Help! BJU math is NOT working...suggestions?

[partyof5]

My 5th grade dd has used Right Start math since grade 1. We loved it. We went all the way through Levels B thru E.

 

Now we use the RS geometry program but I decided to use it slowly over a 2 year period so that I could intersperse more traditional math in there as well, in a 2 weeks Geometry/2 weeks BJU math pattern. The purpose of this was to not lose all her mathematics skills while we spent a year on a more focused program of Geometry. Well...dd loves the Geometry and hates the BJU--too slow and repetitive so far, and it's the grade 6 program. She does like the very independent nature of RS Geometry and this is exciting after our many years of very teacher-intensive RS instruction.

 

I still want to use Geometry over two years but we need a new math program to weave in alongside it. I'm looking for something that will keep her multiplication/division/fractions type of skills up to par while not boring her to tears. I'd also love a program that dd can do fairly independently if possible.

 

If this makes sense and you have some suggestions for programs that would piggyback nicely on our years with RS math, I would love your input.

 

Thanks!!

[PeterPan]

Have you tried giving her the chapter tests for those early chapters that are all review/repetition and letting her test out of them? Are you making her do too much of the work in the student text? Have you gotten the Spring or Stretch books? Spring Into Action makes good "homework" and could sub for the work in the book. It's a workbook, so she wouldn't have to write so much out. The Stretch Your Mind book is way cool and provides challenging application problems and out of the box thinking scenarios for the concept of the day. Spring is only one side (at least for the level I have) and Stretch is only one side, so if she did those two, it wouldn't be too much. My dd really enjoys the Stretch pages.

 

How is your dd liking the RS G? I have it and have told my dd I'd let her start doing it at some point in January. I just haven't figured out how to balance it out with our BJU math. I assumed I would lighten the load and do both, or maybe day 4 days BJU, 1 day RS G. I don't know. Hadn't thought of the two week cycles for each. Seems to me that sets up a real contrast. OF COURSE the RS G is way more fun than the BJU6. That doesn't mean the repetition or work she's doing in BJU is bad for her or unnecessary. (more practice, more proficiency) So maybe just rearranging how you schedule the two, so it's not such a terrible contrast, would help. Like I said though, I don't know what I'm going to do to balance them. You know, there's not a Stretch page for every single lesson, so what might work is to do a RS G page on the days when there's no Stretch. That way there's always something fun. I don't know, just tossing that out. I haven't counted it out to know how many lessons for a particular grade don't have corresponding Stretch pages. It's at least 1/3 though, I'm thinking.

[partyof5]

Elizabeth,

Thanks for replying...you offer some good ideas, and one big DUH! moment for me. :tongue_smilie: Of course I should just test her out of the first chapter or two! Why is this so hard when I offer this advice to others all the time?! (sigh)

 

I went for the 2 week plan because I was afraid that doing less than that would eliminate any hope of momentum or consistency in either program.

 

I have a curriculum "disease" of sorts in which I have a hard time not using all components of a curriculum, which in the case of BJU, I am killing my dd with too much boring work. RS seemed to have such a nice appropriate amount, it's strange to me to have to have her do just half or skip most, or do nearly none of a student text or work book page.

 

I have the whole kit and caboodle--the student text, workbook pages (in a pad?), and I believe I have the Spring into Action book. it's all just too much, so I often assign just 3-5 problems in the student text, a couple in the spring book, none of the workbook pad, and I feel that the joy is already gone and it's not October yet!

 

SO, I will test her out and see if we can get to some more meaty material. Makes perfect sense. Then, I'll keep with my reduction of written work as I have been, assigning half or less of the problems, or maybe only spring pages instead of both spring AND student text. I think I'll stick with the 2 week plan for now, possibly reducing to 1 week, but any less won't work for my dd who needs to get in a groove in order to be productive. Daily swapping would drive her mad.

 

Thanks for helping me think through this. I do appreciate it. I hate to throw things out without at least giving them a sensible try.

[PeterPan]

I haven't seen the 6th grade. Is Spring for 6th grade still 1 side, or is it 2? (just curious) You could skip the student text problems entirely, do Spring (maybe in entirety if it's not too long alone?) and then do the Stretch Your Mind pages. You should check them out. They're way cool, way fun. My dd really, really likes them. It's very RS-ish, if that makes sense. You might be able to see samples on Rainbow.

