UGH

[choirfarm]

Ok, there was a geometry problem that was fairly easy. It gave the dimensions of the carpet and then the height of the room. It asked him for how many rolls of wallpaper he needed. He couldn't get it... I tried to get him to draw it on paper, ( I cannot draw 3 dimensionally.) Then I took him into the living room and asked him what information he was given and to show me in our living room. Well, that ended in his storming off to his room. Saying, "Mom, I just can't get math. I'm just stupid. I can't get it!" So I let him cool off while I cut out pieces of the information out of paper. I had him put it together and then had him figure it out. He finally could.. But good grief. He needs to get this... 30 minutes on one problem is killing us.

 

Christine

[MyThreeSons]

My middle ds went from being very good at math to extremely frustrated with the most basic concepts.

 

He called from college Thursday night, and asked for help with his math class. Tutoring Geometry concepts over the phone is difficult. But I was so pleased to hear him have a moment of clarity when he actually said "Cool!! I know what to do now." I'm hoping that he has regained some of his confidence.

[Teachin'Mine]

Christine, I know that you had changed math programs, but I couldn't remember the switch and then saw he went from TT to Chalkdust. Isn't Chalkdust more challenging than TT? Could it be that switching programs caused some gaps which are making the transition difficult? I'm not familiar with either program. I know that many here are against programs which just teach formulas, but when it comes to geometry and surface area and such, doing it that way is really helpful. It makes doing the math so much easier, and it's later that they are able to apply that knowledge in new ways. Just a thought. Then again it could just be part of being 14.

[Nan in Mass]

So the problem was that he didn't know that he could get the missing dimensions of the walls from the rug? Or could he get that part but then not be able to figure out how to get the number of rolls?

 

If it was the rug, did you try asking why he thought they included the information about the rug? I taught mine to work backwards. It would go something like this: To figure out how many rolls, I need to know the dimensions of the walls. Hmmm... they only gave me the height. How am I supposed to figure out the other dimensions? And why on earth did they include the dimensions of the rug? What does that have to do with anything. Well, I guess it must have something to do with the problem because they never give information that isn't used for something (unlike real life LOL). Now how can I get those other dimensions from the dimensions of the rug?

 

Ok - next question - do you have wall to wall carpet? We don't. We have wood floors and area rugs. My children would have TOTALLY balked at this question unless it was specified that the rug was wall-to-wall. They would have easily seen what they were meant to do, but they would have refused to do it and stormed off saying the book was really badly written because in their experience, rugs' dimensions have nothing whatsoever to do with the dimensions of walls except that walls' bottom dimensions are likely to be larger than rugs. Even that assumption would have caused my youngest to choke. Nothing like having literal children with imaginations. It is a deadly combination when faced with a textbook.

 

You probably tried these things, but just in case...

 

I think I would have stormed off myself if faced with half an hour and numerous demonstrations and no comprehension, considering how simple the problem was. Ug indeed. By the time we got to those sorts of problems, both my children and I could draw in 3D. I never realized before now how handy that skill is for learning geometry. It is fairly simple to learn how to draw a 3D box. I'll try to find you an online demo if you like. It might save some aggravation to learn.

 

Hugs

Nan

[creekland]

Ok, there was a geometry problem that was fairly easy. It gave the dimensions of the carpet and then the height of the room. It asked him for how many rolls of wallpaper he needed. He couldn't get it... I tried to get him to draw it on paper, ( I cannot draw 3 dimensionally.) Then I took him into the living room and asked him what information he was given and to show me in our living room. Well, that ended in his storming off to his room. Saying, "Mom, I just can't get math. I'm just stupid. I can't get it!" So I let him cool off while I cut out pieces of the information out of paper. I had him put it together and then had him figure it out. He finally could.. But good grief. He needs to get this... 30 minutes on one problem is killing us.

 

Christine

 

:grouphug:

 

I have plenty of kids in school who feel similarly. One thing that helps is I try to get them over their "block" and frustration by using humor. With a comment like your son's, I would have said something to the effect of (note that this would have been sort of private, not at all in front of the whole class - and in a humorous tone):

 

"Stupid, huh? Well even 'stupid' people might need to wallpaper a living room if their future wife wants it done, so let's work through it together. Besides, personally, I don't think you're 'stupid.' You might be a little slower to pick up on math, but there's no crime in that. We just have to work to train those brain neurons! Remember, absolutely no one jumps out of the cradle as a toddler knowing how to do these things. Everyone has to learn sometime!"

 

Then I would have them show me EXACTLY where in the problem they are getting stuck. Is it the rug dimensions? Is it figuring out surface area? Is it the overall concept? Then we'd start there and I'd be letting him lead in the problem. As soon as he didn't "get it" or got something incorrect - right at that spot - I'd have him reconsider that perhaps offering hints.

 

The humor breaks up their "woe is me" thought process quite nicely and gets them willing to start again. Whether it will work as well for a mom vs a teacher I can't say. That will depend on your son. It's worth a try.

 

:grouphug:

 

FWIW, my oldest wasn't fond of Chalkdust for Calculus and neither was middle son when he looked at the lectures. Middle son loves Thinkwell. I think Thinkwell has Geometry and it's in a lecture format with some humor in it. Perhaps it's worth checking out online?

[choirfarm]

My thoughts are in bold.

:grouphug:

 

I have plenty of kids in school who feel similarly. One thing that helps is I try to get them over their "block" and frustration by using humor.Yes, I'm sure it would and it does as this is my funny kid. He imitates Tim Hawkins ALL the time. All of his co-op teachers and SS teachers talk about what a quick wit he is. Humor would probably be better than , "You are not stupid, you just give up too easily. You have to use that brain of yours...dust off the cobwebs!"

"Stupid, huh? Well even 'stupid' people might need to wallpaper a living room if their future wife wants it done, so let's work through it together. Besides, personally, I don't think you're 'stupid.' You might be a little slower to pick up on math, but there's no crime in that. We just have to work to train those brain neurons! Remember, absolutely no one jumps out of the cradle as a toddler knowing how to do these things. Everyone has to learn sometime!"

 

Then I would have them show me EXACTLY where in the problem they are getting stuck. Is it the rug dimensions? Is it figuring out surface area? Is it the overall concept? Then we'd start there and I'd be letting him lead in the problem. As soon as he didn't "get it" or got something incorrect - right at that spot - I'd have him reconsider that perhaps offering hints.

His big problem was that he couldn't figure out how he was supposed to find the dimensions of the walls. First I tried words and asking him what the dimensions of the rug meant. Then we walked into the living room and I said, " so how long is this part of the rug...he told me then I asked him what the heighth of the room was..he told me.. so you know. "No I don't. You aren't making any sense. Where are you getting these numbers??? " I told him to look at the problem...what was the size of the rug? He told me.. Show me where it is in the room... He showed me.. "But that has nothing to do with the wall, mom" At that point he stormed off.

 

That is when I went and cut it out of paper substituting cm for feet. I then taped it together and went into his room. I had him label my diagram. He grinned and finally got it. He had no trouble doing the problem once he knew what the dimensions of the walls were, though I bet without the diagram he would have just added 2 walls together instead of 4.

The humor breaks up their "woe is me" thought process quite nicely and gets them willing to start again. Whether it will work as well for a mom vs a teacher I can't say. That will depend on your son. It's worth a try.

 

:grouphug:

 

FWIW, my oldest wasn't fond of Chalkdust for Calculus and neither was middle son when he looked at the lectures. Middle son loves Thinkwell. I think Thinkwell has Geometry and it's in a lecture format with some humor in it. Perhaps it's worth checking out onlineI just keep flip flopping and hate to change again. He really likes Dana Mosely... ?

[creekland]

His big problem was that he couldn't figure out how he was supposed to find the dimensions of the walls. First I tried words and asking him what the dimensions of the rug meant. Then we walked into the living room and I said, " so how long is this part of the rug...he told me then I asked him what the heighth of the room was..he told me.. so you know. "No I don't. You aren't making any sense. Where are you getting these numbers??? " I told him to look at the problem...what was the size of the rug? He told me.. Show me where it is in the room... He showed me.. "But that has nothing to do with the wall, mom" At that point he stormed off.

 

That is when I went and cut it out of paper substituting cm for feet. I then taped it together and went into his room. I had him label my diagram. He grinned and finally got it. He had no trouble doing the problem once he knew what the dimensions of the walls were, though I bet without the diagram he would have just added 2 walls together instead of 4.

 

Ok, what I'm "seeing" (through your words) is a student who is merely frustrated due to math not coming easily to him. Other subjects probably do come easily, so the human impulse is to want to give up. It's common. And it CAN be overcome, but it needs a delicate touch and plenty of patience (sounds fun, right?).

 

I wouldn't change programs again if he loves the instructor. I would go very slowly, because it's more important to understand and gain confidence than it is to finish on time. Always try to keep things humorous and "blame" the "problem" on training the brain (blame is a strong word though - find a lighter synonym if you can). He'll get more frustrated if he thinks everyone else can get something easily and he can't. He'll start to work if he sees positive progress with NO (or little) pressure. You don't want to condemn anything he tries that is wrong (by sighs, frustrated looks, etc), but you do want to keep encouraging him to try and not "stop" with a wrong effort. Remind him that NO ONE knows these things from toddlerhood - all have to learn them at some point. Hints are allowed and encouraged (as you did with the paper dimensions). Always end on something positive even if it's a review of things he already knew.

 

He could very likely get to the point where the brain is trained and it all "clicks." (This happened with my youngest.) Or, math may remain difficult for him, but he ought to understand some main concepts as he's learning them. Either way, it's a win. Giving up and/or hating math is a loss (as you know). More pressure = more frustration. Working together gently with no condemnation and some occasional breakthroughs (like with that last problem) will help. Success can build success.

 

Keep venting on here (or elsewhere) and keep math positive for him. :grouphug:

 

Sorry this is possibly blunt. I'm actually trying to be encouraging... (perhaps unsuccessfully - English is NOT my forte!) Sometimes when we (humans) see things easily it's harder to grasp those who don't and to get exasperated (especially as parents looking at SAT/ACT math down the road). Your main key is to keep that exasperation from him so he doesn't get further frustrated when he picks up on it. Take note and praise the successes, but not so much that he gets suspicious. ;) Good luck. :grouphug:

 

I really do wish you and I lived closer together!!! We'd be trading English and Math - like - yesterday, or yesteryear!

[choirfarm]

Ok, what I'm "seeing" (through your words) is a student who is merely frustrated due to math not coming easily to him. Other subjects probably do come easily, so the human impulse is to want to give up. It's common. And it CAN be overcome, but it needs a delicate touch and plenty of patience (sounds fun, right?).

He'll get more frustrated if he thinks everyone else can get something easily and he can't. He'll start to work if he sees positive progress with NO (or little) pressure. You don't want to condemn anything he tries that is wrong (by sighs, frustrated looks, etc), but you do want to keep encouraging him to try and not "stop" with a wrong effort. Remind him that NO ONE knows these things from toddlerhood - all have to learn them at some point. Hints are allowed and encouraged (as you did with the paper dimensions). Always end on something positive even if it's a review of things he already knew.

 

Sorry this is possibly blunt. I'm actually trying to be encouraging... (perhaps unsuccessfully - English is NOT my forte!) Sometimes when we (humans) see things easily it's harder to grasp those who don't and to get exasperated (especially as parents looking at SAT/ACT math down the road). Your main key is to keep that exasperation from him so he doesn't get further frustrated when he picks up on it. Take note and praise the successes, but not so much that he gets suspicious. ;) Good luck. :grouphug:

 

I really do wish you and I lived closer together!!! We'd be trading English and Math - like - yesterday, or yesteryear!

 

Great advice. Yes, he thinks he is stupid at math because his brother gets it so easily. He rarely struggles. He is flying through precalc and enjoying it. When he was younger he learned his multiplication tables VERY easily...as in i never worked with him. He just knew them. He tells his brother all the time, "You are smarter than me at math. I know I'm stupid in math, but I'm smarter than you at other things!" He's keeping up with him in Spanish ( older brother gets high A, he gets low A). He's been a little bit slower to catch on in APGov...but actually beat him in a quiz the other week. This week he only missed one more. Now the essays.... But older brother has already had 1 AP class before, and so he understands and knows the drill.

 

I will keep it positive and try not to panic about the SAT/ACT. It just feels like we are running out of time, but he definitely thrives on positive praise. I'll work on that.

 

Christine

[creekland]

Great advice. Yes, he thinks he is stupid at math because his brother gets it so easily. He rarely struggles. He is flying through precalc and enjoying it. When he was younger he learned his multiplication tables VERY easily...as in i never worked with him. He just knew them. He tells his brother all the time, "You are smarter than me at math. I know I'm stupid in math, but I'm smarter than you at other things!" He's keeping up with him in Spanish ( older brother gets high A, he gets low A). He's been a little bit slower to catch on in APGov...but actually beat him in a quiz the other week. This week he only missed one more. Now the essays.... But older brother has already had 1 AP class before, and so he understands and knows the drill.

 

I will keep it positive and try not to panic about the SAT/ACT. It just feels like we are running out of time, but he definitely thrives on positive praise. I'll work on that.

 

Christine

 

My youngest has had to grow up in my middle son's shadow. It's very difficult for him and for me as his parent/teacher. Since we're Christian (and I know you are), I've also had some deep conversations with youngest about how God created both him and middle son for exactly the positions He wants them in. Middle son wants to be a doctor and NEEDS to score high and memorize things accurately and quickly. Youngest son wants Ethnobotany and has no problems seeing the smallest details in plants and other Bio types of things. Both are perfectly created for their niche.

 

It's our society that places "value" on the various niches and assigns one a higher value than another. It's the college testing that claims English/Math are more valued than Bio. In real life and God's eyes (and mine), they will have the best life if they are in their niche.

 

However, I still mention to him that he has to do the best he can - and that will require some work. It's been helpful taking him along on college visits and letting him meet other Bio people. He listened better (or took it to heart better) when they told him the same thing about doing the best he can in other subjects. He sees what he can experience - if he can work hard enough to get in.

 

He doesn't have to - and perhaps can't - match middle son, but he can be the best youngest son he can be.

 

BUT, we know we'll also probably be paying more for him to go to college and are preparing for that. Helping youngest understand our reality isn't that difficult compared to convincing scholarship and merit aid folks that Bio is just as important as the SAT/ACT. Nonetheless, one can't fit a Bio peg into a Math hole as easily as a Math peg fits in. One can only do their best, then trust that God will provide (and we parents will do what we can too).