Help with Math Issues

[zenjenn]

DD age 9 is mildly/moderately dyslexic. She understands new math concepts and processes and can perform them quickly and accurately, but has a really difficult time with "mental math" operations. I'm talking *really simple* operations.

 

Some of is clearly related to dyslexia. For example, if I say "6+1" out of the blue, there's about a 30% chance she'll answer "5... wait, WAIT, 7!" She DEFINITELY knows the difference between "plus" and "minus", but her brain scrambles if caught unawares, and doesn't know "which way" to go.

 

Something like "What is 60-59" makes her brain melt. I have to hand-hold her through it. I can walk her through it and remind her that anything subtracted from a number 1 greater than it is always one, and then she can do that - and even easily extrapolate that to numbers 2 or 3 greater than that. But then she forgets and we have to start all over again.

 

If it is written down, she has no problem. :confused:

 

I just got some Cuisenaire rods and have started working with them, along with an "Allowance" math game she and her sister enjoy that has the kids handle money.

 

Wondering if there are any other suggestions to help her internalize and retain how to perform these simple mental math operations without her getting confused and turned around.

 

This is all made worse by the fact that her 6 yr old sister is very mathematically oriented and can do this kind of thing without even thinking about it.

[peacefully]

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[zenjenn]

But eventually, just to function in real life, you have to be able to process simple math mentally. I am not holding her back in progressing through math academically, and when it comes to her math assignments I absolutely let her use visual cues (and in fact, switched her to Teaching Textbooks for that very reason.)

 

My question relates to ideas as far as what I can do on the side to help her "get there" in terms of being able to perform simple math operations mentally, without visual aids, so that she can be functional with math in a simple, conversant, day-to-day way, kwim?

 

And the fact that she has a problem with this is not lost on her. It is embarrassing to her when this comes up with peers. (Spelling issues, too, although I feel more confident with her progress right now when it comes to spelling.)

Edited September 27, 2011 by zenjenn

[peacefully]

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[PeterPan]

One, she doesn't have a problem. The question has a problem and the scenario it's given under has a problem. You could restructure that situation a number of different ways and TOTALLY ELIMINATE those issues as problems.

 

Two, she doesn't know the answers, which is why she guesses. It takes a LOT longer for these kids to cement facts than we (regular people) would like to think, and the sooner you conclude that and stop expecting it on the fly, on the cuff, in that tension-creating scenario, the sooner you eliminate it as a problem. Give her some tools she can use successfully so that any question you ask her is something she CAN answer. Don't set her up for defeat. Personally, I would give her an abacus for the math you're talking about. Cuisinaire rods still aren't visualizable and manipulatable, because they are fixed quantities. With beads you can manipulate them in your mind. I say that, but then who knows. But I'm saying give her the manips and let her do it with the manips until it's so visualized in her mind that she no longer needs them. SHE stops using them when SHE is ready. Same for a math table. For that age, I'd do either a small amount of drill or a math game each day to drip drip the math, then I'd let her use an addition table. She can start each week with a blank one, fill it out, then have it the whole week. As long as she understands how it works, she's fine to use it. After a while, stop having her fill it out and just put it in a page protector.

 

Three, she is in TT4 and she's a 3rd grader? I know TT gets slammed, but, honestly, given the troubles you're describing, I personally would pause and spend some time, however long it takes, doing lots of REAL math. Do math with an abacus (LOVE RightStart, especially level B, which she would totally benefit from), Kitchen Table Math, that sort of thing. By the later grades, TT pans out in the wash. It's good at least to be on grade level with it, but I DON'T think you need to feel compelled to keep her a grade ahead.

 

She may need more practice than TT provides. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you gave her a placement test for CLE. I wouldn't hesitate to go *back* a grade level (or more) in another curriculum, let her have that chance to repeat and do more familiar material, let things solidify. I can't tell you how many times I want back with my dd on things (math, spelling, blah blah). I'm just shaking my head hear, drowning in the memory. I know it doesn't make sense to us--we taught them and they know it, right? But it doesn't work that way. We back up, they do easier material, and they go "Oh my lands, I'm a genius!" Then suddenly things improve. Or they just needed to see it afresh.