 

And no, that's not shocking that I would say the same thing you've told others, lol. We all need to be reminded of things at times! Sometimes we just get so into it, we can't see what's obvious to someone on the outside. :)

 

Oh, how long are the RS G pages taking her? Guess it wouldn't be possible to do both BJU and RS G in one day? And if you broke the RS G lesson into two days, that would make it disjointed or take longer too probably? Honestly, I'd almost give the sessions LONGER than 2 weeks, rather than shorter. LIke if you cycled 4 weeks, you'd really be in your groove, go through 2 or 3 chapters of the BJU, then go to RS. I don't know, just thinking aloud here. I don't have a clue what I'll do. I'm in the overkill camp too. :)

[HiddenJewel]

Here is the question I asked RS with their response:

 

Is this program like a pre-geometry program or does it reinforce all the math skills that were learned in elementary but in a hands on way?

 

Thanks.

RightStart Mathematics; A Hands-On Geometric Approach will use the math that the children learned earlier, addition, subtraction, multiplication, division and fractions, and apply in real world using the drawing tools. For a simple example, they will draw a rectangle, then figure out the area and perimeter of it. Most manuals will just give kids formula and have them apply it in a variety of situations. Our method brings their work to a meaningful level. Frequently we will show where an activity is used in the world - many pictures are included from around the world.

 

So, the basic purpose is to reinforce and apply the math skills. However, because of the format of geometry, this is a wonderful pre-geometry course.

 

Kathleen

 

 

So I would think that just the RS program would reinforce the skills already learned.

 

If you do want something extra but don't want to continue trying to do another complete math program, Math Mammoth has some wonderful supplemental worksheets. The worksheets go all the way through algebra. You can see plenty of samples on the website. The worksheets themselves are very inexpensive.

[partyof5]

Hidden Jewel,

Thanks for sharing your question & answer with RS. I hadn't heard it quite like that from them. Somewhere along the way, I thought we were advised to supplement, but honestly, I don't know where that came from now. :001_huh:

 

I think that doing geometry exclusively is something I will consider as we try out some new things these next couple of weeks. I'll look at the other program you mentioned as well.

 

Thanks for replying!

[partyof5]

Elizabeth,

The Spring pages are 2 sided, but only one page per lesson, if that's what you mean. They are VERY repetitive and much like the student text, so one or the other would be sufficient.

 

One geometry lesson is enough work for one day in some cases, especialy since we're still in the early lessons and it's not too challenging yet. But with lining up her paper on the board and getting materials and writing some definitions, I think any more than one lesson would be too much.

 

Again, I sincerely appreciate you thinking through this with me. Just putting it all out in words is a good exercise for me... I should do this more often!

[PeterPan]

RS is trying to re-spin how they market the RS G. You'll notice they've even renamed it to reflect this. Way back when Dr. Cotter started writing RS G, her vision for the middle school level was to alternate 3 books (fractions, prealgebra, geometry). She's only gotten the geometry written, so that leaves you with trying to figure out how to implement it, how to keep the other things fresh and moving forward. And you need more with fractions and whatnot than what you've done in RS E to be ready for pre-algebra.

[partyof5]

This might explain why I think I saw a recommendation from RS for another math program alongside geometry?? I'm sure it wasn't BJU but I can't quickly find it or even remember what it was...maybe it's in a former thread here.

 

Do you know if the other middle school level books are being written at all?

[partyof5]

FOUND IT!

Just did a search and found a post by you about Primary Challenge Math by Zaccaro?? Have you ever used this or looked at it carefully? And if so, how does it compare to BJU?

 

I know you're past due and probably not in the mood for the RS Inquisition!

[PeterPan]

I just went to RR and took a look at the samples for Spring 6. That shouldn't take her more than 20 minutes, I would think. I haven't looked through the RS G yet enough to be opinionated, but do you think there are elements you could toss from it? For instance, writing defs isn't essential. You're talking a 10 yo, not high school. She's going to see all this material again. And you said lining up the paper with the board and whatnot was taking a long time, so I'd toss that. We spend 40 minutes a day on math, and your dc, being a bit older, probably spends a bit more, say 45. That's too short a time to lose part of it to anything inconsequential. If you tape her white board to the table straight and firmly, then it will always be in place and all lined up and ready to put the paper on and just go. Or contrive another way. Or cut corners and don't worry about being perfect and do it without having it taped perfectly. Or?

 

I don't know, but you see what I'm saying? I'll have to go look at G and see for myself, but I like the continuity of daily computation. Spring 6 isn't too much work. There's no spiral review in Spring at all, so once she gets out of those early chapters, it's all just plowing forward. And if it's easy, just go faster, kwim? Those pages shouldn't take more than 15-20 minutes, and that would leave her 30 minutes to do a RS G page. Don't know if it could be squeezed into that? I know my dd doesn't care if math takes longer when it's something she likes, lol. She only cares if it's something she DOESN'T like, hehe.

 

The RS lessons are shorter, so it was a real jolt when my dd went to BJU and had to start doing more written work. I'll tell you though, it's been really good for her. I've become of the "do it anyway" camp. But I'm not mean about it. I'm making sure she gets pages she likes along with the brocolli stuff she has to do just because. ;)

[Melissa in CA]

Just wanted to add that just recently I purchased the 6th BJU Spring into Action book, and the 5th grade Stretch Your Mind book to go along with our BJU 6th grade math. My son loves them. We no longer do the problems out of the main text, instead he does the corresponding Spring page, and then one Stretch page a day. He is really enjoying this combo, and I have noticed that math is getting done much earlier in the day now...whereas before he would save it for last. ;)

 

Also, Christianbook.com has much better samples of these books than Rainbow Resource.

[partyof5]

Thanks for sharing this idea. I believe I own the grade 5 "stretch" book, given by a friend.

 

Hmmm...options, options.

[PeterPan]

There are two Zaccaro books: Primary Challenge Math and the regular Challenge Math. I have Primary Challenge Math, and it's well... I don't know. DD didn't love it. It's divided by topics and has three levels of problem-solving scenarios within the topics. They weren't very out of the box, just more a way of leading the capable student into doing or intuiting higher level concepts. The BJU Stretch pages are more fun for her, as they're creative, involve interesting scenarios, and are way out of the box.

 

To me, now that I've done quite a bit (2 levels) of the BJU math, I really respect how careful it is to build understanding of each and every concept, proficiency through plenty of practice, and a solid foundation to move forward. I really got bit by the amount of practice in RS, because my dd flat needed more, which isn't unusual. In fact, that was one of the questions I had, whether you had considered that complaining about it being slow or boring or whatever could actually be that your dd isn't fast enough at the concepts and needs to do them more? Obviously I don't know your situation, and I'm not meaning to pry. I'm just tossing that out, that sometimes what kids say isn't actually what's happening. If she's so proficient, she ought to be FLYING through that Spring book and it shouldn't be tedious or slow at all! I have my dd doing multiple pages of Spring and Stretch (both) daily right now. It took us a long time to get into our groove and get that level right, get her skills faster, and get her used to doing more work. I would suggest not ditching the BJU so quickly. Changing math isn't fun, and the issues might not be the way you're initially perceiving them. I know I only figured it out when someone from here took me aside and gave me a good whomp on the head, pointing out that my dd's complaining about it being slow or boring was actually a sign that she needed to do MORE of it, not less. Like I said, if she's so proficient, she ought to be flying through those pages and not find them tedious or troublesome at all! How fast can you do them? Use that as a baseline for full proficiency and really think about how long it's taking her. If she's saying it's slow, it might not be the curriculum but HER.

 

Again, not trying to butt in, just tossing that out. Changing math isn't fun, and I wouldn't ditch something good so quickly. I wouldn't buy Zaccaro right now either, because it's just one more thing to distract you and feel compelled to put into your day, haha. Let her finish the "too easy" BJU 6 Spring book as fast as she wants, then go to RS G alternated with Zaccaro. I just think it's important to finish what you start. And I'd have her do BJU6 Stretch along with Spring. Pick a sensible amount, if it's easy/review. Two pages each from Spring and Stretch shouldn't take her more than 45 minutes to an hour (a very age-appropriate amount) if it's review and coming easily for her. She'll enjoy the Stretch pages, maybe even find them challenging, and doing Spring straight through will build a good foundation. Then when she finishes that, THEN by Zaccaro. Finish what you've started. But like I said, I'm a stickler on those things. But I've learned the hard way? :)

[PeterPan]

BTW, I don't think it's enough to be able to just do the math, not with an advanced or capable student. I think if a student is advanced, they ought to be doing that Stretch book and do those more challenging application problems, the ones that require more synthesis, more pulling skills together, more thinking. Just seems that way to me. In other words, I wouldn't consider a level completed until she has done the Stretch book for it, not when it's supposed to be an advanced or extra-capable dc.

[partyof5]

Elizabeth,

I understand what you are suggesting and I definitely need to take this into consideration. I suspect that it may be what you are saying--that she is unable to move faster from lack of intensive practive these recent years, and not just that it's boring. This is a hard realization, as we really love RS and saw a lot of growth in skills & understanding. (I'm not loving the fact that it didn't provide "enough" of something...especially since I have 2 more dd's coming up through it.) She doesn't love math though she has succeeded with minimal trouble all these years, which makes this crossroads we're at all the more frustrating. I'm torn between not wanting to frustrate her further and pushing her through a wall that needs to be pushed through, if that is indeed the reality we are facing! :)

 

I looked at the chapter tests as you suggested and looking ahead, I think we are in for some more challenging work in the future, though I may test her out of the first chapter, and possibly the 2nd.

 

Meanwhile, I spent some time online looking at the Stretch book for grade 6. I can see why you would like it and require it in addition to Spring. I expected them to be more duplicates of each other than they are. For $12, this may just the right thing. I agree that 45 minutes or so is more than reasonable for this age in math.

 

Big sigh as I prepare to tackle some new realities. Ugh. Luckily for her, dd is out today at a state fair with my parents, so I won't go experiment with her immediately! Tomorrow will be a new day and I think that trying to work through the pages faster is a great way to assess ability vs. attitude.

 

Grateful for the "whomp" on the head,:smash:

[PeterPan]

I'm going to be blunt. If your dd is feeling these things already in book 6, I would move her back to book 5. I'd rather see her do Spring 5 and Stretch 5 and ENJOY it and start to feel good about math (which is what will happen!), and THEN go into BJU6, rather than plugging through BJU6 and feeling unhappy. I'm telling you it took us a year, a whole YEAR to get to where my dd is now happy with her math, enjoys it, and feels good about it. I hope I'm not reading into your situation incorrectly. Or maybe I hope that I am? Those first 3 chapters or so should not only be review, but they should be so easy and natural for her that she flies through them. If she's not, I wouldn't even consider moving forward. Get the BJU5, Spring 5, and Stretch 5. Are her facts fast? Get a flashmaster or the abeka drill pages or calculadders or whatever you prefer and use them a lot. And I hate to say it, but if that's the case, I'd put aside RS G for a while. I'm not saying it's not cool, but I wouldn't do it if you're in the middle of transitioning and not finding your basic computation going well, because the computation is more important, kwim? She's already working a year ahead. If she does BJU5 now at a solid clip (which she probably will) and gets happy, then she could go into RS G this summer as a reward. Finish BJU5, then do RS G with Zaccaro as a nice change of pace for 3 months. Then go into BJU6 and do that. Then go back and finish RS G (the 2nd half). See what I mean? You have to focus on the basics.

 

Again, I really don't know your situation. I just wouldn't take complaining at face value. If she's proficient, she should be flying through this stuff and asking for more. When she's not happy, complaining about it, etc., to me that's a sign to do more and back up, a sign to rebuild the foundation. And yes, it's just the unfortunately reality the kids need a lot of practice. I'll toss something else out to you. Don't be so quick to cut the amount of practice BJU suggests. The people writing that curriculum have been teaching a lot of kids in a lot of classrooms for a lot of years, and they KNOW what amount of practice kids need to make things click. I know some curricula put in so much practice that it seems insanely unnecessary. BJU, at this level, isn't one of them. She should do EVERYTHING on the page for Stretch. I don't know that they need to do all the student text and all Stretch, but part of the student text together on a whiteboard while you discuss and then all of Stretch. (I should find somebody who teaches the BJU5 in a school and see how they implement it!) I'm just saying don't cut out stuff. Do everything on the page. If it's slow and dreary, she's not fast enough and needs to do MORE, not less.

 

Again, hope I'm not butting in there. You could have the whiz kid. That's just what I'd be considering in your shoes.

[partyof5]

I have a friend using BJU 5 right now, so I think I'll get my hands on it for a weekend to see before buying it. And I do happen to own the BJU "spread your wings" book (not "stretch" as I had thought) so I can skim that today to assess the basic content as well.

 

These are tough things to talk through online because it is hard to interpret someone else's kids but I appreciate all you've shared! If nothing else, it provides perspectives I can't always consider until I invite an outsider to peek in and give opinions. :001_smile:

 

Thanks again. I don't feel "butt in" to at all. You've been incredibly helpful.

[TraceyS/FL]

I want to do the RD Geometry..... badly...

 

But if you didn't want to stick wtih the BJU (i admit, i skimmed the posts), what about doing Life of Fred Fractions & Decimals along with it? That would be totally opposite i would think.

 

We are going to do that combo - she's about done with Fractions - then move into BJU Pre-Alg. I'm hoping the different take on the pre-alg will be ok for her, i don't want to start Algebra until next fall. I just don't think she is ready in other ways (she tests into it).

 

I need a money tree..... i need RS Geometry! LOL!!

[PeterPan]

Spread Your Wings is considered their remedial book, so I'm not sure what use it has for you. It sort of struck me as something a teacher would use if she had a kid in the grade, had to keep moving, but knew he needed to be back, kwim? More ideally you'd just put the kid back in the proper book. That way dc gets the full instruction of the lesson the text, the fun of the Stretch pages, etc. So maybe Spread 5 is remedial/review of BJU4? And Spread 6 would be review of BJU5? Like I said, I'm not sure, just the way I interpreted it.

[PeterPan]

Tracey, I like the idea of Life of Fred and think it has its place, but if you're coming from something like RS, I think doing a full year of a solid, traditional course that covers all the basics and gets them doing everything in sufficient quantities is a good thing. I'm just thoroughly impressed with the BJU math, if my rec means anything.

[TraceyS/FL]

Tracey, I like the idea of Life of Fred and think it has its place, but if you're coming from something like RS, I think doing a full year of a solid, traditional course that covers all the basics and gets them doing everything in sufficient quantities is a good thing. I'm just thoroughly impressed with the BJU math, if my rec means anything.

 

I dont' know enough about Right Start to know what it is and isn't doing at different levels. We've done saxon - we are doing LofF to cover what we missed when we skipped 7/6 and the end of 6/5 (DD was bored).

 

I just thought that is BJU was truly a problem for the OP's dd, LofF might be an alternate that would work....

 

I feel good about the move to BJU for DD, i have the pre-alg book and it looks "normal" (and hey, i have Homesat to teach it! LOL!!!). I"m sure that my DD would have dropped right into BJU-PA just fine, but there were a variety of issues going on that had me start this way. She really LIKES Fred, and I might have mutiny if i don't let her do more of them! LOL!!

 

I'm just jealous - really, i want to be doing the RS Geometry - you know, ME do it! LOL!!

[PeterPan]

Oh sorry! For some reason I thought you had been doing RS! Sounds like you have a good plan! And I in turn think LoF looks so cool, it's a shame I don't have an excuse to use it, hehe.

 

Does your 7th grader think RS G looks cool? If so, you should know that it covers all the basics over geometry in junior high (sans proofs) in order to improve testing (PSAT, etc.). So she'd be at an awfully good age to use it, just in case you need an excuse... :)

 

But I wouldn't put off pre-algebra to do RS G. Somehow you're just gonna have to do both! :)

[TraceyS/FL]

I live to fill her day with MORE WORK! LOL!!!

 

We'd definitely be doing RS G along with something else. I haven't let her see it - because i'm pretty sure she will love it, and i just don't have the money to buy it right now. It wasn't even on my radar until the convention, i had to stop and buy the set of shapes - they had a big ball on display. Then i started looking at the geometry.... i loved geometry, and to have had this course would have been a dream!

 

Hopefully by next summer i can pull it off - my not fun shopping list has to come first. Homesat registrations.... Christmas... birthdays.... property taxes.... homeowners insurances...

 

Where DID i put that money tree????? :lol: