ssexton Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 My ds will be in 8th grade next year. He took an outside writing/literature class this year, in which he did quite a bit of writing. He still needs to sharpen his skills, though. :) I'm wondering which of these programs should be done first? I'd also like to use Lost Tools of Writing at some point. Any thoughts? Thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinL in Canada Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 They are two rather different beasts. I've used both in co-op classes. WW is briefer and teaches how to write one type of literary analysis essay (thesis statement, paragraph structure, intro + conclusion) but there's an assumption that the student already knows the basics of expository essay writing. Emphasis is placed formt he outset on annotating as one reads. The basic elements of fiction (plot, character, setting,etc) are covered along with a few literary terms and elements in the course of studying a handful of short stories and poems. LLftLOTR is a much meatier program with side units on such topics as etymology, Beowulf, the epic, Arthurian legend, etc. Many more literary terms are presented, but unfortunately generally dropped and not returned to as the program progresses (I suppose the assumption is that , once they're presented, the teacher and student should continue to remain alert for those elements in the novel through the rest of the program). This course includes fill-in-the-blank review sheets (to ensure the student has read the book--busywork, in my view), vocab, ,tests, and essay assignments. No instruction, however, is given re literary essay writing (and the essay topics tend to be monotonously repetitive--I had to come up with some of my own) and no direction re annotating--vital for such a massive tome as LOTR!. If your son can already write a literary analysis essay (knows how to establish a thesis, present assertions backed by quotations/ proof and supported with commentary, etc), then he doesn't need WW. If he can't yet do that, then WW would be a better first choice before LLftLOTR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssexton Posted April 3, 2012 Author Share Posted April 3, 2012 Robin, thanks so much for your reply! It sounds like WttW might be the best for next year. He has the basics of expository essay writing down, and he has written a few literary analysis papers, but he's not solid on annotating, and I think he needs more practice. I think a solid, clear review on the process would be helpful before moving on. We'll be finishing up American history this year, and I think I'd rather do LLftLOTR when we're back in Ancients/medieval time period. Not necessary I'm sure, but it just seems somehow more appropriate. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Totally agree with Robin's assessment that the 2 are very different programs -- but I guess I come down on the opposite side, with go with LLftLotR first, for a different reason. (Sorry Robin! :tongue_smilie:) I think LLftLotR makes a better first step into literary analysis, esp. for an 8th grader: - more general/wide focus - more informal and gentle - uses very high-interest works Plus, that would easily allow you to skip the writing assignments in LLftLotR and do a separate writing program to get solid in ALL areas of writing that will be needed for high school. Then do to WttW which is a bit more formal and more geared towards high school students, plus it is more narrow in its focus: - teaching annotation (and using your annotations as examples in a literary analysis essay) - specific step-by-step for writing a literary analysis essay (but not other types of writing used in high school) - looking for, then using specific literary elements in a literary analysis essay - uses several short stories that are more difficult/not so easily accessible or of interest to younger students BTW -- we did LLftLotR while doing Ancient Great Books, and it was wonderful! It worked just as well as doing LotR during Medieval. LotR gave us a bit of a break from being overwhelmed by those pesky Greeks :tongue_smilie: and kept us from getting sick of the Ancients. BUT, like many of those ancient works, LotR is an epic. We read the unit in LLftLotR on the 11 conventions of an epic FIRST, and it really added to our reading of The Iliad and The Odyssey. Another thought: we spread out WttW, and did a chapter at a time, and then did other things. So we did WttW over 2 years. You could spread out WttW over the year and do it at the same time as LotR, as time permits, and even finish it up the following year. And a final thought: at late middle school/high school age, I really think it's important to start getting DC's input and giving them some choice over what they are studying. Having DC's "buy-in" goes a LOONNGG way in them retaining the information and making the year go smoother! ;) Just a thought! Just "stirring the pot" and giving you a different perspective! ;) BEST of luck, whatever you decide! And ENJOY your literature adventures! Warmest regards, Lori D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Another Jen Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 BTW -- we did LLftLotR while doing Ancient Great Books, and it was wonderful! It worked just as well as doing LotR during Medieval. LotR gave us a bit of a break from being overwhelmed by those pesky Greeks :tongue_smilie: and kept us from getting sick of the Ancients. BUT, like many of those ancient works, LotR is an epic. We read the unit in LLftLotR on the 11 conventions of an epic FIRST, and it really added to our reading of The Iliad and The Odyssey. Another thought: we spread out WttW, and did a chapter at a time, and then did other things. So we did WttW over 2 years. You could spread out WttW over the year and do it at the same time as LotR, as time permits, and even finish it up the following year. And a final thought: at late middle school/high school age, I really think it's important to start getting DC's input and giving them some choice over what they are studying. Having DC's "buy-in" goes a LOONNGG way in them retaining the information and making the year go smoother! ;) Just a thought! Just "stirring the pot" and giving you a different perspective! ;) BEST of luck, whatever you decide! And ENJOY your literature adventures! Warmest regards, Lori D. Lori, I'm totally stealing your plan! Thanks for figuring out the next two years of Lit and writing for me! Jen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinL in Canada Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Totally agree with Robin's assessment that the 2 are very different programs -- but I guess I come down on the opposite side, with go with LLftLotR first, for a different reason. (Sorry Robin! :tongue_smilie:) I think LLftLotR makes a better first step into literary analysis, esp. for an 8th grader: - more general/wide focus - more informal and gentle - uses very high-interest works Plus, that would easily allow you to skip the writing assignments in LLftLotR and do a separate writing program to get solid in ALL areas of writing that will be needed for high school. Then do to WttW which is a bit more formal and more geared towards high school students, plus it is more narrow in its focus: - teaching annotation (and using your annotations as examples in a literary analysis essay) - specific step-by-step for writing a literary analysis essay (but not other types of writing used in high school) - looking for, then using specific literary elements in a literary analysis essay - uses several short stories that are more difficult/not so easily accessible or of interest to younger students BTW -- we did LLftLotR while doing Ancient Great Books, and it was wonderful! It worked just as well as doing LotR during Medieval. LotR gave us a bit of a break from being overwhelmed by those pesky Greeks :tongue_smilie: and kept us from getting sick of the Ancients. BUT, like many of those ancient works, LotR is an epic. We read the unit in LLftLotR on the 11 conventions of an epic FIRST, and it really added to our reading of The Iliad and The Odyssey. Another thought: we spread out WttW, and did a chapter at a time, and then did other things. So we did WttW over 2 years. You could spread out WttW over the year and do it at the same time as LotR, as time permits, and even finish it up the following year. I suppose it would depend in part on what you hoped to accomplish with the LLftLOTR program. If you want your son to write the formal essays, then he needs to know how to write literary analysis --needs to know how to annotate a text so that he can easily locate potential quotations/ evidence; needs to know how to come up with a thesis and body paragraphs based on the thesis; etc. If, however, you just want to read/ discuss the novel, enjoy the side units, and discuss orally the literary terms, then no, he would not need to know how to write a lit analysis essay first. My suggestion of WW first was based on the assumption that you would want more writing instruction before doing LLftLOTR as I also assumed you'd want to have your son write the essays--but you know what they say about "assuming" :). When I taught the course in a co-op, I spent some time also instructing te students in how to write a literature essay so that they could tackle the written assignments in the program, and we went into some depth re the side units, more so than I think would work with a younger student. But you could certainly do the programs the way Lori suggests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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