Rhetoric...what does this mean to you?

[Kfamily]

I'm considering our high school years and have been thinking about logic and rhetoric. I was considering using the books from Memoria Press (Traditional Logic, Rhetoric...was considering skipping Material Logic) and I kept wondering if this was necessary.

I know there are two ways to consider this. Many consider Rhetoric a stage of learning in which I assume the skills/ideas in rhetoric are integrated. Is this correct? I also see it treated as a separate subject such as Memoria Press does with its book on Rhetoric. I know in the WTM rhetoric is also a subject using A Rulebook of Arguments, etc. but I think it is also expected to be applied and integrated across subjects. We're not there yet so I may have this wrong.

I would prefer to make this a part of all that we do in the highschool years.

Do you teach Rhetoric as a subject or do you integrate it across all subjects making it a body of ideas/skills/method for thinking that applies to everything?

I'm having trouble writing this...I can't seem to put into words what I'm thinking so I hope this makes sense. I think this is a reflection of my own lack of knowledge here. Any reading suggestions for me?:D

Thanks!

[Tullia]

My son used Traditional Logic I & II, Material Logic, and Classical Rhetoric with Aristotle. The best resource I've found for putting all the pieces together is Corbett's Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student. Most of the direct applications we worked on were in language arts and literature, although studying rhetoric allows a person to look at science and history in ways that are somewhat different than the typical modern frameworks.

 

I always try to keep Aristotle's definition in mind to keep myself from getting lost because it's easy to be overwhelmed by the terminology; "the faculty of observing in any given case the available means of persuasion." It's a deceptively simple statement since in order to do so a student needs to learn and then practice skills of observation, classification, and analysis as well as the various techniques of persuasion. Then a student progresses to understanding how and when to apply those techniques. IMO, the study of rhetoric is best pursued at whatever rate works best for you, and it's something that could take a lifetime so don't feel trapped by thinking that you need to read a particular set of books or use a predetermined curriculum progression.

 

I hope this makes sense...it's been a long day and it's past my bedtime--Martha

 

ETA: A couple of observations after looking at your curriculum list...I've always been impressed with CM-style nature study as a way to develop observation skills. Also, the CW series does an excellent job of applying the theory of grammar/logic/and rhetoric to language arts and literature.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Martha in NM

[Melissa B]

I lump rhetoric with composition and speech, a sort of advanced/persuasive speech and composition class. (In our plan,) my kids will take Composition I and Speech at the community college each for a half credit. In the same way, if the progress far enough in their studies they will also take Rhetoric (online) for a credit - so it is its own course. On the other hand, I also expect my children to write compositions and give presentations/speeches in all of their content classes. Therefore, in addition to the separate class, I expect the principles of rhetoric to be used across the curriculum as they are learned by the student.

 

I do not use rhetoric as a term for a 'stage of learning' as it is used in the WTM. I use the standard public school stages/levels - early elementary level, elementary level, junior high level, high school level, college level, etc.

[Kfamily]

Martha and Melissa, thank you both for being so thorough in your reply!

 

I am putting Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student in my Amazon cart today.

 

I think what you are both saying makes the most sense. I need to teach the subject but make sure we apply it across everything else.

Thanks Martha for noting what we are already using. I have realized how important some aspects of Charlotte Mason really is to the whole of the approach and have added those back into our curriculum. Picture study, nature notebooks, drawing, studying the works of composers and watercolors all work on and reinforce the skills of careful observation and attention to detail. I'm so glad I've added them back.

Thanks again to both of you!:grouphug: