If you use K12 Human Odyssey for outlining.. help?

[Night Elf]

My dd12 started outlining today with this text. She's starting with 1-level outlines. As we've never outlined before, I'd greatly appreciate someone looking up these passages and telling me if you think she's pulled out a main idea. This outlining is harder than it looks! :)

 

from The Medieval World, page 440

 

I. The word “medieval†is an adjective that means “relating to the medieval agesâ€.

 

II. The middle ages started at the same time all over the world.

 

III. The middle ages have an influence on today’s world.

 

IV. Such terms as “the king of his castleâ€, “a knight in shining armorâ€, and “a real crusader†are still used today.

 

V. “From here to Timbuktu†is a phrase referring to a great west African city that medieval people thought was really far away.

 

This may be too much to ask, but she is interested in knowing how to do this as well. Thanks!!

[Night Elf]

No one? I saw several posters say they were using this text for outlining, which is where I got the idea. I'll have my DH look at it too. I don't know why I didn't think of that. :)

[swimmermom3]

Your daughter has done a good job of capturing the main ideas on that page. One thing you may consider since she is twelve is giving a related chunk to work with and not simply a page. For example, have her use "An Age of Faith with Lasting Effects" as Roman numeral "I." She should be able to draw at least one fact from each paragraph to support it.

 

While this isn't technically a one-level outline, it allows her to focus on making sure the additional facts that she lists relate to the topic. I think she already demonstrates a fairly good grasp of pulling out the facts. My concern would be that if you are only doing one page at a time or coming into the information in the middle of a topic, it's harder for the student to see the levels of organization and relatedness. By outlining this way, she will realize that the final paragraph of this section on pg. 443 doesn't need to be included because it doesn't specifically cover a lasting effect. I hope this makes sense.

 

Her first effort at outlining was well-done and she should be pleased with her effort. Way to go!:D If you have the latest edition of TWTM, copy pp. 297-301 and let your daughter read through them as you progress with your outlining. My son, who is also 12, found this to be the single most helpful source on outlining.

[Night Elf]

Awesome Lisa, thank you. This was her first ever attempt at outlining so we just started with that first page. I was afraid to do more than a 1-level outline because of that. I listened to SWB's middle school writing so I was asking her the 'main idea' type question but breaking it into the paragraphs was kind of hard. We'll try the section you recommend in our next outlining session.

 

Thanks again!

[Night Elf]

One thing you may consider since she is twelve is giving a related chunk to work with and not simply a page. For example, have her use "An Age of Faith with Lasting Effects" as Roman numeral "I." She should be able to draw at least one fact from each paragraph to support it.

 

Thank you Lisa! We gave it a try today and it really was so much easier this way. She really enjoyed it! We read the entire passage and then she pulled out the main idea. And then looking at the paragraphs again, she found supporting details. AND, because she wasn't satisfied with the general supporting details, she did a 3-level outline to add specifics. :lol: I hope it always goes that smoothly. I told her not to rush herself, but she wanted to do it that way.

[Capt_Uhura]

Swimmermom - What you described is how I imagined using K12 Human Odyssey for outlining.

 

Night Elf - Would you mind posting your DD's second outline?

 

Capt_Uhura

[Night Elf]

Night Elf - Would you mind posting your DD's second outline?

 

Sure, I think she did so much better this time. We had read through TWTM's outlining procedures first.

 

This outline comes from pages 439-441.

 

The Medieval World: Introduction

 

I. The Middle Ages spanned between A.D 500 and 1400.

 

 

A. From Ancient Greece and Rome to early modern era.

 

B. Started in all parts of the world at the same time.

 

 

II. Our modern world is influenced by traditions that started in Medieval Times.

 

 

A. Holidays

 

 

 

1. The word “holiday†was derived from the phrase “holy daysâ€.

 

2. Halloween originated as “All Hallows’ Eveâ€.

 

 

B. School

 

 

 

1. Universities started in the Middle Ages.

[Capt_Uhura]

She did a great job! Does SWB want complete sentences in outlines? For me, I would have written something like:

 

I. Middle Ages - A.D 500 and 1400.

A. From Ancient Greece and Rome to early modern era

B. Started in all parts of the world at the same time

 

II. modern world influenced by traditions that started in Medieval Times.

A. Holidays

1. “holiday†derived from phrase “holy daysâ€

2. Halloween originated as “All Hallows’ Eveâ€

 

B. School

1. Universities started in Middle Ages.

 

 

I'm wondering if writing as I did above, might cause DC to write in incomplete sentences?

