How much narration per day or week?

[Amy M]

I'm trying to wrap my head around WTM style writing, using copy work, dictation, and narration; but I didn't grow up with this, and am unsure how to do it "right" and how much is too much. We just started 2nd grade, and I have the WWE2 workbook, but would like to have our readings directly related to our history more. Would it be okay to use SOTW2 as WWE (for the narration/summary sections, and then pull copy work from related lit)? That would be 3 narrations per week for us. Then there's the occasional narration in FLL2. And then should I also be doing narrations for our daily reading (like in WWE, where I scribe and then ds copies 2-3 sentences for a reading notebook)? How much narration do you do per day or week, like written in a notebook either by dc or you?

 

I'm also worried that I won't do WWE "right" if I depart from the workbook.

[Coco_Clark]

Listening in :)

 

But for the record my 1st grader does an "official" written down (I write while he dictates) narration one time a day. I switch which subject its for.

[HS Mom in NC]

We used SOTW for our narrations.  We usually do 2-3 per week. We haven't used WWE or any other writing curriculum for her so far. Every homeschooler eventually tweaks, modifies, customizes and adapts at least some of their curriculum, lesson plans and assignments, if not all of it, in some way, to meet the specific needs of their family and each of their children. 

 

Trust your judgement-it's probably very good good. What do you think your child needs right now?  What do you think is enough?  Do you want to do just one kind in one specific subject a few times a week or do you want to do one from a few different sources each week? Both options are perfectly valid and reasonable. Mom knows best and you're the mom.

 

We spent 1.5 years getting through SOTW1 because she had a very short attention span.  We don't do narrations for every single chapter, but for most of them. Now that's she's 8 we're in SOTW 2 and will be done by the end of the year.  I'm teaching her notetaking (but not telling her that) by having her tell me back what she remembers and I write it in simple notetaking  format on the white board this year.  Then I have her look at the notes to do the narration that I write down.  I'm expecting a lot more detail because she's older and we've done this for quite while now. Then she copies it for handwriting-usually in 2 sittings that same day. We started Italic Script this year, so it's going a little slower which is why we break it up into two session-three on occasions when she's excited about every last detail.

When I introduce simple notetaking for a summary or for structuring another type of writing assignment in the future, I want her to be familiar with it to some degree. This is a stealthy introduction and practice.

[redsquirrel]

I use both SOTW and WWE. I have my student answer questions from the AG of SOTW and then do a narration. He also does the twice weekly narrations in WWE.

 

I have found narration to be a tremendous tool in preparing my older boy to write, so I don't worry about 'too much' narration. If anything, I worry about not enough with my younger boy.

 

Have you read the introduction to "The Complete Writer" by SWB?  It has a great overview of her writing philosophy. If you haven't then you won't know why you are doing what you are doing:

http://peacehillpress.com/language-arts/the-complete-writer-writing-with-ease-instructor-text/

Click on "writing with easy instructor text sample"

 

You might also consider her audio lectures from Peace Hill Press.

 

"The Joys of Classical Education" and "A Plan for Writing: The Elementary Years"

[Amy M]

I use both SOTW and WWE. I have my student answer questions from the AG of SOTW and then do a narration. He also does the twice weekly narrations in WWE.

 

I have found narration to be a tremendous tool in preparing my older boy to write, so I don't worry about 'too much' narration. If anything, I worry about not enough with my younger boy.

 

Have you read the introduction to "The Complete Writer" by SWB?  It has a great overview of her writing philosophy. If you haven't then you won't know why you are doing what you are doing:

http://peacehillpress.com/language-arts/the-complete-writer-writing-with-ease-instructor-text/

Click on "writing with easy instructor text sample"

 

You might also consider her audio lectures from Peace Hill Press.

