Does anyone know/teach Dvorak instead of Qwerty?

[Greta]

Dvorak just makes so much more sense, I'm wondering about teaching it to my dd. Since computers can easily switch b/t the two, I'm thinking it's not generally going to be a problem that she doesn't know the "standard" system. But am I wrong? Anyone have experience with Dvorak? Thoughts to share?

[G5052]

The querty keyboard is virtually universal outside of a few people who use it at home or have their own businesses and can choose. If you go work for someone else or need to use a computer at a college/library/friend's house, it's more than 99% percent sure that it will be a querty. Learning two types of keyboards would be too much for most folks...

 

Being a long-term techie with a constant level of tendonitis in my hands, I wish the the Dvorak was more universal, but they're extremely rare still. I only know one person who uses one and he has his own business and works from home. I work part-time as a computer science professor, and it just wouldn't be at all practical for me because I have to use college computers to teach, input grades, etc.

[KAR120C]

Is that it might be really hard to switch if she gets good at Dvorak and later wishes she could do Qwerty.

[Greta]

Being a long-term techie with a constant level of tendonitis in my hands, I wish the the Dvorak was more universal, but they're extremely rare still. I only know one person who uses one and he has his own business and works from home. I work part-time as a computer science professor, and it just wouldn't be at all practical for me because I have to use college computers to teach, input grades, etc.

 

Okay, maybe I've misunderstood the availability of the Dvorak format. On my Mac it is super quick and easy for me to switch back and forth from Dvorak to Qwerty and vice versa any time I want to. It takes less than 10 seconds. I thought all modern computers were like this! I know that if she's going to the library and wants to use their computers to find the location of a book, she'll have to hunt and peck. But in the work environment, I thought she'd be able to easily change the setting on her computer. So the keyboard would obviously still look qwerty, but she would know the keystrokes for Dvorak and the computer would be able to interpret them that way. Did that make any sense?

[Greta]

Right, that's basically my concern too. If she decided she needed to know qwerty because it is so commonly used, then she'd be at a disadvantage because it's harder to relearn a system than it is to learn it initially.

[G5052]

but many employers do not allow such configuration changes because it makes it harder to manage all their systems. At the college where I teach, a student is welcome to switch to the Dvorak keyboard arrangement in the computer labs, but all of the computers accessible to students go back to a standard configuration when they're turned off. Some of the compters in very public areas completely block such changes.

 

For me at least, it's just altogether too complicated!

[Greta]

Ah, I see. I'll definitely take that into consideration!

[TengoFive]

I've used DVORAK in the past and really, really like it. However, I switched back since no one else could use it. I didn't get a DVORAK keyboard, just glued the stickers on my keyboard. I used a really good dvorak tutor website, but I don't remember exactly what it is. I'll try to find it and edit my post.

I got up to speed pretty quick, so I don't see why learning dvorak first would be any different. She can just learn QWERTY later.

[Greta]

Thanks Victoria! I've found a couple of online Dvorak tutors, but if you happen to remember which one it was that you had success with, I would be curious to know.

 

Thanks!

[Reya]

The querty keyboard is virtually universal outside of a few people who use it at home or have their own businesses and can choose. If you go work for someone else or need to use a computer at a college/library/friend's house, it's more than 99% percent sure that it will be a querty. Learning two types of keyboards would be too much for most folks...

 

Being a long-term techie with a constant level of tendonitis in my hands, I wish the the Dvorak was more universal, but they're extremely rare still. I only know one person who uses one and he has his own business and works from home. I work part-time as a computer science professor, and it just wouldn't be at all practical for me because I have to use college computers to teach, input grades, etc.

 

The setting is not in most KEYBOARDs but is a part of almost all modern operating systems--all you have to do is go to the settings menu and switch it over (whatever the interface is for your OS). If a child learns to touch-type, he can use Dvorak with just about any computer. It's worth it for the speend and risk of injust trade off!

[mom2abcd]

http://www.tenthumbstypingtutor.com/index.php?language=en

 

Ten Thumb Typing Tutor

 

Matthew McNatt of McNatt Learning Center recommends this.

 

He likes this better than Mavis Beacon. It’s a wonderful way to learn to type.

 

There are two keyboards out:

Qwerty and Dvorak. There’s a big difference. Standard keyboards have Qwerty.

 

With Qwerty, 95 words per minute is about the limit. With Dvorak there’s no ceiling. 130 wpm is possible.

 

Windows 95 and later have both keyboards built in. It takes him 20 seconds to set to Dvorak.

 

He recommends Dvorak for some…..