[Night Elf]

She did a great job! Does SWB want complete sentences in outlines?

 

Yes, but my dd didn't pick that up in the first part, and I didn't catch it either. I think the reasoning is that the student will write from the outlines. I'm not sure how often dd12 should do that. But SWB's outlining examples in TWTM are in complete sentences.

[Capt_Uhura]

I can see pros and cons. One pro I've read against using complete sentences is that it helps to prevent DC from using sentences directly from the text. If you use keywords, then it's less likely to turn out exactly as the text.

 

yes, I can see that it may depend on the purpose of the outline. I've outlined a few History channel shows and in trying to keep up w/ the discussion, you're writing in phrases and keywords. That would be outlining for the purpose of note taking. I could easily re-write from that outline and wouldn't risk including text exactly from the book.

 

If you're outlining to see how good authors develop paragraphs and main ideas, it wouldn't matter.

 

We're just starting on our K12 Human Odyssey outlining journey. Thank you for the discussion.

 

Capt_Uhura

[swimmermom3]

Beth, I am so glad to hear that the outlining worked well for your daughter and that she enjoyed it. It looks as though she is really getting the hang of it. My son has practiced outlining using both the key word outline technique and writing full sentences. We primarily use full sentences if we are going to write a narrative or a paper from the outline.

 

I have found that for the start of what we consider middle school (6th-8th grade) I teach on two levels: the correct format and what I would do if I was the student.:D For example, I am teaching my son how to outline using complete sentences but I occasionally allow him to outline using fragments or key words if the assignment warrants. What I mean is, if I were taking notes but wanted to organize information in levels, I wouldn't waste my time writing out full sentences, especially if I wasn't going to write from the outline.

 

With Swimmer Dude, I can teach the rules and when to break the rules. He doesn't like to waste time. On the other hand, with his older brother I stick to the rules. I do not teach him short cuts. He is already to prone to doing that.

[Capt_Uhura]

Swimmermom - Do you find that if he writes in full sentences, that he just takes the sentence from the text? Or is the full sentence of his own creation? And when he writes a narrative from it, does he often include the full sentence verbatim or does he re-write them?

 

Thanks,

Capt_Uhura

[swimmermom3]

Swimmermom - Do you find that if he writes in full sentences, that he just takes the sentence from the text? Or is the full sentence of his own creation? And when he writes a narrative from it, does he often include the full sentence verbatim or does he re-write them?

 

Thanks,

Capt_Uhura

 

We've had enough work on paraphrasing that he will usually create his own sentence. However, here is where breaking the rules comes in again. If he is doing an outline for the purpose of writing from it, he must paraphrase. If he is outlining for the purpose of note taking, I don't care if he copies verbatim. Creating new sentences from basic sources is a lot of work and can be frustrating for students. As an adult, if you are taking notes for teaching a subject, do you paraphrase everything? My guess is that you just write down what is pertinent with little regard to form.

 

What we do here may be a bit unorthodox but I have found that it saves time and frustration and doesn't seem to sacrifice quality. When starting to outline, I am less concerned about full sentences than I am about correctly organizing the information. We do move to full sentences quickly.

[Night Elf]

Swimmermom - Do you find that if he writes in full sentences, that he just takes the sentence from the text? Or is the full sentence of his own creation? And when he writes a narrative from it, does he often include the full sentence verbatim or does he re-write them?

 

Thanks,

Capt_Uhura

 

I've taught my children how to put ideas into their own words from the beginning, so this wasn't an issue when dd12 was outlining this passage. There have been some occasions where we just can't find another way to say something, so they take part of the sentence for their own sentences.

 

With this passage, it was long enough to give supporting details, but short enough to not really have to go back and comb the paragraphs for information. When we finished reading, we talked aloud about the main idea and what ideas supported it. That may get more difficult as the passages get longer, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. :)

[Capt_Uhura]

Yep, I just get the info down in snippets for notetaking or a lecture. I don't ever recall writing in complete sentences. Even if I'm writing from a lecture, I leave out small words. I was just recalling something I read from a sample of IEW w/ the keyword outlines where you write 3 words per line and it prevents accidental plagiarism. Don't quote me on that lol but that's what I recall.

 

I have Remedia publications outlining book as well as WTM 2009 which I've been using w/ DS9.

 

Swimmermom - You're such a big help on this board! Thank you! :001_smile:

 

Capt_Uhura