 

"The Joys of Classical Education" and "A Plan for Writing: The Elementary Years"

 

Thank you! Yes, I have the Complete Writer, and I've read it, as well as TWTM, and I've listened to the lectures. :) I guess I have a thick skull. I'm just concerned about how much is too much writing, and stressing my son about having to figure out how to summarize everything. For example, if we summarize his reading every day for a reading journal as TWTM describes (which I would like to do--we're slowing getting away from our ABeka readers and trying to do reading TWTM style, incorporating lit with history), then he'd be writing 2-3 sentences for that. Then SOTW history narrations 3 times a week, where I scribe, and then he copies 2-3 sentences for that. Then the occasional FLL narration, and 2 WWE2 workbook narrations per week. It's very possible that he'd have 3 WTM version narrations per day, not counting any written work in science, and doesn't that seem a bit much? Is that what SWB intends in her recommendations? I will definitely do it, if that's what is recommended, because I think the philosophy sounds wise, and I'd like to try it.

 

But I'm wondering what others who follow TWTM do? Do they do all that? Or could I just do the copied narrations in SOTW and reading, or SOTW and WWE, or SOTW and FLL, and that's getting the WWE idea, just not using the workbook? For those who don't use the workbook, do they do a separate time of narration twice a week based off of selected readings, or do they just use history or the reading/lit time for that, as a PP said.

 

[HS Mom in NC]

I don't follow TWTM exactly, I'm a hybrid mix of Charlotte Mason (CM who had her own take on narrations), Trivium Classical Education (TWTM is one example of that model) and Unit Studies.  I integrate subjects as much as possible, so our writing assignments are based on the content we study in history and science early on.  Later it's integrated with literature and civics which are connected to our history and/or science studies.  I'm not a fan of volume for volume's sake. Neither am I a fan of compartmentalization when it's not necessary.  I love killing two birds with one stone whenever possible, so I consciously choose to streamline things as much as possible.

 

 

 

I forgot to mention, in response to "doing it wrong," that keeping an eye out for whether or not your child is able to distinguish between important main ideas and unimportant details is important.  Some kids zero in on interesting (to them) minor details and go on and on about them and miss the big picture, main ideas needed for a quality summary.

If you run into that kind of thing, you may want to read aloud a passage and demonstrate for your child a narration of it from your own mouth.  You may need to do this regularly for a while. Another approach is to ask a few questions about the main ideas before your read the passage so your child knows what kind of information to listen for.  You can try asking the same general, open ended questions after reading it aloud:

 

Who/what was this about?

Where/when did this happen?

What happened first, next, later, etc.

Why did she/he/they do/want/think that?

 

instead of asking your child to tell you everything they remember about what you just read.

If the child is still struggling you may need to assess if the passage is too long, too abstract, too complicated, too unfamiliar, etc. Some people need to break longer passages into a couple of sections.  Some people start with a short simple paragraph and work their way up to longer sections.  You'll get a good idea of where your child is and what they need fairly quickly as you go along.

[hollyhock]

2-3 narrations per WEEK is the recommendation. You are using SOTW, WWE and FLL, all of which include some type of narration requirements. I wouldn't do all of it, especially if your child doesn't love to write or you are worried about overdoing it. WWE 2 is set up to do narration on day 1, copywork or dictation on day 2 (depending how far you are in the book), narration and copywork/dictation on day 3 and dictation/copywork on day 4 (if I recall correctly). Use this schedule as your guide and use SOTW or FLL or whatever else to narrate from.

[mamamindy]

snip..

If the child is still struggling you may need to assess if the passage is too long, too abstract, too complicated, too unfamiliar, etc. Some people need to break longer passages into a couple of sections.  Some people start with a short simple paragraph and work their way up to longer sections.  You'll get a good idea of where your child is and what they need fairly quickly as you go along.

And THIS is why I like choosing my own passages.  :)  Yes, the literature selections in WWE are nice, and it is SO NICE to have something done already for me, BUT, it really happens to be easier for me to just kill two birds with one stone like Homeschool Mom in AZ said and use something that we're already reading. :)

 

And I would just say don't worry about doing it "right", "too much", "not enough".  Start with 2/week for now, while you do history, and you will build up to some more if that's what your child is capable of. :)  Hope that helps!

