annegables]

I just got Blending Structure and Style in Composition (BSSC) by James Webster (a 300pg spiral bound book + instruction manual) that IEW TWSS is based off of, according to them. I have not seen IEW's stuff, so take this assessment with a grain of salt. This manual walks you through 9 units of teaching writing, with Unit 2 being all about their dress-ups. Throughout the manual, examples are given of how to systematically edit a student's writing. I found it helpful to have the instruction spelled out so thoroughly, with actual student examples at different levels and stages of writing. 

My thoughts (I am only up to Unit 3 in reading). The dress-ups are a lot of Killgallon techniques, just with the non-grammar names for the most part. But BSSC (and IEW, I assume) puts them all into a checklist of what should be included in writing. This is where some people chafe and where some people find IEW really helpful. A lot of the paragraph instruction I thought was similar to The Writing Revolution instruction, but again, BSSC got much more in the weeds with how to do it. With my kids, I do say things like, "put an appositive phrase here", or "change these three verbs to be stronger." I do like having different techniques for sentence variety all in one place.

I did find the ideas of how to extract key information and then re-write from that to be helpful. It seems like the half-step before the traditional Roman numeral outline as taught in WWS and adjusted for far lower reading levels as needed. It also teaches how to take an outline of 9 items and turning that into 2-3 separate paragraphs and then expanding it. This will probably be the most helpful for my "I don't know how to get out the information and write more than a sentence" child.

Another thing about grammar. James Webster began teaching in the 1940s in Canada, when it was apparently strongly frowned upon to teach actual grammar. So his method of sneaking in grammar without upsetting the administration was to introduce techniques without the names. Hence, "-ly words" and "who/which". 

Edited September 6, 2020 by annegables
fixed unit name