Writing help needed, for rising eighth grader.

[Catherine]

Let me start by saying that this is my second trip through eighth grade, and I want to do things differently this time. My eldest strongly resisted writing, and given my inexperience with teaching it, inability to find a satisfying curriculum, and dislike (!!!) of teaching the subject, we didn't do nearly enough. He is bright, and we did do Jensen's and some SAT writing review, and he took composition 101 at CC this past spring and got a solid A in the class, so it all turned out OK in the end. I should also say my three boys are all somewhat dysgraphic-they HATE writing, resist it strongly, and never do more than the minimum. When ds eldest learned to type, it didn't help much. It's putting their ideas into words, more than putting them down on paper, that they seem to have the most difficulty with. I tried a tutor and it was not useful-very expensive, and she was clearly most accustomed to dealing with much younger children in a remediative capacity. I just wanted someone else to deal with it all and alas, I haven't found anyone willing to do it well for a reasonable price. Also tried Writing Assessment Services-was OK, but I'm not interested in using it again. I disliked the computer-assessment of most papers that she used.

 

So.....let me tell you what I have tried. Tried CW twice with eldest-not for us. I wanted to like it, but it just didn't work for us. Used IEW, for both older two kids, with some success, but in the end it seemed to be too much about formulae and no help with content. I need guidance for both. I spent a lot of time on dictation alone with the kid I need help with, when he first came home in fourth grade. It helped, but what is next? He needs help to work quickly. For seventh grade, I tried to have him write the many short compositions that SWB says kids this age should be doing every week. NO WAY. He is a very bright kid, but he simply cannot manage more than one shortish composition per week. Unless I am misunderstanding what SWB means, she intends kids to do the read-outline-write-revise routine for each composition, right?

 

I need something that is open and go-like Rod and Staff Grammar, or Rightstart Math. Any thoughts? I'm using WWE for my grammar stage kid and for ME at least, it's wonderful-like I said, open and go.

[Melissa in CA]

I have no advice...but I am all ears! :bigear:

[Martha in GA]

I just put a similar request on the high school board. Same experience with oldest ds and not willing to go there with my other three kids. Open and go is what I desperately want...

 

Martha:bigear:

[Colleen in NS]

It's putting their ideas into words, more than putting them down on paper, that they seem to have the most difficulty with.

 

He needs help to work quickly. For seventh grade, I tried to have him write the many short compositions that SWB says kids this age should be doing every week. NO WAY. He is a very bright kid, but he simply cannot manage more than one shortish composition per week. Unless I am misunderstanding what SWB means, she intends kids to do the read-outline-write-revise routine for each composition, right?

 

I'm using WWE for my grammar stage kid and for ME at least, it's wonderful-like I said, open and go.

 

Well, my oldest is only 12, so take this with a grain of salt. I attended all of SWB's workshops last year at the PHP conf., and got a MUCH better understanding of the whole writing process than I had before.

 

"Putting ideas into words"...that is the whole goal of WTM/WWE-style narration. Learning to read through something and summarize either the main facts or the storyline. When I first whizzed through WWE with ds, I was surprised by how much skill needs to go into teaching how to put ideas into words - grammatically correct sentences that contained the main facts or storyline. How is he with, say, WWE 4 narrations? Might he need some narration practice with any of the WWE levels, before trying to do outlines?

 

"read-outline-write-revise routine for each composition" - well, my understanding is that you'd have them do this routine, well into 8th grade (or later if they need to build previous skills), AFTER they have had plenty of practice in narration, and then outlining (practicing one level at a time, so spending awhile on one-level outlining, then two-level, then three) from good writing (it's like copywork - you are imitating good writers by analyzing their writing, before you try your own). After they are comfortable with making three-level outlines from their reading, then you try having them rewrite from their outlines.

 

Also, I don't remember a whole lot of talk about revising at this point in their development. She pointed out revising for grammatical, mechanical, and spelling errors, and that was about it. It seems to me that correcting these types of concrete errors are what will make the overall piece more readable.

 

Then, in my understanding, it was in high school (or whenever they acquire these previous skills) that they can start reading, taking notes from which to create their own outlines of a topic, and writing essays on those topics. And developing different skills of rhetoric. See, it's all the previous skill build-up that leads to being able to start practicing this. And, I do remember her saying something about still not worrying too much about revising, except for those grammatical/mechanical/spelling errors. She emphasized that during high school it was still a time to *practice* doing all this, not going for absolutely perfect papers, because rhetoric skills and style are so much more subjective than things like grammar/mechanics/spelling.

 

Also, I think those "many short compositions every week" are just a guideline. You have to take the skills you think ds needs to work on, and spread them out through the week as you see fit. Maybe he needs to practice narration. So maybe have him do a couple of or three one-paragraph narrations a week, from a chapter or two of reading. Let him get really good at putting his thoughts into words, using the one-paragraph as a vehicle. Then, let him drop to maybe one one-paragraph narration per week, while he practices outlining a couple of times per week. His outlines could be on just 5-6 paragraphs. When she said short, she meant short! :D Of course, if he knows how to do multi-paragraph narrations, go for it, but maybe he needs the one-paragraph for now? Besides, what I finally figured out is that when you learn how to outline something and rewrite from it, you automatically are writing multi-paragraph papers then. So I don't worry about my ds still only writing one-paragraphers right now. He will soon go beyond that, when he starts rewriting from outlines this coming year (7th). And BELIEVE ME. This child is (was?) my writing phobic one for years. SWB's lectures really helped me to get him beyond all that.

 

And just to give you some hope of open-and-go, SWB is currently working on Writing With Skill. :D No idea when it will be available.

 

One last thing: another thing SWB told us is that if, by the END of high school, our kids can at least narrate easily, outline from someone else's writing to the third level easily, and rewrite from those outlines easily, they would be able to easily learn in college the rest of the writing skills they'd need. Most of her college freshmen students, even from private prep schools, can't even do these things. THAT was a huge encouragement to hear. It took a lot of pressure off. Now, I suspect that many of us here will be able to get our kids beyond her "logic stage writing skills" and into rhetoric skill to some extent; but each of our kids will be on different timelines, and that is OK. It was good to hear that bigger perspective from a college writing professor.

 

hth

[Catherine]

Thank you so much Colleen!! I think you have hit on something. Next question now-isn't it OK to initially practice oral narrations first, then written? I can work on the oral easily this summer. Then write in the fall...

[chubbyhugs]

In 8th grade Dd used Jump In: A workbook for Reluctant and Eager Writers by Sharon Watson.

 

Colleen gave good information that I have to re-read to digest.

 

My dd had a problem with wanting to be "perfect" when she began to write anything. She wanted everything to be grammatically correct from the get go. But she also had a problem with having material to write about. We used IEW but it didn't work for us as she wanted to express her own material - not write what others had written. She did do narration, dictation, memorization a la WTM in early elementary, but she never took to writing. I think she disliked it because of the physical part - she didn't like her hand to get tired, and because she had the perfectionist notion. By 12 she learned how to type, but she still didn't want to write compositions.

 

Jump In helped her because it breaks down writing in doable steps. It is a ready-to-go program that covers prewriting skills, opinion, persuasion, exposition (biography, book report, newspaper article, how-to, compare and contrast), description, narration, poetry. It is written to middle schoolers, but we are going to use it as a reference for high school. In 8th grade she learned how to write a good thesis and the evidence to back it up. She wrote a science fair report that another teacher graded her 100%, and is more at ease writing more than one paragraph. She just needs to write more often now to retain the practice.

[Catherine]

I will check it out! Sounds very helpful.

[Sunshine State Sue]

I used Write Shop with my reluctant writer for 6th-7th-8th grade. I liked it because it was extremely detailed for both the parent/teacher and the student. We both needed explicit instruction. You may read my review here.

[Colleen in NS]

isn't it OK to initially practice oral narrations first, then written?

 

Sure! Because then you can orally work on correcting his sentences, and having him repeat them grammatically correctly after you. I bet you wouldn't have to do just oral for long. If he gets the hang of being corrected/repeating correctly and then putting it on paper correctly, you can change the routine just slightly, to having him say something orally, then either you correcting and having him repeat, or him self-correcting, then then him writing it down. It seems that once they can get their thoughts out there into the air, they can learn to correct the structure, and then write it down.

 

Even today I was sitting with a friend, and asking her some questions. She paused, and I tended to rush in to guess her answers. She smiled and said, "hmmm...." and I said, "Right! Let you gather your thoughts." So when I gave her the chance, she was able to elaborate her answers. Great life skills, eh?

[Catherine]

Wow-wonderful, detailed review! Thank you so much. Thanks also to Colleen for checking back. I'm getting some wonderful ideas here.