[redsquirrel]

Thank you! Yes, I have the Complete Writer, and I've read it, as well as TWTM, and I've listened to the lectures. :) I guess I have a thick skull. I'm just concerned about how much is too much writing, and stressing my son about having to figure out how to summarize everything. For example, if we summarize his reading every day for a reading journal as TWTM describes (which I would like to do--we're slowing getting away from our ABeka readers and trying to do reading TWTM style, incorporating lit with history), then he'd be writing 2-3 sentences for that. Then SOTW history narrations 3 times a week, where I scribe, and then he copies 2-3 sentences for that. Then the occasional FLL narration, and 2 WWE2 workbook narrations per week. It's very possible that he'd have 3 WTM version narrations per day, not counting any written work in science, and doesn't that seem a bit much? Is that what SWB intends in her recommendations? I will definitely do it, if that's what is recommended, because I think the philosophy sounds wise, and I'd like to try it.

 

But I'm wondering what others who follow TWTM do? Do they do all that? Or could I just do the copied narrations in SOTW and reading, or SOTW and WWE, or SOTW and FLL, and that's getting the WWE idea, just not using the workbook? For those who don't use the workbook, do they do a separate time of narration twice a week based off of selected readings, or do they just use history or the reading/lit time for that, as a PP said.

 

 

I consider myself someone who follows TWTM pretty closely, especially when it comes to language arts and history.  Narration isn't writing. Narration is done mostly orally. His narrations aren't handwriting practice. My son is a third grader and I don't have him write out sentences from his narrations unless it is called for by WWE. So, he does maybe two narration for SOTW per week (orally only) and the two narrations from WWE per week. Only the second narration from WWE3 has a small amount of handwriting.

 

With a second grader I don't think that second narration in WWE has dictation, does it? I think it is just narration. With narration I am his scribe and he watches but he doesn't write.

 

And I am not sure what you mean by the 'copied narrations in SOTW."  Do you mean the sample narrations in the Activity Guide? Those are not to be copied. Those are there for you to see as an example of a possible narration. You ask the student the questions about the history passage and they answer you in complete sentences. They don't write them. If they can't answer the question you reread the pertinent passage and ask the question again. Then you ask them to tell you in a couple of sentences what the lesson was about. Those sample narrations are there to give you an idea of what your child should be aiming for. If they are close enough then it is fine. They don't have to write a thing in years 1-4 unless you want them to. It isn't called for in the AG.

 

If you are having him write all those narrations, then that would be a lot of writing for a second grader, IMO. The whole point of narration in the early years is that their oral ability exceeds their physical ability to write. By having them narrate it allows them to express themselves (turning incoherent thoughts into words) without having to also do the hard work of putting words onto paper. The more they narrate, I think, they better they can become at planning out what they want to say when they are older and it is time for them to put those narrations on paper.

 

[Amy M]

Maybe a more specific question would be: If you follow TWTM's methods, how much written work do YOU expect per day out of your child?

 

Or to focus it even further, since that question could include copywork and penmanship papers, etc., how much written narration do you expect per day or week for your... 1st grader? 2nd grader? 3rd grader? 4th grader? etc.

 

This would help me to understand a scope and sequence of expectations.

 

Last month, I put TWTM's expectations in a document to help me try to understand how much to expect of my new 2nd grader. I will post what I wrote entirely below what I quoted from redsquirrel. But basically, it says, a 2nd grader will narrate twice a week in reading to you which you scribe for him, and then copy he copies it himself. Then in writing, it says use WWE2, or do dictation 3 days per week and regular narrations from history, science, and literature. The 2nd grader does write at least the 1st sentence of the oral narration, even if the parent completes writing it. Then in history (and science), the child narrates on each section of SOTW. They are writing from your dictation of their narration, and by the end of 2nd grade they are learning to write the 1st sentence themselves without the parent scribing it.

 

So my question is, how much of this written narration do you require of your child (if you try to follow TWTM)?

 

My answers to redsquirrel below, followed by the full notes I took from TWTM.

