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[Paisley Hedgehog]

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[peacefully]

Shari, these updates of yours are Killing. Me. I have been trying so hard to ignore these posts, because I seriously do not have one spare minute to take this class, but you are making this very hard for me.

 

I think I gotta take this class.

 

 

 

Why do you SN moms have to be so darn committed?

 

 

 

:D:D

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[peacefully]

:lol:

 

I have days when the prospect of an asylum seems lovely. A nice, quiet padded cell and someone else to do the cooking and laundry... why, it's practically a vacation! :lol:

[merry gardens]

Do all special needs moms need to be committed? :lol: Sign me up for that vacation!

 

Shari- Good idea to combine lessons for the discussion. Except, I've only finished lesson five so far.

 

From the activities in lesson five, I learned it's good that I don't live in Russia. I confirmed that I have a poor memory for sight, and I am not "naturally" good at spelling. I also missed the spelling of every word in those activities--but I spelled some of the sounds right in each word. Do I get partial credit? :D

 

I started lesson six last night, but I need to take more time to absorb it all. I couldn't take it all in in one sitting. As I've mentioned, I use Barton. Susan Barton designed her program to fit all of these things in, BUT I didn't really know how it all fit together when I started her program. (That's why I went with Barton--because I felt totally helpless and clueless about how to teach my son to read.) Since I'm buying that program level by level, I don't really know everything that will be taught in levels we haven't yet reached. We're now on level 5 (of 10) in Barton. On my own as a homeschooling mom, (apart from the O-G approach and dyslexia programs), I have added some of the work the O-G method recommends, but I did it sooner than they recommend it. I now see that I could have held off on some of the work and assignments I've taught on my own. I could have just waited until we got to it in Barton. This lesson of O-G course is giving me a better "big picture" of how it all fits together. I should hold off on buying any more school materials or making any more plans for what we'll do next until after I've finished this on-line course.

[Shay]

Well, I wrote a lengthy response to these lessons, but they apparently were lost in cyber space. I am too busy to do that again.

 

Mainly, I had asked what you all thought about the necessity of in depth phonemic awareness training prior to teaching dc to read and spell. If you will recall, the Put Reading First article we read mentioned that PA is most effectively taught using letters of the alphabet.

 

Do you feel that PA must be firmly in place before you begin to teach? Where does this put Barton level 1?

[merry gardens]

Well, I wrote a lengthy response to these lessons, but they apparently were lost in cyber space. I am too busy to do that again.

 

Mainly, I had asked what you all thought about the necessity of in depth phonemic awareness training prior to teaching dc to read and spell. If you will recall, the Put Reading First article we read mentioned that PA is most effectively taught using letters of the alphabet.

 

Do you feel that PA must be firmly in place before you begin to teach? Where does this put Barton level 1?

I haven't gone back to re-read that article, but I assumed that article spoke of "most effectively" in reference to how most people learn it. I didn't see any conflict between that statement about what's "most effective" and the first level Barton.

 

If 99 out of 100 people learn something quickest using a certain technique, then that technique may certainly be described as "more effective". For some children, the "most effective method" might not be an effective method for them personally. If only a very small percentage of children need that level of instruction, it is not "most effective" for schools to teach something that the vast majority of people don't need.

 

What is "most effective" on a large scale, does not always translate out at the individual level. I was not interested in learning how to teach phonemic awareness to the entire population of school children; I'm interested in teaching my son, who did not learn phonemic awareness they way most people learn it. My son needed a portion of the LiPS program before we could even start Barton. LiPS does use letter symbols, but portions of LiPS works exclusively with sounds and colored manipulatives, similarly to the way that Barton level 1 does. That removes any possible visual confussion and allowed us to work just with sound. My son made very little progress with reading until we did LiPS at the suggestion of Susan Barton.

 

Remember that Barton 1 is the first level of her program. The second and third level of Barton continues to work on phonemic awareness using letter symbols. There is re-inforcement of phonemic awareness as a child progresses in reading instruction, but some children need more than that before starting with letter symbols.

[LizzyBee]

Well, I wrote a lengthy response to these lessons, but they apparently were lost in cyber space. I am too busy to do that again.

 

Mainly, I had asked what you all thought about the necessity of in depth phonemic awareness training prior to teaching dc to read and spell. If you will recall, the Put Reading First article we read mentioned that PA is most effectively taught using letters of the alphabet.

 

Do you feel that PA must be firmly in place before you begin to teach? Where does this put Barton level 1?

 

Disclaimer: I haven't done lessons 5-6 yet. I am hoping to get caught up in the next week or so.

 

My 14 yo is only mildly dyslexic. Her reading was slow to take off, but she became a very strong reader whose reading and vocab are at the college level. However, spelling was a disaster. When she was in 3rd grade, we switched to SWR. She became increasingly frustrated to the point that she began pulling her hair and calling herself stupid during spelling lessons. At some point, I realized that she could only hear whole words; she couldn't hear the separate sounds. She couldn't encode sounds she couldn't hear, but at that time, I knew nothing about phonemic awareness, OG, or LiPS. I only knew that I took my dd out of public school so that I could teach her appropriately, but I didn't know how. I was doing to her exactly what the public school had done.

 

My 9 yo is severely dyslexic. By the time she was ready to start school, I had done a lot of reading and research to figure out how to help my 14 yo. This time around, I knew about phonemic awareness and curriculum for dyslexics. Even though school is HARD for this kid, she doesn't experience the same frustration as her sister because I know how to teach her. We tried some standard curriculum (Phonics Pathways, AAS, McGuffey) in hopes that she wasn't dyslexic, but she made no progress whatsoever. None. Then we did LiPS, and her PA improved to the point that we did 100EZL. Even though it was hard, she was proud of her progress. After 100EZL, she just barely passed the Barton screening, so we started Barton. The first level was very hard, but she has made steady, measurable progress with Barton. She had an APD follow up evaluation in December, and we discovered that her phonemic awareness is 100% remediated.

 

So... based on our experience, I agree with what I've read elsewhere - that phonemic awareness must be in place before beginning phonics. As for teaching it with letters, my 9 yo couldn't remember letter names or sounds until we worked on PA separately. LiPS, Barton, and Literacy Leaders all work on PA apart from letters, and these are all programs developed for kids with dyslexia/reading disabilities by different publishers. So I'd be inclined to think that kids with severe PA deficits need to work on PA separately from reading and letters.

[Guest jessroweharris]

I'm new here :) Can someone direct me to this online course if it's not too late to sign up? Thanks!

[LizzyBee]

I'm new here :) Can someone direct me to this online course if it's not too late to sign up? Thanks!

 

http://eps.schoolspecialty.com/pd/og.cfm

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[Shay]

Disclaimer: I haven't done lessons 5-6 yet. I am hoping to get caught up in the next week or so.

 

My 14 yo is only mildly dyslexic. Her reading was slow to take off, but she became a very strong reader whose reading and vocab are at the college level. However, spelling was a disaster. When she was in 3rd grade, we switched to SWR. She became increasingly frustrated to the point that she began pulling her hair and calling herself stupid during spelling lessons. At some point, I realized that she could only hear whole words; she couldn't hear the separate sounds. She couldn't encode sounds she couldn't hear, but at that time, I knew nothing about phonemic awareness, OG, or LiPS. I only knew that I took my dd out of public school so that I could teach her appropriately, but I didn't know how. I was doing to her exactly what the public school had done.

 

My 9 yo is severely dyslexic. By the time she was ready to start school, I had done a lot of reading and research to figure out how to help my 14 yo. This time around, I knew about phonemic awareness and curriculum for dyslexics. Even though school is HARD for this kid, she doesn't experience the same frustration as her sister because I know how to teach her. We tried some standard curriculum (Phonics Pathways, AAS, McGuffey) in hopes that she wasn't dyslexic, but she made no progress whatsoever. None. Then we did LiPS, and her PA improved to the point that we did 100EZL. Even though it was hard, she was proud of her progress. After 100EZL, she just barely passed the Barton screening, so we started Barton. The first level was very hard, but she has made steady, measurable progress with Barton. She had an APD follow up evaluation in December, and we discovered that her phonemic awareness is 100% remediated.