 

And tell me, cuz I'm just trying to figure this out. Given the propensity to reversals in dyslexics, are you at all concerned about having her read one direction in Hebrew and English in another and do her math still in a third direction (vertical)? LOL Sorry, that's utterly none of my business. I just wonder every time I see your sig.

 

Math is hard to figure out. Change the scenario and make the goal that she gets to use whatever she needs to be successful. Success breeds success with these kids. You really want it. Sometimes it means breaking all the rules (rules about not jumping, rules about not letting them use certain things, rules about something being too easy and how you need to be draconian and move forward). I would rather have someone who has completed RS B and C and *GETS* it, because they then have a foundation that could fly. But if someone goes forward, doesn't really understand anything, and doesn't really visualize the math or how it fits together, they stumble more and more. You want them to visualize every step correctly.

 

Well whatever. I get on these tangents. :)

[peacefully]

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[PeterPan]

OhElizabeth, I, for one, really value your tangents! Especially this:

 

 

You said it, sister!! :D

 

Did you catch the part where the OP said that if it is written down, she has no problem? That's why this doesn't seem like a math issue to me. I'm a big fan of manipulatives for math (HUGE), but this time, I'm wondering if visualizing the quantities/processes are the issue, or if hearing the problem in an unscrambled way is the root of the mental math difficulties.

 

Zenjenn, if your dd sees the problem written out, can she do the operation mentally and say the answer? Or does she have to see and write the answer out?

 

You know, I think I saw that, and I was so distracted in my mind sorting through that Hebrew and the three directions at once that I couldn't decide what to think. I do know sometimes the thing we *think* is the problem isn't the problem. And I know sometimes the way we describe our situation presents how we view it and doesn't necessarily mean we've parsed through every aspect of it systematically, scientifically, analytically. And so I totally agree with you she should see how the same task goes over different ways. And yes, when you add that language component on top of everything else, sometimes you just get this pushing, guessing. It's too many steps in the process. Then you start looking at whether it happens with ALL language-output tasks or only when the working memory component is added or only when it's math or... And I go back to my thing that sometimes it's as simple as the kid not REALLY knowing it quite as well as we wish they did or think they should based on our marvelous teaching.

 

Which takes me back to my point. Sometimes when you BACK UP, you give them a chance to fix ANY of those issues that were holes. If her working memory and language output ability haven't kept up, then going back gives her a chance to do it with easier math. It would be just like backing up in WWE or anything else. If the problem is bilaterality and needing more time to make pathways, they need that practice in ways they can actually handle. The pathways get made when they are HAPPY and making endorphins. No endorphins, enter stress, NO pathways, no connections, no sticking. So you have to back up or RE-DO a different way to give her that chance to make whatever connections were missing, no matter what category they're in.

 

BTW, I'm not saying remedial. I'm saying different. Like word problems. Dyslexics can be killer at word problems and have better retention to boot. What about going back and doing SM CWP 1? That would make her feel better (rip the cover off, obviously), and it would play to her strength. I have found math (facts, anything) stick MUCH BETTER for my dd in a story context. It's a dyslexia thing. It's why they're so stinkin' good at history. You roll with it and see what happens, see what opens up in their brains. That's why that Kitchen Table Math is so brilliant (or at least the idea of it, I haven't bought it yet), because it puts the math in a CONTEXT. Everyone benefits from context, but dyslexics especially do.

 

Night-night. :)

[zenjenn]

Yes, she can see it written down no problem. She is performing fine with TT4 with no problems. I had her take the 2nd grade SAT at the end of last year and she scored in the 70th percentile for mathematics.

 

You pose an interesting question about whether she would be able to work the same problem mentally if she saw it written down, without writing out the solution herself. I've never consciously tried to make that observation before. (But now, certainly, I will.)

 

We are doing Math Rider and Xtra Math right now to work on cementing facts, and she's making slow but steady progress.

