9yo just can't with CLE

[chilliepepper]

My youngest son has been using CLE (Math, Language Arts and Reading) pretty much from the beginning. I love its thoroughness and how it introduces concepts in very small increments. However, my son seems to be grinding to a halt with it. I was hoping that over the summer he might have matured enough to be able to handle it...but we started back today and it was the same ol' same ol'. Dread, resistance, moaning and groaning, wandering off, spacing out...just can't get. through. it. 

I think maybe the Language Arts and Reading are moving too slow. He seems to naturally know most of the concepts as he encounters them, so maybe the work is just too boring. However, I just looked over the placement test and based on what I think he knows, he seems to be in the right grade level. Do we need a different curriculum?

With math, I honestly wonder if he is...um...impaired in some way. He doesn't understand or remember many of the concepts. As a 9 year old he's only in the 200 series and just isn't picking things up. Thus far, I have presented the concepts according to the Teacher Guide. I'm not just turning him loose and expecting him to get it.

I'm open to changing curricula, but need something not very teacher-intensive because my older two continue to consume way too much of my time. Should I get a tutor? Switch to an online program?

Edited September 4, 2020 by chilliepepper

[chilliepepper]

7 minutes ago, OKBud said:

"You could even stick with an independent-y workbook program and still mix things up quite a bit! Cottage Press (probably Primer 2 series), LLATL, Winning With Writing/Growing With grammar, Jump In writing, CAP Writing and Rhetoric, Write From History, Essentials in English...there are options. And once you get used to it, sometimes doing less workbook-y things is more efficient that you'd think too."

For some reason my responses aren't set apart from your quotes in the normal way. I don't come to these forums often so I don't really know what I'm doing. LOL. Anyway...

So to make sure I understand...are the titles that you listed examples of independent-y workbook-y things? And would this (independent-y workbook-y) be in contrast of CLE? Because I think of it as pretty workbook-y. Maybe not so independent, although once the new concept is taught, the student can (or at least should be able to) go do the lesson independently.

"What have you done with your older kids that you've liked?"

Well...it's been quite a hodgepodge. My oldest kid was 9 when we started homeschooling and we did Classical Conversations so he jumped right in with their Essentials program after having gotten (presumably) some basic phonics/sight reading in PS. Got a fairly comprehensive grasp of English grammar (their "Essentials of the English Language" is similar to Shurley Grammar in its approach) and IEW writing. Ended up with some gaps in what I think is called mechanics, but I think he'll do ok.

DS2 did a mix of stuff for the first couple of years and honestly it's all such a blur that I can't even remember. I think he might have been raised by wolves during that time. He also did CC Essentials when he hit 4th grade, so has similar strengths and gaps to the first guy.

Can't wholeheartedly say we've liked anything. I mean...I do think the CC Essentials grammar was solid, and IEW is IEW. They didn't love it though.

 

7 minutes ago, OKBud said:

What's your gut feeling here?  When you are doing the teaching, does he seem to understand? Can he answer and explain things aloud, but then struggle to get through the written work? Or, when you are doing the lesson together, does he not understand there in the moment?  

 

Gut feeling with math is that he understands somewhat. It's like he'll have a moment of getting that when you have to subtract a bigger number from a smaller number in the ones column, you go get a ten from the tens column and put it in the ones, resulting in one less ten in the tens. He gets it, but yeah I guess I would say struggles with the written work. All in all, I think he gets most things when I initially explain them but then they leave him pretty quickly and the "work" for each chapter is overwhelming.

Oh and I should mention that he can NOT remember multiplication facts to save his life. He's been in CC, where they recite (skip count) all of the multiplication tables up to 15 starting when they are 4 years old (obviously very few 4yos can do that from memory, though I do know a couple of kids who could do it at age 5). I'm not saying I think that is a great idea, but my point is that many of his peers could do this (all the way up to 15s) by the time they were 6 or 7 and my kid still struggles with skip counting by 2s and 3s. Even when it's put to music---which I find to be magical when it comes to memorizing stuff---he still stumbles with the TWOS AND THREES multiplication tables. He has them mostly down but is not fluent. This concerns me. Why can't he get that?

[chilliepepper]

16 minutes ago, mshanson3121 said:

 

So DH and I were just discussing CLE last night. To quote him, "Well if you want to make a kid hate writing and grammar, CLE sure is the way to do it." So... take that for what you will, LOL. My guess is yes, a different curriculum. Also remember that back in the golden age of education (18th/19th century when grammar was at it's peak) grammar was never taught until students were older - the equivalent of middle school today. The early years were focused on math, spelling and reading. Then they did a couple intensive years of grammar when students were older and actually had need of grammar (when they were starting to write compositions etc...). So, maybe let that take some pressure off. Maybe just focus on spelling and reading for now, and shelve grammar for a year or two to give him a break?   I don't know that many 9 year olds have need of diagramming 😉. Or, by all means, try something different.

Well, yeah...

In its defense, CLE isn't doing a ton of grammar yet. It's mostly phonics and spelling. It's beginning to introduce parts of speech and sentence structure (at a very basic level like the noun is usually what the sentence is about, and the verb tells what the noun is doing), but very gently and with no diagramming as of yet.

[chilliepepper]

19 minutes ago, mshanson3121 said:

Now, my caveat to all of this is: if this is a consistent problem, as in he struggles each time a new concept comes up, then you might want to consider switching to a mastery based program, which gives students more time to learn the topic. Instead of introducing the topic with 2 or three questions and then moving on to something else new the next day, thus requiring that mastery only come through long term review, a mastery program will focus on the same topic for a week or two, to make sure the students have truly mastered it before moving on. Not all kids thrive using a spiral method. My son always found it overwhelming to have so many "new" things at once. However, again, if it's just one or two things he's struggling with, stick with it.

Yeah, I've been wondering if he needs to switch to mastery. What are some of your favorite mastery programs? My older two did Math Mammoth for the first year or two. They kind of hated it...but I know some kids like it. I probably still have those files somewhere on my computer so I could try it, but are there others that you would recommend?

[chilliepepper]

1 hour ago, mshanson3121 said:

 

Oh there'll be plenty of grammar and diagramming by the end of level 200, trust me. We've used CLE up through 500s.

Fair 'nuff. LOL. I did get a hint of that looking over the placement test.

[chilliepepper]

4 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I'm not sure why, because it's totally correct and a good explanation. 

 

It sounds like there's a place value issue here, if this is what he's struggling with. It's NOT the same thing as just taking away with 1s. 

 

I agree with you that evaluations would be a good idea. 

@chilliepepper, how exactly is he doing the 2s and 3s times tables? What is his understanding of multiplication? 

 

2s and 3s...well, where he's at in CLE right now, he's just started 2s and I think he understands that 6x2 is six groups of two or two groups of six. His brain probably goes to two groups of six, and he's pretty good at knowing what the double of a number is.

CLE hasn't hit 3s yet, but in CC they do the skip counting and they have a song for every table. So he sorta kinda knows the 3s with the song, but I don't think he's completely fluent whereas the other kids his age have been 100% fluent for two or three years now. Not that he has to be like the other kids but it does make me wonder. It's the same with all of the memory work they do. He's lagging behind his peers with memory work by about 3 years.

[chilliepepper]

8 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I'm not sure why, because it's totally correct and a good explanation. 

 

Thanks for the affirmation. 🙂 It's obviously not exactly how I would explain it to him (with him I would be showing him with pictures and/or manipulatives), but it's the gist.

[chilliepepper]

2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

It absolutely sounds like this is not how his brain works. That's why I think evals are a good idea. 

 

Which "this" are you referring to that is not how his brain works? Skip counting or knowing the double of a number?

[chilliepepper]

3 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Honestly CC is out of context memory at rocket pace (btdt). He may need something hands on to be able to internalize it. 

 

Yeah I get that and certainly don't see it as the end all be all. And---I deliberately don't emphasize the skip counting, because I'm mostly convinced that it harms more than helps---but at the same time, you would think that after five years of skip counting with songs, he would have at least internalized the lower number tables just by the repetition of hearing it over and over with his class every Tuesday.

[chilliepepper]

4 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I'd go with your gut here. If everyone else is retaining it and he isn't, something is up, and I'd get him evaluated just to figure out what it is. In the meantime, though, I'd teach him differently. 

 

Sounds like a good plan. Fortunately I recently had my older kid evaluated and really liked the person who did it, so maybe it's time to go another round with her. 🙂 She might even be on these boards. LOL

[chilliepepper]

Just now, OKBud said:

Not if there's some issue creating a block between him and the material OR not if he literally could not care less. Some people get stuff stuck in their heads whether they want to or not... some people have well-manned and well-maintained mental bulwarks against what feels like nonsense 🙂 

 

 

That's true. The weird thing is that there are things that are completely, absolutely, 100% useless and sometimes nonsensical that he will naturally put to a song or rhythm and repeat over and over much to the annoyance of his family. 🤷‍♀️

[chilliepepper]

Does anyone here know how to download a thread from this forum or format it for efficient pasting into an email? I was thinking of sending this convo to the evaluator as a place to start.

Edited September 4, 2020 by chilliepepper

[chilliepepper]

2 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

If you already have someone and are cool with the eval I would see no reason not to do it, however knowing that a thorough eval is thousands and that CC and CLE have been the totality.of his math experience, I don't think you would exactly be shooting yourself in the foot by making a clean break to another, mastery, manipulative based program. Because at the end of the day, eval or no, you are still going to end up with one of those programs. 

 

True. Yeah I was thinking "oh crap I have to buy another curriculum." I guess that's a lot cheaper than an evaluation, ha! That being said...there might be a number of reasons to have him evaluated anyway, AND it's a different money pot so I'm still going to consider it.

[chilliepepper]

6 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Just paste the link from the little sideways V thing on the right corner. 

 

...and just send the person the link? And I guess she'll be able to view the thread even if she's not a member here (which I think she likely is)?

[chilliepepper]

2 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

The biggest problem I have when copying and pasting is it tends to blow the formatting. 

 

Same.

[chilliepepper]

52 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Yeah, which sometimes freaks me out, lol. Someday, someone will find everything I've said about them on here... 

 

Someday our kids will be reading about themselves here.

[Terabith]

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and say there's an issue.  My youngest has a lot of issues with both memory and with math.  We struggled hard.  Her working memory is almost six standard deviations lower than her IQ....it's into the actual impaired category.  She has to use a song to spell her whole first name (9 letters) and can rarely remember her birthday.  And she had her skip counting songs down by her second year of CC.  (In fact, at 15, while she understands and can calculate based on the distributive property, in practice she uses the skip counting songs pretty much every day.)  

CLE was kind of a bust for her, although she didn't have any issues with place value.  I'm going to vote for evaluations and Ronit Bird.