 

So... based on our experience, I agree with what I've read elsewhere - that phonemic awareness must be in place before beginning phonics. As for teaching it with letters, my 9 yo couldn't remember letter names or sounds until we worked on PA separately. LiPS, Barton, and Literacy Leaders all work on PA apart from letters, and these are all programs developed for kids with dyslexia/reading disabilities by different publishers. So I'd be inclined to think that kids with severe PA deficits need to work on PA separately from reading and letters.

 

My apologies if I sounded as if I did not think PA is important. I just like a healthy and in-depth discussion and like to investigate every facet. I can't have this sort of discussion IRL, LOL! I know that PA is crucial, and that children with reading problems have weaknesses in that. I just question whether a child has to *master* PA in order to get on with reading instruction. I think it continue to develop alongside the right type of reading instruction (code based), such as OG. In my WRTR manual, it also states that PA is more powerfully taught with letters. A speech pathologist and I were discussing this. She said that she'd recently read that when working on articulation with young children it can be helpful to give them something explicit to hold (such as a magnetic letter) while you are working on that sound. Sounds are fleeting, but letters are concrete.

 

I also work with a child who is severe and she could not remember letter sounds and this was very, very severe. She knew words were made up of individual sounds and she could auditorily segment them. She just couldn't remember/hook the correct sound to the correct symbol. Would this be a PA weakness? This is the same kid who flew through Barton level 1. If I'd never taught her the letter sounds, level 2 would have been a nightmare. SWR or WRTR would have been horrible, because of the up-front memory load....she'd have pulled out her hair too. It is finally starting to come together in level 3.

 

I like that level 1 is short (and I've done it with about 10 kids) and that subsequent levels continue to work on manipulating the sounds in words. The movements and fingerspelling truly help to make those sounds more concrete.

[LizzyBee]

My apologies if I sounded as if I did not think PA is important.

 

-- I didn't think that at all! No apologies necessary.

 

I just like a healthy and in-depth discussion and like to investigate every facet. I can't have this sort of discussion IRL, LOL!

 

-- I agree! I hope I don't come across like I have it all figured out, because I don't. But it helps me to discuss these things and share our experiences.

 

I know that PA is crucial, and that children with reading problems have weaknesses in that. I just question whether a child has to *master* PA in order to get on with reading instruction. I think it continue to develop alongside the right type of reading instruction (code based), such as OG.

 

-- I think a certain level of PA is necessary before beginning phonics, but I agree that PA will continue to develop with phonics instruction.

 

In my WRTR manual, it also states that PA is more powerfully taught with letters. A speech pathologist and I were discussing this. She said that she'd recently read that when working on articulation with young children it can be helpful to give them something explicit to hold (such as a magnetic letter) while you are working on that sound. Sounds are fleeting, but letters are concrete.

 

-- My dd9 had 6 years of speech therapy, and the first three years were focused on articulation. She had certain movements to go with the sounds. When she was 5, I added letters and assumed she would pick up phonics easily since it seemed to go hand in hand with her speech therapy. She didn't. But her lack of PA was rather extreme. On reflection, LiPS and Barton Level 1 were very difficult for her, but as we've continued in Barton, her PA skills did continue to improve.

 

 

I also work with a child who is severe and she could not remember letter sounds and this was very, very severe. She knew words were made up of individual sounds and she could auditorily segment them. She just couldn't remember/hook the correct sound to the correct symbol. Would this be a PA weakness? This is the same kid who flew through Barton level 1. If I'd never taught her the letter sounds, level 2 would have been a nightmare. SWR or WRTR would have been horrible, because of the up-front memory load....she'd have pulled out her hair too. It is finally starting to come together in level 3.

 

 

--Since she could segment words and flew through Barton level 1, I'd suspect that is not a PA issue. I've heard it referred to as a weakness of sound to symbol association, but I'm not sure exactly what causes it. I think in The Myth of Laziness, Mel Levine refers to it as a memory issue, but I can't remember the specific step in the memory chain.

 

I like that level 1 is short (and I've done it with about 10 kids) and that subsequent levels continue to work on manipulating the sounds in words. The movements and fingerspelling truly help to make those sounds more concrete.

 

-- I agree.

 

See responses within the quote. :001_smile: