Couple of Classical Conversations ?'s

[Mommamia]

How is the new Foundations guide(3rd edition?) different from the 2nd edition?

 

If you are doing CC, do you introduce the memory work before the class?

Edited March 9, 2011 by mom2littleboys

[Mommamia]

help:lurk5:

[Woodland_Mom]

The third edition was updated in 2009 and is the most current edition. For the most part, the content is the same, but it is MUCH more readable.

CC reformatted the entire book to make it more pleasing to the eye. There were many errors in the 2nd edition and those were corrected. The 3rd edition is also organized better.

[bethben]

They are not learning about the "whys" because in the grammar stage, it's really all about the memorization. Children at that age are pre-wired by God to memorize. If they do want to learn the "why's" there are sheets you can print off of the CC portal that will explain the memorization or you can read books about the subject.

 

I like this example of my friend with just the history sentences and time line cards - she has an 8 year old daughter currently. She spent her early school years with mystery of history (which is what the older siblings were learning) - a lot of her try to teach her daughter the "why's". Her daughter hated history until they started CC where she was just memorizing. She loves history now. Answering the why questions is a dialectic skill. My son is learning to skip count right now. I've never explained why he has to do it or how it will help with multiplication- he doesn't really care. He just loves to memorize. So, yes, they are just memorizing--which at those ages is what is appropriate.

 

Beth

[Hedgehogs4]

The memory work is introduced without teaching the content. If you desire to teach the content, you do that at home. We often do, but sometimes we do not.

 

If you understand CC's philosophy, there is the concept of "pegs." What they mean by this is that they teach children an item to memorize, which they then store in their little brains for easy recall when they learn more about it. Basically it's the framing of the house before the finish work is put in. It begins to build the framework of knowledge which will be filled in with details and more facts at a later time, especially during the logic stage. My dd 5 doesn't care to learn more about the Magna Carta at this point, she just likes singing the song. My son (9 1/2 ) is all about learning about the kings, absolute power, and abuse of power. He is beginning to sort out what it means to fight for independence, and put this in the context of what is going on in the Middle east at the moment. cool. However, he doesn't understand it all yet, he's mostly just puzzling it over and asking lots of questions. The understanding will come a bit later. But it started with our study of the Magna Carta and the kings and absolute power, which were embedded in our history songs for this year.

 

I can give a good example of this: His first cycle of cc was Cycle 2. He then completed cycle 3 and took a year off (last year). During Cycle 2 we went on a field trip to the capital building where he saw a replica of the Magna Carta. He looked at it and we immediately were able to recall "English King John signed the Magna Carta in 1215, limiting the king's power..." He looked at me and said, "that's it? Wow..." and we were able to talk about why a replica of the M.C. would be presented in our own houses of government, why it was important for us, etc. He was excited to see something he had memorized come to life for him on one of his field trips.

 

It may seem weird at first to memorize out of context, but with time you come to understand that this really does work, but you have to hang with it for a while.

 

I have a blog post about my CC journey here. Maybe it will help you. My most recent weekly update also discusses the merits of CC in our day to day experience.

[Mandy in TN]

How is the new Foundations guide(3rd edition?) different from the 2nd edition?

I have the third edition and so I can't help you with this one.

 

If you are doing CC, do you introduce the memory work before the class?

Yes, I introduce the memory work before class. Our CC meets on Tuesday. I introduce the new material on Thursday, so Tuesday is really almost a wrap-up session.

 

Some tutors introduce the material as if this is the first time the kids are seeing it and some tutors teach as if the kids have already been introduced at home. I think this is dependent upon the tutor (and maybe the class).

 

Some parents prefer that the material is introduced at CC and then they cover it in more depth at home. Some parents prefer that CC is a wrap up to what their child has already covered in more depth at home. Some parents prefer to just use CC as memory work and do something entirely different at home. This dependents upon the parent.

 

We sat in with a class. I noticed that each subject moved very quickly.

The subjects do move along at a good clip. This sort of tutoring service definitely works best with children who can focus and keep up with the pace.

 

It seemed that things were being introduced that the child did not know, but it didn't matter. I got the impression that the content wouldn't be taught.

The class is designed to meet for three hours and the memory material is covered in rapid succession.

 

What and how much more is done depends on the age of the students, the disposition of the class (how much time the tutor must spend correcting/ redirecting), and the tutor's teaching style. Our tutor does use material from CCconnected to take the sentences just a tad deeper. She also has the children find the geography material on maps and creating blob maps. Our tutor has numerous times used the presentations as an opportunity for the children to explore history and science topics that have been presented in the memory work.

 

So, is it just memorizing without learning?

I use various reference materials to cover the material presented in each week's memory work, because I can't bring myself to believe that memory work without context is of value. I know that Leigh Bortins and many parents do feel that memory work is valuable as a pegs on which to hang future knowledge. If it works for them to use CC simply as a memory work device, then of course they need to do what works for their family. The beauty of CC is that you are free to do what works for you and your child.

 

I view the Tuesday meeting as a learning experience in working with a group. I am particularly delighted with the communication skills that my child is learning through the presentations. It is also a place where my little man can see that other children are working towards some of the same goals. My little man is competitive and this type of group encourages him to put forth more effort than perhaps he would on his own. His class is a wonderful group of bright, encouraging, participating young people.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[EowynR]

I think memory work "without context" is of tremendous value.

 

"Memory work" and "learning" are not mutually exclusive. Training your brain to memorize *is* learning. I still remember Scripture that I memorized as a child. It could take books to fill up a study of John 14, for example, but having John 14 in my heart still helps me.

 

I've forgotten most of the "surveys" my elementary teachers gave me. They were wasting my time. I remember what I've memorized, however. Those facts still have objective value in my brain. A "survey" is studying about a subject. Subjective knowledge can be accomplished by anyone, at any time, once they have the basic tools to acquire understanding. We teach a child phonics in order that they might read many words, but we don't bore them or waste their time with the etymology of words.

 

As an example of what I've learned, during my first year with CC, the kids and I memorized the 50 Presidents in order. Do I have to know all about what each one accomplished when I'm five years old or forty years old? Nah. But it sure will help when a future teacher talks about "Calvin Coolidge" to mentally place him in history way back before President Carter and after Abraham Lincoln. I can specifically place him between Harding and Hoover in about five seconds. It helps. I was a history major in college, but I never was able to list the Presidents in order before I went to CC with my kids.

 

I've always been a fan of Dorothy Sayers. I've read all her books and a biography of her. Her essay on "The Lost Tools of Learning" will help seekers understand why CC uses the memory method. Note the use of the word "Learning" in the title. :-)

 

http://www.gbt.org/text/sayers.html

[MeganW]

I too visited a CC community recently, and asked some of these same types of questions. One comment that really stuck in my brain was a mom talking about memorizing Latin. She said 3 years ago she thought it was just a stupid waste of time for a kindergartener to memorize the Latin, but her child was one of those who really wanted to know EVERYTHING before they went to class, so she worked on it with him faithfully. Now, 3 years later, they are actually studying Latin, and she says she really sees the value of that prior work. He already has some of it in his head, so the lessons aren't nearly as difficult as they would be otherwise.

 

Another mom was saying that she agrees with the philosophy of memorizing without context, but her kids enjoy the memorization a lot more when they have some background, so she fleshes it out at home. She said some weeks she has indepth studies and activities and books, and other weeks they watch a Magic School Bus about the science fact and call it done. She said she tries to do at least ONE thing to make each piece of material more relevant to the kids, and apparently it makes the memorization much easier! I am planning on following that advice - I can totally see my kids feeling the same way!

[Mandy in TN]

I think memory work "without context" is of tremendous value.

 

"Memory work" and "learning" are not mutually exclusive. Training your brain to memorize *is* learning. I still remember Scripture that I memorized as a child. It could take books to fill up a study of John 14, for example, but having John 14 in my heart still helps me.

 

I've forgotten most of the "surveys" my elementary teachers gave me. They were wasting my time. I remember what I've memorized, however. Those facts still have objective value in my brain. A "survey" is studying about a subject. Subjective knowledge can be accomplished by anyone, at any time, once they have the basic tools to acquire understanding. We teach a child phonics in order that they might read many words, but we don't bore them or waste their time with the etymology of words.

 

As an example of what I've learned, during my first year with CC, the kids and I memorized the 50 Presidents in order. Do I have to know all about what each one accomplished when I'm five years old or forty years old? Nah. But it sure will help when a future teacher talks about "Calvin Coolidge" to mentally place him in history way back before President Carter and after Abraham Lincoln. I can specifically place him between Harding and Hoover in about five seconds. It helps. I was a history major in college, but I never was able to list the Presidents in order before I went to CC with my kids.

 

I've always been a fan of Dorothy Sayers. I've read all her books and a biography of her. Her essay on "The Lost Tools of Learning" will help seekers understand why CC uses the memory method. Note the use of the word "Learning" in the title. :-)

 

http://www.gbt.org/text/sayers.html

Thanks for sharing how that worked for you. Like I said the great thing about CC is that you can do whatever works for you and your child.

 

Memory work out of context definitely depends on the child. My oldest two went to a VP model school for 2years. They had to memorize the Presidents, memorize history songs, memorize Shurley grammar jingles, extensive bible passages, etc. They both immediately forgot all of it.

 

I found this particularly true with the survey subjects of history (where they forgot the memory work, but remembered those things they thought to be interesting or important) and elementary school science, because with math and grammar at least a child builds onto and uses the information that he has memorized. (although- for the life of me I can't figure out why in the world a child would need to skip count for 6 or 7 years... unless of course he had no idea what he was saying.)

 

I promise my 17yo can't tell you the presidents in order. The information that he remembers that he will be able to build on next year when he studies US history is the information that he actually surveyed previously. My oldest ds remembers far more from SL where he made connections between his history reading and his historical fiction and became empathetically involved with the material than from the tidbits of trivia that he was asked to memorize.

 

I am not particularly impressed by a child who can rattle off information that he does not understand, because in my experience if he does not understand what he is saying, then he can't use it, and he will forget it as soon as he is not saying it regularly. However, if he understands what he is saying and can explain it to you, then the knowledge is his.

 

 

Dorothy Sayers never said to memorize totally outside of context. She says, "The grammar of History should consist, I think, of dates, events, anecdotes, and personalities...does not greatly matter which dates: those of the Kings of England will do very nicely, provided that they are accompanied by pictures of costumes, architecture, and other everyday things, so that the mere mention of a date calls up a very strong visual presentment of the whole period."

 

I am loving our CC experience and will heartily recommend it to others, but for me and my child we will need to make the memory work relevant.

Mandy

[EowynR]

Well, the CC timeline cards do present a picture of items from history, which helps.

 

I'm not really sure I understand "totally out of context," though. The history sentences at CC are complete thoughts, and the English grammar and Latin grammar consist of basics. In high school French class, the first thing we did was memorize "je, suis, il, elle, nous, vous, illes, elles." That way we could form sentences later. In middle school, we needed to memorize the forms of "be," so that we could figure out if a sentence had a linking verb. It's just useful basic academic stuff. I don't feel that we're memorizing useless material at CC.

 

Memorizing the formulas for finding the circumference of a circle, etc. will carry a kid all the way through high school.

 

Maybe it's because I'm older or because I was a tutor, but I've discovered that I've still retained the ability to memorize, and I've "proofed" kids who also thrive on it. I think it's a useful way to train one's brain for many things.

[EowynR]

I use CC like an enrichment class. It's not an "all or nothing" thing. In other words, the memory work is like a separate class to us.

 

But I DO use the cycles to frame my home school. It helps us think about which subjects to cover at home, and it gives us a break from other subjects. For example, I might tend to go overboard on U.S. or European history, and leave out other things that CC brought to mind, like the great civilizations that used to exist in places we don't think about today.

 

We probably don't spend more than a few minutes a day on CC memory work - we play it in the car, etc. I don't feel as though it's going to ruin my child's education to do some memory work.

 

We are using SOTW middle ages this year, to go along with the CC memory work for the history part. My 4th-grade daughter was reading about "two King Charleses" in her chapter today, and couldn't recall the order, and her friend from CC said, "Oh - I know which order they're in: "Charles Martel, Pepin the Short, and then Charlemagne."

[Heidi @ Mt Hope]

I posted about the value of the CC memory work at this link, but I'll share a couple things here.

 

If you aren't planning on studying grammar, the memory work won't help much. We do study grammar, and it has been helpful to have a systematic way to memorize definitions and such. My boys use their skip counting constantly in their math work at home. I think it is fabulous that they have memorized common math formulas. They love chanting Latin. We're learning Latin at home and they need to know declensions and conjugations anyway.

 

The geography... oh. my. word. I love the geography. This is definitely a skill the boys will be building on each year. I am astounded at what *I've* learned. And each week at home we practice our map drawing and often watch educational shows about the week's countries, color maps, or read books relating to the country.

 

This year, we've used the science and history sentences for our studies during the week. Books, DVDs, encyclopedia... it's pretty darn easy to provide a little bit of context. And I've found that it helps to give context AFTER learning the memory work at CC (our tutors prefer to be the ones to introduce the info, otherwise there isn't much point and the kids are bored), and it doesn't have to be that week exactly. Because they've *memorized* the info, they still have lightbulb moments weeks and months after learning it. We study history chronologically and study science, so they are getting the context at some point even if it isn't that week.

 

I've seen interest in my youngest two boys in particular that hasn't been there before. They thrive off of the memory work and the lightbulb moments.

[Hedgehogs4]

 

The geography... oh. my. word. I love the geography. This is definitely a skill the boys will be building on each year. I am astounded at what *I've* learned. And each week at home we practice our map drawing and often watch educational shows about the week's countries, color maps, or read books relating to the country.

 

 

:iagree: We have really enjoyed the Geography this year, except here at the end with the "formers" but never mind...Both kids have done well with the maps and my ds9 pores over our various maps, traces them, colors them, and memorizes them purely out of interest. In most cases he memorized way ahead of what was assigned, simply by studying his maps.