Logic stage writing: Need help with the "big picture"

[Colleen in NS]

Ds is starting grade 5 next summer. I've found immense help in the WTM, and SWB's Writing Without Fear CD for guidance in writing. We plan to continue with R&S for grammar and writing, since they are recommended in WTM.

 

But, now I feel like I need to "own" my reasons for using R&S (or whatever other writing program I might look at - though I don't *want* to look at other programs, for fear of getting confused!! LOL). I feel I need to have a bigger picture of what I am trying to accomplish in teaching writing - what are the goals to reach by the end of logic stage - I am embarrassed to say, I don't really know!

 

I remember a part of WTM that said that in the first four grades, students vary wildly in their skills, but the overall *goal* is to bring them up to 4th grade skills by the *end* of 4th grade. That idea has kept me on course over the past four years.

 

For other subjects like math, I have vague goals - cover basic arithmetic to prepare for algebra, etc.. Or for grammar/spelling/vocab. - master these so that writing is clearer. Latin - so that English is easier to study. History/Science/Lit. are all content areas, and I know we need the skills to study these. No problem.

 

But I guess from reading so many writing posts, and reading about so many writing programs, I'm just confused about just what logic stage writing is all about, and what the end goals are. I understand that outlining is for pulling apart a text and examining it. I understand that longer narrations are for putting those pieces back together. But, how does R&S writing or other writing programs fit into the logic stage picture? What are the goals of using the exercises, and how do you practically implement these exercises into the four years of writing practice? Is the goal simply to learn different types of writing, practice them, then use them in rhetoric stage?

 

I can go back and listen to my writing CD again for things I missed (which I'm sure are many, since I concentrated on grammar stage), but I'd like some input here, too. Or maybe I've been inside in January for too long, LOL!!

 

Thanks for any thoughts.

[Alana in Canada]

I've just started looking into this, so I can't give you too much: but the information at Classical Home Education sets out the objective nicely and breaks it down for teaching too:

 

The goal at the end of the dialectic stage will be to write a grammatically correct and logically clear and well-organized essay on any topic with which the child is familiar. With that goal in mind, we can break the essay down into its basic components. All essays are formed of paragraphs, and all paragraphs are formed of sentences. Therefore, in the first year of the dialectic we learn to write clear and grammatically correct sentences. In the second year we take the foundation of sentences that we have laid and learn to put them together into clear, logical, and well-organized paragraphs. In the third year we take the foundation of paragraphs that we have laid and learn to put them together into clear, logical, and well-organized essays.

 

from: http://www.classical-homeschooling.org/dialectic/writing.html

 

hth. Looking forward to more replies!

[Alana in Canada]

oh, and I should mention that I've started taking a paragraph, typing it out for my son and identifying the topic sentence and it's supporting details. It's an idea I got from Momof7 which I saved from an old post.

 

We start analyzing paragraph structure from copywork in the same way we began our study of grammar. We discuss what the paragraph is describing. What is the main idea? What do we learn about the main idea? From that, they learn about topic sentences and supporting details. We do this for weeks!

 

We play games with paragraphs. I print up logically ordered paragraphs that I have typed into individual lines and cut them apart. I mix them up and they have to unscramble the sentences and put the paragraph back together correctly. This is an enormous skill to master. It means they understand topic sentence and logical sequencing. We continue working on this until they are able to do it fairly easily. (Some paragraphs are easier than others….how-tos are the easiest, descriptives are harder, etc. Gradually increase the difficulty level. The key is to let them experience success while still learning.)

 

After basic paragraph reconstruction is mastered, I start to add a twist….I will add “misfit†sentences into the mix. For example, if the paragraph is about a bear stealing a cake from a camper’s picnic table, I might add a sentence like, “I love to eat cake.†This skill helps them learn to focus on the topic sentence and make sure the information belongs. This is an essential writing skill that is really better developed in the pre-writing skill phase. If they can identify misfit sentences in other people’s paragraphs, it makes it easier to help them find them in their own.

 

Using 2nd, 3rd, and sometimes 4th grade to focus on developing pre-writing skills enables children to move into the writing stage with the tools they need in order to progress with confidence. You wouldn’t give a child a bunch of word problems in math to complete without giving them a foundation in basic arithmetic. Writing is similar. You shouldn’t expect them to start writing independently without understanding the fundamentals of how writing is structured.

[Rhondabee]

I did ABeka in 5th grade, so I can't speak to that as far as R&S goes, but....