 

Keyboard used to be abcd… when manual typewriters were new. Then people were able to type so fast that the keys would get jammed. So they made a new keyboard layout which is now standard, where people wouldn’t type so fast. With computers, speed is no longer an issue.

 

Dvorak has vowels on one home row. It’s more efficient.

 

All Macs have Dvorak.

 

You can learn Dvorak faster. (It’s possible to type 5000 words without leaving the home row.)

 

Dvorak minimizes the risk of carpal tunnel since there isn’t as much movement…

 

The disadvantage of Dvorak is you couldn’t look at the keyboard (which would have Qwerty). They do make overlays.

 

If a kid junior high age hasn’t learned to type and loves fixing computers, he wouldn’t recommend Dvorak. Really into hardware…….

 

$25-$35

 

Free downloads

http://www.xworlds.com/

 

http://www.kidsdomain.com/down/mac/tenthumbs.html

http://www.atpm.com/9.05/tttt.shtml

 

http://netforbeginners.about.com/od/computerbeginnerhandbook/fr/10thumbsreview.htm

[clwcain]

Most employers will disable the permission to do things like switch the keyboard map.

 

All the typing tests that your child will be expected to take if entering the workforce through clerical skills will be QWERTY.

 

I'd never heard of Dvorak until this thread, so I can't offer any suggestions for moving back and forth.

 

I find QWERTY perfectly logical and painfully simple.

 

Just my $0.02, fwiw. YMMV

[Greta]

Thanks! I can't wait to check out these links.

[Reya]

 

I find QWERTY perfectly logical and painfully simple.

 

 

 

I really am curious here. How can QWERTY be logical and simple when it was developed to be difficult to use in order to keep people from jamming early typewriters? What logic do you see in it?

[clwcain]

I really am curious here. How can QWERTY be logical and simple when it was developed to be difficult to use in order to keep people from jamming early typewriters? What logic do you see in it?

 

This is the first time that I have heard that story of the development of QWERTY. I don't find it believable.

 

It's all I've every used since I learned to type. The keys are laid out by frequency of use on three tiers with numbers at the top. That makes sense to me. I've never had a problem typing with a QWERTY keyboard whether on a typewriter or on a computer keyboard.

 

My only complaint, easily resolved on modern expanded computer keyboards, is the need for 10-key in doing my job.

 

I can't imagine a "better" system, and I'll admit I find the idea of putting all the vowels on one row baffling. I'll happily do some research, but I don't see myself changing, nor do I see teaching my kids anything other than QWERTY.

 

Question from a previous comment? How can Dvorak be any different from QWERTY with regard to carpal tunnel/repetitive stress injuries? Typing is typing, right? You still move the muscles and tendons of the hands at high speed repeatedly. What am I missing?

[Greta]

Question from a previous comment? How can Dvorak be any different from QWERTY with regard to carpal tunnel/repetitive stress injuries? Typing is typing, right? You still move the muscles and tendons of the hands at high speed repeatedly. What am I missing?

 

The difference is that with Dvorak, you don't have to move them as much. 70% of the typing is all done on the home row, so there's much much less reaching out and movement of the fingers. I would imagine that repetitive stress injury is still a risk, because it has to do with how long you're typing every day, how many breaks you take, and I'm sure lots of other factors as well. But I believe that's the basis for the claim, just fyi.

[Greta]

I can't imagine a "better" system, and I'll admit I find the idea of putting all the vowels on one row baffling. I'll happily do some research, but I don't see myself changing, nor do I see teaching my kids anything other than QWERTY.

 

 

Thought you might be interested in this summary, from the Wikipedia article about Dvorak:

 

The Dvorak layout was designed to address the problems of inefficiency and fatigue which characterized the QWERTY keyboard layout. The QWERTY layout was introduced in the 1860s, being used on the first commercially-successful typewriter, the machine invented by Christopher Sholes. The QWERTY layout was designed so that successive keystrokes would alternate between sides of the keyboard so as to avoid jams. Improvements in typewriter design made key jams less of a problem, but the introduction of the electric typewriter in the 1930s made typist fatigue more of a problem. This caused an increase in interest in the Dvorak layout.[citation needed]

Dvorak studied letter frequencies and the physiology of people's hands and created a layout to adhere to these principles:

 

• Letters should be typed by alternating between hands.

• For maximum speed and efficiency, the most common letters and digraphs should be the easiest to type. This means that they should be on the home row, which is where the fingers rest, and under the strongest fingers.

• The least common letters should be on the bottom row, which is the hardest row to reach.

• The right hand should do more of the typing, because most people are right-handed.

• Digraphs should not be typed with adjacent fingers.