 

 

I consider myself someone who follows TWTM pretty closely, especially when it comes to language arts and history.  Narration isn't writing. Narration is done mostly orally. His narrations aren't handwriting practice. My son is a third grader and I don't have him write out sentences from his narrations unless it is called for by WWE. So, he does maybe two narration for SOTW per week (orally only) and the two narrations from WWE per week. Only the second narration from WWE3 has a small amount of handwriting.

 

With a second grader I don't think that second narration in WWE has dictation, does it? I think it is just narration. With narration I am his scribe and he watches but he doesn't write. It does have dictation after the second narration of 1-2 sentences; it does have the child write.

 

And I am not sure what you mean by the 'copied narrations in SOTW."  Do you mean the sample narrations in the Activity Guide? Those are not to be copied. Those are there for you to see as an example of a possible narration. You ask the student the questions about the history passage and they answer you in complete sentences. They don't write them. If they can't answer the question you reread the pertinent passage and ask the question again. Then you ask them to tell you in a couple of sentences what the lesson was about. Those sample narrations are there to give you an idea of what your child should be aiming for. If they are close enough then it is fine. They don't have to write a thing in years 1-4 unless you want them to. It isn't called for in the AG.

I mean what I wrote above and below here: I scribe his oral narration, then I have him read and copy it. Right now, I'm having him copy two sentences of his 3-4 sentence narration after I've written it down. I understand that the suggested narration in the AG is not meant to be copied by the student, and I don't do that. I also ask my child the questions just as you described here. But my understanding is that by grade 4, they are writing their own narration down, and the written parts increase gradually up to that point from 1st grade, when I write it completely for them. That was my understanding. ?

 

If you are having him write all those narrations, then that would be a lot of writing for a second grader, IMO. I also thought that would be a lot of narrations, thus my question of what you all do? Right now, I am just having him copy two sentences from his SOTW narrations 3 times per week. I dropped the WWE2 workbook narrations this week. I am thinking to add the 2x per week of reading narrations as outlined from TWTM below, and he already does some other copywork in penmanship, science, and the sentence copywork/dictations from WWE. So I was thinking of aiming for 1 written narration per day in 2nd grade (like what Coco Clark says she does), plus other little copywork and dictation here and there. Does that sound like too much, too little, or just right? Am I getting the WTM idea?

The whole point of narration in the early years is that their oral ability exceeds their physical ability to write. By having them narrate it allows them to express themselves (turning incoherent thoughts into words) without having to also do the hard work of putting words onto paper. The more they narrate, I think, they better they can become at planning out what they want to say when they are older and it is time for them to put those narrations on paper.

I also took note of SWB's recommendations against too much handwriting in grades 1-4, both in the lectures and in TWTM. That's part of the reason I'm wondering how much to do. But I think the point of narration encompasses more than just that thought. I thought the point of WTM narration is first to assess the child's comprehension of what they read or heard, then to learn how to summarize a passage into its main points, then learn how to hold that thought in their head, and then get it onto paper (which at first is helped by dictation).
 

 

I tried to write just the notes for 2nd grade, but sometimes the instructions seem to encompass grades 1-4:

Spelling: 15 minutes daily

Grammar: 20 minutes FLL 2 (includes narration); 10 minutes per day on memory work.

Reading: 30 minutes—Structured reading [more difficult] (schedule 30-60 minutes at another time for fun reading [at or slightly below level]); focus on stories of the Middle Ages.

• Notebook: memory work section and “my reading†section. “My Reading†section: record of books (imaginative lit) that child has read or I have read to him. (I can read to him.) Report 2x a week in 2-4 sentences something about it. “What was most exciting thing that happened in the book? Who was your favorite character, and what did he do?†Help narrow in on book’s central theme with these ?’s. Narrow answer down to under 5 sentences. (Learn to identify some details as more important than the rest. 1^st grade—write down narration, child reads back, put in notebook. Child can illustrate or copy out favorite poems. 2^nd—child dictates short narration to you; then copy themselves. Contains less of yours writing, more of his.
• Poetry—8-12 poems; pick from reading. Let him recite with recording; then recite for others (more than 1^st). Put w/ memory work section of reading notebook.
• Oral reading—When he’s reading independently, still have him read aloud to you periodically from history, science, or lit, or a reader. (Do repeated readings of certain passages once a week for fluency practice. This is from easy passages; if he misreads more than 1 out of 20, won’t help fluency. )

Writing: 10-20 minutes—Cursive. Write from dictation 3 days per week and do regular narrations from history, science, and literature; or use Level 2 of WWE.