 

What I would encourage you to do is get all the mileage you can out of *every* writing assignment. In R&S 6 (and in 7), you will start with different types of paragraphs. Assign a different type of paragraph in History each week. If you can figure out how to do that in Science, more power to ya. (That was easier to do using Prentice Hall than it has been in Apologia.)

 

Keep rotating through and assigning these different types of paragraphs cross-curricularly through the entire year, even though you will move on to other types of writing (letters, book reports, etc.). Be sure that each paragraph has a topic sentence, and that the sentences belong in the paragraph. How much further you proof may vary. If you can figure out how to assign things like "writing a letter" cross-curricularly, that's wonderful. (I always seem to think of these things too late :( )

 

In R&S-6, you will learn how to take notes from multiple sources, then re-order them to make an outline, and write a report. In R&S-7, you will go through the same process, but it will be an oral report. They will have to outline the body of their presentation, and write out complete paragraphs for the introduction and conclusion. (They also do a great job teaching how to narrow down the topic.)

 

We haven't gotten this far yet, but after the oral report (we're here), you will start compiling a descriptive composition "of at least 300 words". This is still not an "essay" with a thesis and 5-paragraphs, but between this and the oral report, you are definitely getting close!

 

I plan to start doing "mini-reports" each week in History (I should have done this in 6th grade, but we had other issues still to deal with from ps-gaps) - but, I will simply have him do the outline without "taking notes" first. We will probably have to do this together for a while. (Oh , yeah!)

 

In R&S-8, Lesson 24 covers the "Types of Composition", and includes exposition, argument, narration and description. The writing assignment for that lesson is still paragraphs, but after reviewing outlines and using them for compositions, they will be preparing a 4-6 minute oral report, and then converting that to a written report.

 

Both R&S7 and 8 includes story-writing (and this includes alot of literary analysis terms) and poetry. R&S 8 also includes writing a persuasive argument. This is where you will really want to make sure they understand the 5-paragraph essay we all know and love!

 

There is so much more, of course. But, after looking through R&S8 (just got it a few weeks ago), I feel so relieved. Like, "Yes! It's in there! We're gonna be ok!"

 

But, I wish I could go back and do the writing assignments more thoroughly. I guess, I am trying to view it more as a "writing course with grammar" rather than a "grammar course with writing thrown in".

 

Does any of that help?

[Rhondabee]

I have CW Aesop and Homer here. And Class. Comp Fable. And Wordsmith (which I really *tried* to add to R&S after worrying it wouldn't be enough).

 

Really and truly, I like them all. But, R&S meets us where we are and will take us where we need to go. I can push as hard or as easy as we can stand or need, and still feel like we are on the right track.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, we just started hs'ing 1/2-way thru 5th grade. But, I was able to start R&S in 6th, and it ramped my ds up gradually, but so much faster than I would have thought possible. Now, I can dig in and ask for more - you'll be able to do that much faster. So, it's very flexible.

[Colleen in NS]

Alana,

 

Thanks for directing me to that website - it did make things a little clearer. Plus, I found this paragraph to be helpful:

 

"The dialectic stage deals with analysis and concentrates on developing logical thinking skills. It is the perfect time to begin learning how to construct correct, clear, and logical writing. Since sentences are the building blocks of all other forms of writing, we begin the dialectic stage with an in-depth analysis of sentences. Sentences are used to build paragraphs, the focus of the second year of the curriculum. We conclude the dialectic stage with much practice in clear and well-ordered essay-writing, using the building blocks of sentences and paragraphs previously learned."

[Colleen in NS]

I liked seeing all your details of how you are doing writing in logic stage, in all the content areas, using R&S!! :) I printed it off so I could mull it over.

 

I think I can see now how I might use some of those lessons (like the types of paragraphs that you mentioned) to do writing in science or history...or at least as we do the lessons, it might become clearer to me. I think I've chatted on here before with Janice in NJ and maybe you, too, about this. I thought, though, that I should have been applying the grammar stage writing lessons across the curriculum, but decided not to for now - instead concentrating on the dictation and narration, while letting ds absorb what he could from reading through the writing lessons in R&S.

 

I went back and dug around in my WTM book, plus looked at a set of SWB's writing seminar notes online to try and get a better idea of the overall goals for writing for logic stage. There are some items mentioned in the writing CD and on these notes that are not mentioned in WTM - so I tried to piece things together in my mind. It appears to me that logic stage writing is about outlining to learn to analyze a passage, rewriting from that outline to - practice imitating good writers? put the facts in the passage read back together in your own words? It also appears to me to be about learning, with new layers each year in R&S, to do different types of writing - that are to be used for rhetoric stage writing.