• Stroking should generally move from the edges of the board to the middle. An observation of this principle is that, for many people, when tapping fingers on a table, it is easier going from little finger to index than vice versa. This motion on a keyboard is called inboard stroke flow.[3]

 

[clwcain]

Thanks. It seems that, reading through the Wikipedia articles on both keyboards, there are no demonstrated advantages to Dvorak.

 

Looking at the Dvorak layouts, they don't seem to make any sense to me.

 

I do know that I had no problem using the European variations on QWERTY when I lived in Europe, and I see the note that Dvorak really only works with American English on the Latin alphabet.

 

I'll stick with QWERTY, but thanks for helping me learn something today. :D

[Greta]

Thanks. It seems that, reading through the Wikipedia articles on both keyboards, there are no demonstrated advantages to Dvorak.

 

I get the impression that some studies say Dvorak is better, some say it isn't, so I don't know what to think about that. The main thing that got me thinking about it is a friend who switched and said that she loves it. She finds it much more comfortable to use, and said she can type a lot faster now. But this is anecdotal of course, and there doesn't seem to be much hard evidence.

 

I'll stick with QWERTY, but thanks for helping me learn something today. :D

 

Sure! :001_smile: I still haven't decided what I should do. :confused: Maybe I'll experiment with learning Dvorak myself first, and then if I think it's better, I'll teach it to my dd. If it isn't noticeably better though, then there doesn't seem to be any reason to teach her something non-standard.

[Spinning]

I type using the Dvorak layout--it's very easy to switch the keyboard layout in Windows.

 

As far as why I do: I've never been a good typist--I tried a couple of programs (using Querty) and only got up to about 25-30 word per minute. Sad, eh?! Anyway, I really had nothing to lose so I gave Dvorak a shot. I'm still no stellar typist, but my speed and accuracy has improved. Within a month of switching to Dvorak, I was where I was with Querty (25-30 WPM). I haven't checked my typing speed lately, but I work from home as a medical transcriptionist and so I'm pretty fast now. Another reason I switched was because I was a cake decorator for 12 years and then after having kids decided to do school for MT. My left wrist really took a beating being a cake decorator and it was well worth it for me to try something to prevent further carpal tunnel...while choosing a career of 'typing'. I did not get a Dvorak keyboard or the stickers--and I found that it made it much easier for me to learn the keyboard more quickly typing 'blind', simply because even if I looked at the keyboard it would still be wrong--if that makes sense.

 

I do agree with everyone else that it can be a problem because it is not universal. I have all my family's computers set up so I can switch to Dvorak easily--and no one can use my desktop or laptop (which is a plus!). :D

[Greta]

Thanks for your perspective! It only took you a month to get back up to the speed you had with QWERTY? Wow, that seems pretty fast. I've been putting off making the switch myself because it seems like it would be sooooo hard. Maybe I need to just take the plunge. A month isn't that much to sacrifice!

[Spinning]

Yeah--I decided I wanted to try MT, but I needed to get my typing speed up. I tried a couple of different programs and after a couple of months, I really had not improved dramatically with Querty. I did some research on Dvorak and it made sence to give it a shot in my position and I was pretty motivated. I wanted to start school in January, so in November I switched to Dvorak and within a month I was typing 25-30 wpm and it just went up from there. Like I said, I haven't tested myself lately, but I'm sure I'm over 60 (still not stellar, but decent). I read somewhere that the fastist typist in the world uses Dvorak layout, maybe it was in Guinesses World Record?

 

If I typed decently in Querty, I probably would have never made the switch--but again, I really had nothing to lose, lol! BTW--I didn't buy a special program to type Dvorak. I printed the keyboard layout from an online source and just keep using the same typing programs--I actually downloaded a good freebie from downloads.com and then bought Typer Shark--but I cont'd to use them...just in Dvorak. Really, tho, if I were typing decently I probably would not make the switch, but it has been a good switch for me.

[Greta]

Thanks for elaborating. It's great to talk to someone who has actually btdt. I was pretty good with qwerty back when I was taking typing classes in high school. I was typically in the 70's. But I couldn't maintain that for very long, certainly not with any accuracy. That's my main problem -- it's not that I can't type fast, it's that I make a lot of mistakes. I hit the backspace key many more times than any decent typist should! And I wonder if I would be more accurate with Dvorak since there's less weird movements that your fingers have to do. Also, mostly just wondering about it for my dd's sake. Well, I'm just rambling now but wanted to thank you for your help. Oh, and I read about that world record too -- it was over 200wpm! Pretty amazing!

[Reya]

This is the first time that I have heard that story of the development of QWERTY. I don't find it believable.

 

I've known this for at least fifteen years.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qwert

 

 

The keys are laid out by frequency of use

 

Yes--to SEPARATE them so that they are the greatest reach across the keyboard!