• Dictate short sentence slowly as he writes. Choose from phonics, history, science, or lit. Stop if mistake, have write correctly. Give help with punctuation and spelling. Use pencil. Remind of proper spacing. Start simply (“The cat sat upâ€). Move to sentences from literature (E.B. White, Narnia). File in writing section of language notebook.
• Write letter once a month. Photocopy for notebook.
• In 1^st and 2^nd grade, writing consists of copywork, dictation, and oral narrations in lit, history, and science. In 2^nd, encourage student to write at least 1^st sentence of oral narration, even if you complete it.

History: 3 hours per week. Read, narrate, make pages for notebook, maps, extra reading, hands-on projects, memorize.

• For each section of SOTW, make narration page. Write his version down; by end of 2^nd child should be starting to write it down himself. (In 1^st, ask what’s most important or interesting thing you just read; prompt with ?’s if needed.) 2^nd grade—write half of narration, and ask him to write (or copy from your model) the other half. Aim to have him writing his own by end of year. Not for all the books he reads. If he writes narration for SOTW, can dictate other narrations to you.  Use narration method above. First, you write; then you dictate one sentence back to them; then they learn to write 1^st sentence themselves without your writing it down for them.
• Write caption on coloring page.
• Pay attention to bios for reading.
• Review once a month through the notebook.
• Memorize 2 lists per year.

Science: 2 hours per week.

• Encourage to begin to read portions of text aloud to you, if able. After reading, narrate, using prompting questions, “Can you tell me 2-3 things you learned?†and “What was most interesting thing?†They dictate to you as you write; but some ready to write their own. Encourage to write 1^st sentence of narration; then finish it for them.

Math: 40-60 minutes 4 days a week

 

[Amy M]

Bump.

 

Anyone else want to weigh in on how much written narration they do in their home?

[sunnyday]

This may be neither here nor there, but Bravewriter's Julie Bogart discusses this idea of required narrations in her latest podcast: http://blog.bravewriter.com/2014/02/01/13-big-juicy-conversations/

[My3girls]

I have 2 in second grade. They narrate everything we read orally. From WWE, we do copy work one day, prepared dictation one day, and unprepared dictation one day. They also, write one day from ETC and in Zane Bloser. All together, they write something twice a day or 10x a week. It's usually no more than a 12-15 word sentence each time.

[HS Mom in NC]

Recommendations are for children in general.  Not all individuals will have the same needs at the same time. In the end, you're going to have to give it a go and see where your particular child is and what your particular child's needs are.  Some, at first,  will need less than what's recommended. Others, at first will need more than what's recommended. Some, at first, will need what's recommended. They all progress at different rates too.  Children make progress in peaks and plateaus- it's not neat and tidy.

[mamamindy]

Recommendations are for children in general.  Not all individuals will have the same needs at the same time. In the end, you're going to have to give it a go and see where your particular child is and what your particular child's needs are.  Some, at first,  will need less than what's recommended. Others, at first will need more than what's recommended. Some, at first, will need what's recommended. They all progress at different rates too.  Children make progress in peaks and plateaus- it's not neat and tidy.

Can I just print up the bolded and stick it up all over my house??  This is a huge problem of mine - wanting everything to all be so neat and tidy - even the things that just can't be.

 

Sorry for the hijack - but I love your advice.  Thanks!

[HS Mom in NC]

OP, just for the sake of clarification, have you done SOTW 1 this year at all with your child?  If not, you should start with it for second grade next year. SOTW 2 is written to pick up from and refer back to SOTW 1 for a while in the beginning.  Sometimes people don't realize the SOTW books should really be done sequentially no matter what age you start them.   Since you're reading TWTM you probably already know that, but some people just dive into the section for the next grade level their child is going to start and skip anything before that. It's common for people with limited time to skip parts of a book that details an entire K-12 education.  It's been a point of confusion before on the boards and I wanted to make you aware just in case.

[Amy M]

OP, just for the sake of clarification, have you done SOTW 1 this year at all with your child?  If not, you should start with it for second grade next year. SOTW 2 is written to pick up from and refer back to SOTW 1 for a while in the beginning.  Sometimes people don't realize the SOTW books should really be done sequentially no matter what age you start them.   Since you're reading TWTM you probably already know that, but some people just dive into the section for the next grade level their child is going to start and skip anything before that. It's common for people with limited time to skip parts of a book that details an entire K-12 education.  It's been a point of confusion before on the boards and I wanted to make you aware just in case.

 

Yes, I have seen your concern on this matter...a few times. :D I did SOTW1 last year. Our school year starts in Jan/Feb, so we are now in 2nd grade doing SOTW2. I think my careful notes and thoughts above on how to implement TWTM can at least absolve me of whether I've read the grammar stage section carefully or not!

 

Anyway, I'm not sure how that applies to my question of WTM narration, regardless of how many people have skipped reading TWTM on the boards before.

 

I'm kind of surprised that here on TWTM forums, there are not more people giving their interpretation of how much written narration to expect, either how they see it from TWTM itself, or how they actually do it in their homes. As I tried to illustrate with my WTM notes above, I don't find it as clear as I thought it would be from such a practical, straightforward book. I thought this would be an easy question. Oh well, and thank you very much to those who answered.

 

[Amy M]

Recommendations are for children in general.  Not all individuals will have the same needs at the same time. In the end, you're going to have to give it a go and see where your particular child is and what your particular child's needs are.  Some, at first,  will need less than what's recommended. Others, at first will need more than what's recommended. Some, at first, will need what's recommended. They all progress at different rates too.  Children make progress in peaks and plateaus- it's not neat and tidy.

 

Yes, yes, I understand that you can't pigeonhole every child into a neat and tidy scope and sequence ala traditional school, etc. However, narration, dictation, and copywork are new to me, as in, 1 year old. I'm just trying to figure out what the WTM suggestion is exactly, or how WTM veterans carry it out, before tweaking the suggestion, which I understand that I can or may very well do. Really, all I'm asking is, what do YOU (all you WTM followers) do? How much per day or week?

 

[mamamindy]

Yes, yes, I understand that you can't pigeonhole every child into a neat and tidy scope and sequence ala traditional school, etc. However, narration, dictation, and copywork are new to me, as in, 1 year old. I'm just trying to figure out what the WTM suggestion is exactly, or how WTM veterans carry it out, before tweaking the suggestion, which I understand that I can or may very well do. Really, all I'm asking is, what do YOU (all you WTM followers) do? How much per day or week?

 

I'm sorry to have not answered your original question clearly in my above posting…

 

I am NOT a veteran, and like you, I am interested in what others have done that have walked this path already.  However, I do have a 1st and 2nd grader who do narrations.  Currently they do two oral narrations/day - one for our Bible reading, and another for History reading/Nature Study reading/or another literature of my choice during our morning all-together-reading time.  I expect more detail/chronology/summation from DD1.  We are just starting the transition from oral to written narrations.

 

So, in addition to the (oral) narrations above, my girls have copy work daily.  DD1 is learning cursive.  However, my girls LOVE to write, so they will still ask for copy work even if I have only asked her to work on cursive.  They also love any copy work out of FLL.  They are working in R&S spelling, so they write out spelling words approximately 3xwk.  They also write poems, letters, and stories, but THIS IS ALL ON THEIR OWN.   I would only expect copy work about 3x week, or penmanship daily if they're learning something new.  Hope this helps.