ABQmom Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I feel like I have totally dropped the ball here and my second dd will be entering high school in the fall. Ds will be in 7th already, and logic just isn't happening. My oldest will be in 11th grade. She and I went through "Thinking Toolbox" when she was in 7th. It was like pulling teeth. She grumbled all the way through it, and I'm not sure she understood some of it. I wanted dh to do Fallacy Detective with her the next year, but he never had the time. One year turned into another, and now three kids need some teaching in this. My oldest two had a class this year that required them to learn to write a thesis--that went pretty well. They also had a class that required them to write lots of papers. One of the papers was analytical--they had a really hard time with that paper. I really feel like my own logical thinking skills are lacking, and I don't know if I quite understand everything that logic entails in the first place! Oldest dd's thinking is still illogical at times. Just today, I had an argument with her, and she couldn't see why her argument was illogical. Or, maybe she just didn't want to admit her illogical thinking when pointed out because she wanted to win the argument? Anyway, has anyone else struggled with teaching logic? What did you do? Does anyone have any suggestions for something to teach us logic? I did a little research on the K-8 board's past posts. Angela from Walls of books had a great post that was helpful, but left me thinking I need more help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirstenH Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Have you seen the "Art of Argument" book? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQmom Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 Have you seen the "Art of Argument" book? No, I haven't seen this. What do you like about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirstenH Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I don't even have it in my hands yet. :) I liked the samples at Amazon and CBD well enough to buy it, though, and it gets much better reviews here than Fallacy Detective/Thinking Toolbox. (HINT: Any time I want to research a school product, I enter its name plus "welltrainedmind" on Google. Way better than the forum's search function.) I have Thinking Toolbox, too, and I think it's sort of badly written/laid out. I can see why your daughter disliked it. I have high hopes that AoA will be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQmom Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 I don't even have it in my hands yet. :) I liked the samples at Amazon and CBD well enough to buy it, though, and it gets much better reviews here than Fallacy Detective/Thinking Toolbox. I will check it out as well. (HINT: Any time I want to research a school product, I enter its name plus "welltrainedmind" on Google. Way better than the forum's search function.) Oh, this should be very helpful. The search function is terrible! Thanks! I have Thinking Toolbox, too, and I think it's sort of badly written/laid out. I can see why your daughter disliked it. I have high hopes that AoA will be better. I've never head anyone say this--I guess I haven't looked too much at what people were using for logic. :001_smile: Thanks for your help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela in VA Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 We are using AoA and Fallacy Detective together this year. AoA is our spine and really hits the meat of the subject with good explanations and examples, some of which are real-life. There are many fictional advertisements used to illustrate the different fallacies and some are quite funny. I like that students have to think up examples of the different types of fallacies, as well as identify them. I just coordinated the FD with the AoA chapters and dc do that pretty quickly. It's not the best book, but dc have been able to detect a few of the errors (not too many) because AoA does such a good job. The chapters are short and I do like the many examples to give practice. We don't always agree with their answers, but it gives dc an opportunity to explain why and I can see if they really understand. The biggest con to teaching logic is that a certain teenage boy loves to point out all the fallacies that mom speaks. LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQmom Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 We are using AoA and Fallacy Detective together this year. AoA is our spine and really hits the meat of the subject with good explanations and examples, some of which are real-life. There are many fictional advertisements used to illustrate the different fallacies and some are quite funny. I like that students have to think up examples of the different types of fallacies, as well as identify them. I just coordinated the FD with the AoA chapters and dc do that pretty quickly. It's not the best book, but dc have been able to detect a few of the errors (not too many) because AoA does such a good job. The chapters are short and I do like the many examples to give practice. We don't always agree with their answers, but it gives dc an opportunity to explain why and I can see if they really understand. The biggest con to teaching logic is that a certain teenage boy loves to point out all the fallacies that mom speaks. LOL! LOL! That would be a disadvantage. I haven't done Fallacy Detective yet, but would still like to, so it's good to know I good use them together. Was it easy to coordinate the two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terri NS Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 We are using Art of Argument as well. DD (grade 10) is enjoying it and says she can't watch or look at print commercials the same way anymore : ) This subject is mostly done on her own. I've outlined what she needs to do each day and I check in with her daily as a discussion for 5-10 minutes, going over the exercise answers or just getting her to tell me what she read. It takes her maybe 15 minutes a day and then our discussion. We began is January and she will be finished the book by the end of June. I do wish I had bought the DVD to go with it, but dd doesn't like watching things very much so I didn't. I will be buying the Discovery of Deduction for next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQmom Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 We are using Art of Argument as well. DD (grade 10) is enjoying it and says she can't watch or look at print commercials the same way anymore : ) This subject is mostly done on her own. I've outlined what she needs to do each day and I check in with her daily as a discussion for 5-10 minutes, going over the exercise answers or just getting her to tell me what she read. It takes her maybe 15 minutes a day and then our discussion. We began is January and she will be finished the book by the end of June. I do wish I had bought the DVD to go with it, but dd doesn't like watching things very much so I didn't. I will be buying the Discovery of Deduction for next year. Thanks. I was wondering how much time it would take. There is a DVD that goes with it? Where do get that? Is the Discovery of Deduction by the same company/author? Mm…I guess I need to look at that book as well. Anyone else done the D of D? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terri NS Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Here is a link to all the products- http://classicalacademicpress.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candid Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Here's a link to a logic stage conversation here on Art of Argument: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=365987 Based on the discussion on the thread I will not get the DVD. I'm planning to use this with my youngest next year. For my oldest we've used the Critical Thinking set from the Building Thinking Skills folks: http://www.criticalthinking.com/getProductDetails.do?code=c&id=01201 It might be a better match for your oldest. I'd get both and decide which one the one in the middle should use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQmom Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 Here is a link to all the products- http://classicalacademicpress.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2 Thanks for that link--very helpful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQmom Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 Here's a link to a logic stage conversation here on Art of Argument: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=365987 Based on the discussion on the thread I will not get the DVD. I'm planning to use this with my youngest next year. For my oldest we've used the Critical Thinking set from the Building Thinking Skills folks: http://www.criticalthinking.com/getProductDetails.do?code=c&id=01201 It might be a better match for your oldest. I'd get both and decide which one the one in the middle should use. Thanks for this info. That thread did not convince me not to use the DVD's although I agree that the sample was somewhat dull. Also, for the price, if I can do the book with my dc just as well without the DVD's, I'd probably rather do without. Does anyone else have an opinion on the DVD's? Do they really lend that much more to the book? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQmom Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 Another question about A of A. Did you feel like the teacher's manual was necessary? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terri NS Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 The teacher's manual not only has the answers to the questions but also has quizzes and final tests ready to go. I really appreciated the teacher's manual mainly as a time saver for myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQmom Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 Has anyone used The Argument Builder? What do you think about it? Easy to use? Teach concepts well? Is it teacher intensive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candid Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Thanks for this info. That thread did not convince me not to use the DVD's although I agree that the sample was somewhat dull. Also, for the price, if I can do the book with my dc just as well without the DVD's, I'd probably rather do without. Does anyone else have an opinion on the DVD's? Do they really lend that much more to the book? I've already met my home school life maximum of dull and not adding anything videos :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachnut Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Another question about A of A. Did you feel like the teacher's manual was necessary? I actually ONLY bought the teacher's manual. Most of the info in the student book was reading & discussion. The times when my kid's needed to write something (like a definition), they'd write it out on a sheet of notebook paper. Or, I'd just type up a few questions in a Word document (based on a fallacy we just read) and print out a worksheet for them to do. Most of the time, tho, we just read and discussed. I love the insights given in the teacher's manual, so I thought it was a worthwhile purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQmom Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 I've already met my home school life maximum of dull and not adding anything videos :D I understand. Ha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQmom Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 I actually ONLY bought the teacher's manual. Most of the info in the student book was reading & discussion. The times when my kid's needed to write something (like a definition), they'd write it out on a sheet of notebook paper. Or, I'd just type up a few questions in a Word document (based on a fallacy we just read) and print out a worksheet for them to do. Most of the time, tho, we just read and discussed. I love the insights given in the teacher's manual, so I thought it was a worthwhile purchase. Mmm… So, the info from the student book was also in the TE? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachnut Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Yes, it appears that the teacher's edition contains the entire student text plus all the extra teacher tips, answers, etc. I compared online samples and I think I even contacted the publisher to verify this. So, if you don't want to bother with lots student worksheets, you can use the teacher's guide for discussion and teaching tips and, if you want, just make up your own worksheets based on what you've read. Most of it is really discussion, other than definitions and an end-of-chapter review. I only have 2 kids, so I didn't think it was necessary to get both the teacher's edition and the student workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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