 

Your question about the Hebrew, yes, it has occurred to me, and I put off Hebrew for a while because of it. We are Jewish, so learning to read Hebrew does have a religious purpose, not just an academic one. We just started regular Hebrew study this year, and it has actually made a huge POSITIVE impact on her phoneme awareness in English. She masks her dyslexia heavily reading based on context. When a book is of interest to her, she can read far more complicated text than she "should" be able to purely based on context - to the point of even surprising the dyslexia specialist we had her see.

 

We are studying Hebrew for liturgical purposes, unrelated to vocabulary or grammar. She must assign a phonetic sound to a Hebrew letter and she must read it independent of (almost) any context. I have seen a direct correlation in her ability to decode English when reading orally. Things like unfamiliar proper names that she used to gloss over - which were before no-context words in a sea of contextual text - she will now decode phonetically. In writing, her letter frequency of letter inversions (writing "no" instead of "on") has dropped dramatically since starting Hebrew too. Whether there's a causative relationship there, I don't know, but there it is.

 

And, by the way (and this is really crazy) I am learning Hebrew along with her (I never learned it as part of my education). Sometimes - not always, but definitely sometimes - she can decode Hebrew faster than I can!

 

I'll also add that my husband is also dyslexic, and had similar struggles with arithmetic in elementary school. However, he excelled in algebra and beyond (and is now a physicist and engineer). He did, however, continue to be haunted by these glitches in his ability to compute basic numbers, until ultimately as a MUCH older student he had to really work to overcome those things consciously, in order to reach his goals. In some academic cases, with calculator use, it didn't matter, but once he was working in the field came up more and more. But still to this day he keeps everything as variables until he is absolutely forced to input numbers. I gravitated towards the rods because they seem like an abstraction to me that she might relate to, if her brain processes are similar to her father's.

 

I'm actually thinking of dumping all the rods, games, other manipulatives, books, etc on his lap and have HIM work with her.

Edited September 28, 2011 by zenjenn

[PeterPan]

Well that is just utterly fascinating! Like I said, that had me curious. That's just marvelous to hear. I don't think it's nuts at all, the way you describe it. It's almost like it forced her to deal with the CONCEPT of sound to written correlation, independent of clues, etc. Same thing a new way. Well very interesting.

[Jay3fer]

Old thread, I know, but this caught my eye: "eventually, just to function in real life, you have to be able to process simple math mentally."

 

Yup, and eventually, you'll want her to marry and have babies... but she doesn't have to do it tomorrow, right? It IS a cold, cruel world out there, and she will be ready when she's ready. Same with math. :-)

 

Keep at it with the rods in the meantime. Do you have the Idea Book(s)?

I'd suggest backing off the overt mental math and just let her play with it a bit. The Idea Book is good for that.

 

You can also work with measuring / weighing / pouring tasks, albeit on a level appropriate for her age, with liquids or small beans / split peas. Let her show your younger one how it's done. :-)

 

Also, what about cooking? My dd and I doubled a recipe together last week. "If the recipe says 2 eggs, but I want to make TWO cakes, how many eggs will you take out?" If she can't do it in her head, set up TWO mixing bowls for her - put everything for one cake in one, everything for the other in the other.

 

Don't force her to work it out in her head if it's hard... just let her see it, feel it, TASTE it!

 

Oh - and about the Hebrew/English thing - from a mama who's had 3 out of 4 kids learn Hebrew and English simultaneously:

 

My dd6 had a LOT of reversals last year - it was driving me crazy and yes, I did think dyslexia except it was perfectly backwards. I do believe it was related to introducing Hebrew around the same time as English. BUT... she sorted it all out mostly on her own. I credit HWOT in part, because it's structured to prevent reversals, but even in schools and even with special needs and dyslexia, I don't know many Jewish educators who would suggest removing Hebrew; I think most just sit back and let kids work it out in their own way.

 

(my youngest ds-almost-4 started reading English on his own and I haven't started any Hebrew yet, so we'll see how that goes...)