 

THEN, I looked in the rhetoric section of WTM - the beginning of the language arts chapter talks about how the student has been learning all sorts of writing skills in the first 8 grades, and now rhetoric stage is the time to put all those skills to work. In the chapter on great books, there is a part that talks about writing about the book read (as taught in TWEM), and this talks about USING the various types of writing previously learned in the writing programs over the years.

 

So what do you think - do you think that the grammar and logic stages are the time to learn, learn, learn all the writing skills, in order to do various types of writing throughout the rhetoric stage (this is probably something obvious to everyone else but me....yet, I feel like I maybe have talked about this before here.....I really need to get out of the house and clear up my mind, LOL! :))

 

The other thing I don't get, though, is how to transition ds from reluctantly writing two or three sentences of a narration, to writing possibly more sentences than that for a history outline, or writing two or three paragraphs for a literature narration. I wonder if I should just keep on writing for him into 5th grade, as he keeps practicing dictation, or if I should let him learn to type, or what? Any advice on the transition? Maybe 5th grade won't be the time to transition? How will I know? His narration skills are pretty good, I think - he's quite articulate - just can't physically write that much without protest.

 

I think I'm worrying too much about this - but it sure helps to have someone else to talk with. :)

[Alana in Canada]

I'm glad you found that helpful.

 

My son doesn't like his pencil either--so, I've started him on spongebob typing. He writes actual stories, so it's much more interesting to him than the drill of Mavis Beacon (which, oddly, my daughter prefers!)

 

OK: how to transition.

 

#1 he needs to know how to outline.

Does he know how to do this? (I have two graduate degrees and I never actually learned this except when I was writing my own papers. I couldn't outline someone else's work to save my life. Needless to say I was not in a field which required research!)

 

#2 He needs to know how to write from an outline and put it back into his own words. I was looking at IW tonight (from Logos): the materials in the Aesop book look like they are designed to do this. You could print out the sampler and see how your ds does...and keep going with the sample stuff until you see a snag and then consider your options from there.

 

I'm sorry, my computer time is up. Good luck!

[Rhondabee]

I liked seeing all your details of how you are doing writing in logic stage, in all the content areas, using R&S!! :) I printed it off so I could mull it over.

 

I think I can see now how I might use some of those lessons (like the types of paragraphs that you mentioned) to do writing in science or history...or at least as we do the lessons, it might become clearer to me. I think I've chatted on here before with Janice in NJ and maybe you, too, about this. I thought, though, that I should have been applying the grammar stage writing lessons across the curriculum, but decided not to for now - instead concentrating on the dictation and narration, while letting ds absorb what he could from reading through the writing lessons in R&S.

 

Well, you know the past is the past. Just let it go. If I can start this thing in 6th grade completely unprepared, then you have no worries. =) Still, I think from my notes SWB does recommend starting a writing program (just 2 days/wk) in 3rd and 4th. I would recommend adding in the R&S writing without making a lot of fanfare about it - that averages out to about 2 days per week. (I'm counting the "make up sentences exercises" in R&S 4.)

 

I went back and dug around in my WTM book, plus looked at a set of SWB's writing seminar notes online to try and get a better idea of the overall goals for writing for logic stage. There are some items mentioned in the writing CD and on these notes that are not mentioned in WTM - so I tried to piece things together in my mind. It appears to me that logic stage writing is about outlining to learn to analyze a passage, rewriting from that outline to - practice imitating good writers? put the facts in the passage read back together in your own words? It also appears to me to be about learning, with new layers each year in R&S, to do different types of writing - that are to be used for rhetoric stage writing.

 

Yes! If memory of the CD serves me correctly, I don't think she expects them to be re-writing the passages until 7th grade, when they're doing the 3-point outlines. (I mean, how can you re-write an entire passage if all you have on your outline is the main point of each paragraph?) Also, that isn't something that needs to be done *every* week, unless you are not using any sort of writing program. (For example, if you were using Abeka -which was recommended at the time of the CD - but just hated Writing Strands.)

 

It does seem like at some times she recommends doing just the outline, or just the outline and re-writing from the outline; while at other times, they are to do extra reading and also write a report about that. Frankly, we have not been very good and the "write a report about that." I'm hoping that will change, as I start using SOTW as our extra reading.

 

THEN, I looked in the rhetoric section of WTM - the beginning of the language arts chapter talks about how the student has been learning all sorts of writing skills in the first 8 grades, and now rhetoric stage is the time to put all those skills to work. In the chapter on great books, there is a part that talks about writing about the book read (as taught in TWEM), and this talks about USING the various types of writing previously learned in the writing programs over the years.

 

Yes, again! (From what I can tell - LOL!) I have tried to preview all the books for rhetoric stage, and from what I see, the logic stage is about "getting the tools ready to learn an essay" and rhetoric stage stuff will teach more and more about how to put essays together. One book is described as taking the stuff learned in logic (which is rather math-oriented), and applying it to writing. My guess is that it will be more than just learning a 5-paragraph form to fill out - don't really know for sure.

 

So what do you think - do you think that the grammar and logic stages are the time to learn, learn, learn all the writing skills, in order to do various types of writing throughout the rhetoric stage (this is probably something obvious to everyone else but me....yet, I feel like I maybe have talked about this before here.....I really need to get out of the house and clear up my mind, LOL!

 

Yes, I think that is one reason why WTM waits to do the progym until high school. Because by the time you get to it, grammar, spelling, penmanship, logic, etc. is out of the way and you can concentrate on just the writing aspect of the exercises.

 

The other thing I don't get, though, is how to transition ds from reluctantly writing two or three sentences of a narration, to writing possibly more sentences than that for a history outline, or writing two or three paragraphs for a literature narration. I wonder if I should just keep on writing for him into 5th grade, as he keeps practicing dictation, or if I should let him learn to type, or what? Any advice on the transition? Maybe 5th grade won't be the time to transition? How will I know? His narration skills are pretty good, I think - he's quite articulate - just can't physically write that much without protest.

 

Honestly, I think you shouldn't be writing for him in 5th grade. The only way, barring a physical or psychological impairment, to helping him build the muscles and confidence needed to do his own writing is to do more of it, not less. I know that makes it hard for him to want to do his best on narrations. My 4th grader was doing 2 to 3 pages of mom-written narrations last year, and once he had to start doing them on his own they quickly dropped to 2-3 sentences. :p

 

What I did was allow him to dictate to me, but then he had to re-write it all himself for homework. Eventually, he got tired of that, and now he writes a page to a page and a half. Or, I've heard recommendations of allowing them to dictate into a tape player, and then play it back for themselves. This is probably the most ideal, I just didn't have the desire to spend money on a tape player or tapes.

 

I think I'm worrying too much about this - but it sure helps to have someone else to talk with.

 

I think the hardest part is that you will constantly be reading about writing programs that seem much more advanced in middle school than what you will be working on. You will read that R&S isn't really enough. (hence my collection of pristine-condition supplemental writing curriculum!) When those moments come, I now try to remind myself that I didn't know what a 5-paragraph essay was until AP English, and somehow still managed a 5 on the exam. It's really not that hard to learn to fill out the form *if* you have all those paragraph tools in your toolbelt. Best wishes! :D

[Colleen in NS]

I think the hardest part is that you will constantly be reading about writing programs that seem much more advanced in middle school than what you will be working on. You will read that R&S isn't really enough. (hence my collection of pristine-condition supplemental writing curriculum!) When those moments come, I now try to remind myself that I didn't know what a 5-paragraph essay was until AP English, and somehow still managed a 5 on the exam. It's really not that hard to learn to fill out the form *if* you have all those paragraph tools in your toolbelt. Best wishes! :D

 

Thank you soooo much once again for chatting with me about WRITING! You and Janice in NJ have helped me when I've panicked in the past. I know I can trust the advice and resources in WTM and on the writing CD, but I just have a hard time sometimes putting all of it together into a bigger picture - that's just a personal struggle I have - with piecing thoughts together. And then I panic. And chat here. And go back and read my WTM and CD notes. And read other posts I've printed off in the past (I printed off your post from today, too, so I can remember this conversation - if I remember to read my notes before I post here in a panic again, LOL!!!!!) Guess that's why I want so much to learn WELL how to teach writing to my kids, so they don't have this struggle. As Janice in NJ says, self-education first.

 

ROTFL on your comment about all your pristine condition writing curriculums!

 

And I have to admit here, I have no idea what a 5 paragraph essay is. I mean, I know it's an essay consisting of 5 paragraphs, but what is the significance of this thing that I see discussed here time and again?

[Alana in Canada]

Here is a quick 5 paragraph essay:

 

Colleen in NS is wondering how to teach her child writing. She has asked for help and Rhonda bee has responded with several helpful suggestions.

 

The first suggestion is to add Rod and Staff writing excercises two days a week. Rhondabee also advised Colleen not to worry about what she hasn't done and to focus on continuing to build the skills she's already teaching.

 

Some of those skills include essential tasks like grammar, spelling, penmanship and logic. Rhondabee also encouraged Colleen to teach her son how to outline and how to write from an outline.

 

The last most important piece of advice was to insist on more writing, not less. Rhondabee told Colleen how it is working in their home and how her son is writing his narrations on his own.

 

These suggestions should help Colleen find the best way to teach writing to her son.

 

 

 

(I always have problems with conclusions--and this was really quick and dirty.)

Para: 1. Topic sentence: what is this essay about.

2,3,4: The body. Each paragraph talks about one aspect of the topic.

5: the conclusion: what did we talk about in the essay. Do not introduce anything new.

 

HTH.

[Rhondabee]

and for a moment there I thought maybe I was too! :D

 

Yes, yes and yes! Very good job!

 

If you want more, just google, "how to write an essay" and you will be *amazed* at how many tutorials there are out there, some of which are actually quite witty. The main thing is, in a 5-paragraph essay you want to end your introductory paragraph with a thesis statement. (I *think* it was on the CD that SWB defines a thesis - basically a statement that is an opinion which can be supported by facts).

 

The "body" of the essay is the three middle paragraphs, each one devoted to one fact which supports your thesis.

 

In the closing paragraph, you basically summarize your thesis and facts (or, as we learned just recently in R&S-7, you can write a "call to action" in which you challenge the reader to respond in a certain way).

 

Because thesis statements involve forming an opinion and supporting them, they are what WTM would save for Rhetoric stage writing. Logic stage writing is more concerned with facts, not opinions.

 

As an aside, this is why I think WTM saves true "literary analysis" for Rhetoric stage as well. Almost all literary analysis is opinion supported by details from the book. (We are using the WTM Lit list and even the questions from WEM to guide our discussions, but I still just have my ds write narrations/summaries and then a one or two sentence evaluation at the end, per the WTM Logic suggestions.)

 

I know it's hard to trust a road you've never been down on. My 4th gr son has it *so* much easier, because even though I haven't done 5th grade, I can see what's coming up in 6th and 7th and how it is laying such a solid foundation. I will be in a pickle in a few years when dd is ready to start 3rd and I still have R&S-3, but SWB's new writing curriculum will be calling.....:(

[Rhondabee]

Sorry - I was born in FL and raised in GA. And I just don't *do* Canada!!! =)

[Colleen in NS]

Whaddya mean, you don't *do* Canada???? It's beautiful up here!! LOL And freezing - I don't blame you - my sister lives in NC and I LOVE visiting her. It IS nice up here, though, in the late spring, summer and all through the fall.

 

Anyway, many thanks to both you and Alana - esp. for showing me the 5 paragraph essay - I still don't really get *why* it seems to be a goal for people, but maybe that will become clearer to me later (which is what seems to happen to me as I keep traveling down this unknown road -thank you for your kind words about that road, BTW, Rhonda - very encouraging).

 

I got out my Writing Without Fear CD last night and listened to it again, this time for the logic stage items. I've listened the whole way through before several times, but had concentrated on taking notes for grammar stage. Last night, I made detailed notes about logic stage, and started to make notes about rhetoric stage - can I just say with a "whooohoooo" that many things became so much clearer to me as I took notes?????????? I should have just done that in the first place before I started worrying the other day - but then I wouldn't have enjoyed the back and forth here, LOL! Actually, several things you said, Rhonda, were confirmed to me as I listened last night.

 

Something SWB said at the beginning of the rhetoric section was basically that if you are doing all the copywork/dictation, narration, outlining, rewriting from outlines - then high school writing will be a snap. OH how that made me breathe a sigh of relief. I started to listen more to that part and take notes, but by then my brain was too full. So I stopped, and just took confidence from that statement, knowing I can come back to it later.

 

And I can't wait to read her writing books as they come out.

 

Ciao from freezing Canada!

[Heather in WI]

I somehow stumbled upon this thread by accident, but it was SO good and answered some of the questions I'm having about heading into the logic stage with my oldest next year. Thank you!

[Capt_Uhura]

Great thread! Alana in Canada - you made my day with that 5-paragraph essay! You're too cool!

 

Capt_Uhura

[homeschooltoone]

This thread is very informative. Thank you ladies.

[Colleen in NS]

I somehow stumbled upon this thread by accident, but it was SO good and answered some of the questions I'm having about heading into the logic stage with my oldest next year. Thank you!

 

How funny to see this thread pop up again after two years! And a relief to say that I feel like I have the "big picture" now. Glad it was helpful to some!