 

 

I've never had a problem typing with a QWERTY keyboard whether on a typewriter or on a computer keyboard.

 

So you can achieve Dvorak speeds, then? Unless you've grown extra digits, you can't. It's not physically possible. So by my definition, you would have a "problem!"

 

 

I can't imagine a "better" system, and I'll admit I find the idea of putting all the vowels on one row baffling.

Why, exactly? I think it's one of the most sensible things about the Dvorak keyboard because of the nature of vowels in human language.

 

Question from a previous comment? How can Dvorak be any different from QWERTY with regard to carpal tunnel/repetitive stress injuries? Typing is typing, right? You still move the muscles and tendons of the hands at high speed repeatedly. What am I missing?

 

You're missing ergonomics. You're missing reach. Some movements are easier on the hands than others. Pressing straight down, for instance, is the easiest. The more a keyboard makes you reach, the greater your chances of injury are. If you must reach to a shelf 1000 times a day, are you more likely to hurt yourself reaching to one at your chest level or one a foot above your head? Do a quick Google search on RSI and Dvorak!

 

This is why one of the top recommendations for severe repetitive stress injury sufferers who hurt themselves through keyboarding is to switch to Dvorak. Of course, chances are they could have prevented it in the first place by never using QWERTY at all. I'm going to teach my children Dvorak because I don't want them to run the risk of the complications of RSI. This kind of injury can be crippling in many modern careers. In my line of work, I know more people who have battled it than who haven't.

[Reya]

I get the impression that some studies say Dvorak is better, some say it isn't, so I don't know what to think about that. The main thing that got me thinking about it is a friend who switched and said that she loves it. She finds it much more comfortable to use, and said she can type a lot faster now. But this is anecdotal of course, and there doesn't seem to be much hard evidence.

 

 

 

Sure! :001_smile: I still haven't decided what I should do. :confused: Maybe I'll experiment with learning Dvorak myself first, and then if I think it's better, I'll teach it to my dd. If it isn't noticeably better though, then there doesn't seem to be any reason to teach her something non-standard.

 

Actually, there was a VERY well designed study by the military that were torpedoed for political reasons (having to do with the personalities of various people involved). I've read the original studies and methodologies themselves, and the criticism that were ostensibly the basis for rejecting Dvorak are incoherent at best and blatantly deceptive often enough! Try to search them out instead of just listening to someone's retelling of a retelling of an original criticism. They're worth a read for their elegant simplicity and the crystal clarity of the results. All others show similar results.

 

The world record for typing speed is around 225 on a Dvorak keyboard. The world record on a QWERTY is 180 WPM. The average competant typist can improve by 30 WPM over their QWERTY speed.

 

I have small-ish hands, and I resisted learning to type "right" in a qwerty keyboard because it causes me pain after a while. Instead of staying on the home rows, I float above the keyboard and move my hands so the most of my keystrokes have little to no reach. In this way, I've avoided the problem that so many of my friends have. However, this is at a great cost of speed and accuracy. I can type 60 WPM max, and my cruising speed is more often 45-50. I am going to eventually bite the bullet and learn Dvorak. Before I invested the month, though, I did a lot of research because I wanted to make sure it was worth it!

[Greta]

Thanks Reya! I will keep researching, but I think I'll just go ahead and experiment on myself. ;) It will mean I'll be spending a LOT less time on this board, and others, for the next month, but that's probably not a bad thing. The state of my house might actually improve. :lol: I really want to give it a try. I've always had rather thin and weak wrists which are prone to injury. Handwriting hurts me worse than typing, but anything I can do to make it more comfortable is probably a good thing. Thanks for the encouragement and the kick in the butt that I needed to just take the plunge and do it! :001_smile:

[Colleen in SEVA]

Forgive me for straying off subject, but...

 

My hubby is very anti-QWERTY. Despite having a job that requires him to type for hours per day (and geeky hobbies that require him to type until the wee hours of the morning), he has refused to learn to type the traditional way. It irritates him that modern society has allowed the standard to be set based on antiquated mechanical needs (he first learned the reasoning behind QWERTY in a product design class in college and has been whining about it ever since ha ha).

 

He is currently using the Alpha Grip -- an ergonomic keyboard much like a game controller. The guy on the demo video is typing 70 WPM while jogging on a treadmill. Talk about multi-tasking!

http://www.alphagrips.com/

[Colleen in SEVA]

http://www.alphagrips.com/typing.html

The QWERTY keyboard has not been replaced because most alternatives, such as the Dvorak keyboard, do not offer enough benefits to convince people to switch.

 

I think the conversation in this thread proves the quote correct!

:lol::lol: