Outlining Question

[SkiMom]

My 11 year old ds is doing some outlining in history this year and he is running into a problem. He is struggling to find the main idea in the paragraphs he is outlining. He has worked through R&S to teach him outlining, plus some of the Remedia Outlining books. I have found that the paragraphs in those books are very simple, and have the topic sentence clearly defined as the first sentence of the paragraph. In "real" books it isn't quite so neat. He is having trouble in this area...and quite frankly, so am I. Sometimes I can't even tell what the main idea of the paragraph is because there is so much information in it. Any ideas? TIA!

[Rhondabee]

This will probably help *you* more than your ds, but...

 

What helped/helps me sometimes is to find the "details" that seem to be elaborating on the same idea, and then ask, "What is that idea?" *That* is the main idea of the paragraph, even if the paragraph doesn't explicitly state that idea. Sometimes the main idea is implied, sometimes it is used as the last sentence in the previous paragraph (as a transition), and sometimes it is used as the first sentence in the next paragraph (as a transition).

 

I also am constantly asking my 5th grader, "What do you think is the most important idea of this paragraph?" and try to get away from, "What is the topic sentence?" because you really *want* the outline to be in his own words. And then, even though we aren't writing down the sub-points yet, I'll talk him through them if we have time.

 

If you can find what will one day become the sub-points, that will help you not feel guilty about not including that info on your outline. When I look back at my oldest's outlines from 5th grade, I realize I often pushed him to summarize the info into one sentence, thinking that info was oh-so-important - (groan!) I guess the trade-off is that the summaries we're doing in R&S 8th will be easier - LOL!

 

hth a bit

Rhonda

[JaneNickerson]

I'm wondering what history spine you are using to outline.

Ds12 has Kingfisher History Encyclopedia and I find outlining difficult.

[Firefly]

We are using Kingfisher and are also finding it very difficult to outline. DS (10, soon to be 11) is new to outlining and I wish we could have found something a little easier to break him into it. So I, too, would love to hear of other history spines people are using or how to make the process less painful!

[TerriMI]

I think the problem might be that real writers don't write paragraphs using the model that you are learning.

 

You might try practicing the skill of precising the articles first. This is strict practice in finding the main idea of a paragraph. Do you know about it?

[Colleen in NS]

What helped/helps me sometimes is to find the "details" that seem to be elaborating on the same idea, and then ask, "What is that idea?" *That* is the main idea of the paragraph, even if the paragraph doesn't explicitly state that idea.

 

If you can find what will one day become the sub-points

 

Rhonda, this really helps me, too! Like the OP, I've been wondering how to help ds with this, too (although he's working through part of WWE first right now due to some gaps - but I want to get back to main idea outlining right after WWE, but couldn't really figure out how to do it on "real life" writing like the OP talked about). Last week I was looking at the R&S outlining lessons, trying to figure out why they have 2 level outlining going on, and then it dawned on me that maybe it was to demonstrate exactly what you were talking about - noticing the details so that you can figure out a main idea. IOW, it was *showing* how to do it, instead of making you guess. I was trying to help ds guess before at the main idea, and kept getting stuck. That "finding the details first" information is very helpful to me.

 

I'm wondering what history spine you are using to outline.

Ds12 has Kingfisher History Encyclopedia and I find outlining difficult.

 

Hi Jane, we quit using KF very quickly because it's difficult to outline - it compresses a lot of info. into its paragraphs, and the paragraphs don't really have one main idea. We use KF as our spine (to get timeline dates and further topics to read about). We use SOTW, supplemental library books, and World Book encyclopedia articles to practice outlining.

 

I think the problem might be that real writers don't write paragraphs using the model that you are learning.

 

You might try practicing the skill of precising the articles first. This is strict practice in finding the main idea of a paragraph. Do you know about it?

 

I'd love to hear more about this.

[TerriMI]

I'd love to hear more about this.

 

 

Read about what a precis is here at the article and related lnks at Wikipedia:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pr%C3%A9cis

 

and here at PA college:

 

http://lonestar.texas.net/~mseifert/precis1302.html

 

you might even try this one:

 

http://startup.curtin.edu.au/study/writing/precis.cfm#note

 

 

Then to translate that into a project for you and kids to work on, you might try using the simple explanation that I used with my dc. I told them to read the first paragraph in the article and tell me what THING that paragraph is about. That THING becomes the subject noun of the precis sentence for that paragraph. Then I asked them to tell me WHAT THE PARAGRAPH SAYS ABOUT that THING. The answers become the predicate of the precis sentence for that paragraph. So then each paragraph of the article has one sentence that is made about it. You can either list these sentences or you can arrange them into a paragraph, smoothing and transitioning the writing as you go.

 

This strategy worked well with my dc because we had already done so much grammar, that they understood all the terms well. You may have to help them put the predicate especially into their own words. Our previous work with Key Word Outlines ala IEW really prepared my dc well for that so that even that was a breeze.

[SkiMom]

Thank you all for your helpful comments!

 

Jane: We are using the Kids Book of Canadian History, which most people here probably aren't familiar with. It is the closest thing to KHE that I could find that covers Canadian history (which is what we are studying this year). I should try to have him outline from some other book to see if he still has the same struggle.

 

Colleen: Which level of R&S are you using? Maybe we haven't got to that teaching yet, or need to review.

 

TerriKY: I like these questions. I will try using this with my ds to see if it can help him.

[Colleen in NS]

Jane: We are using the Kids Book of Canadian History, which most people here probably aren't familiar with.

 

Colleen: Which level of R&S are you using? Maybe we haven't got to that teaching yet, or need to review.

 

I love the Kids Book of Canadian History! We've had it out from the library several times.

 

We're using R&S 5. It has at least 2 outlining lessons in it, plus some outlining review. I'll bet there are outlining lessons in level 6.

 

TerriKY, thanks for the precis explanation.

[Rhondabee]

I'm wondering what history spine you are using to outline.

Ds12 has Kingfisher History Encyclopedia and I find outlining difficult.

 

if you want to use the KHE, it *usually* has the same info in it. However, they have added extra information that used to be in a side-bar timeline. So, you will have to pre-read to do this, but you (as the parent) can usually tell when the KHE devolves into sentences which are merely dates and events. Just cross them out.

 

My kids do not work very independently, yet, so if I were doing it, I would just read the KHE with them, and when those sentences come up, point out how they mar the flow of the underlying essay, then cross them out. (My 8th grader could probably handle me crossing them out ahead of time, but I think my 5th grader would be so confused, history would be over for the day!)

 

Or, honestly, SWB's newest recs regarding the KHE is to use it to take notes, not to outline. Then, write down every date in your timeline. Then, *IF* the dc wants to read further, outline from another book (a 3-5 paragraph section!!! Not the whole book or chapter!). Or, do a primary source that week.

 

Even if you do just "take notes", it would seem that listing the main idea and the supporting details would be a part of that. You just really have to become okay with leaving things out. (fwiw, I'm working *really*, *really* hard on this one!!!!)

 

hth,

Rhonda