Experience with WTM-style outlining in logic stage?

[Colleen in NS]

Would anyone be able to help me out on this thread? I thought I'd ask here, too, since you high school parents would have hindsight about it.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17598

 

Thank you very much!

[Michelle in MO]

with my older two to teach outlining, and I think it helped.

 

We use a large whiteboard in the basement, where we do school. (It's well-lit with windows, so it's not a nasty place to be when we do school!) Anyway, I would help them with the outline; I'd have my older two girls read the section in the Kingfisher book, and then we'd use the title of that section as the title for our outline.

 

Then, paragraph by paragraph, we'd read aloud together and we'd pick out, together, the main point of that paragraph, and then a few subpoints. If I remember correctly, usually there were larger subheadings underneath the main title in the Kingfisher book.

 

For example, in my newest copy of Kingfisher, on p. 218, it's entitled India: The Moguls 1504-1605. That would be the title of the outline. Then, there's an untitled section, so we'd give that a title and with each paragraph pick out one or two subpoints to make. Then, on p. 219 there's a subtitle that states, "Akbar Expands the Empire" so that would become our next major section (i.e., Roman numeral II) subtitle, along with a few subpoints, and then another major section "Mogul Greatness," which would become Roman numeral III, along with a few subpoints.

 

The process worked pretty well. We also used Abeka for grammar, which teaches outlining (so does R&S) and I would have to go over their outlines and their papers. Once, when my oldest was in 6th grade, she did a report on The Battle of the Alamo, and her outline was so convoluted that I had to go over it with her for about an hour before we straightened it out. A lot of work sometimes, but in the end outlining really helped them to keep things in order while they were writing.

 

HTH!

[Peela]

I think you may be over thinking the whole thing.

To me, outlining is a way of organising notes. Notes are a way of distilling the essential information. Outlining can be done directly, or as a way of organising notes as a step before writing an essay. (It is also a good way to study for an exam, but I haven't used it for that yet with them. )

Outlining has more context and makes more sense when you use it to write an essay. Once you have an outline, an essay is a synch. That's the next step. So I took to teaching the skill of outlining with that bigger picture in mind. I also teach plain notetaking as a related skill.

I have found the newer KHE ok at times..my kids are logic stage and sometimes they will use it, particularly my older. My younger uses the Usborne book more frequently. However, I also find them both a terribly boring way to learn history, so we don't use them every week.

I taught them both outlining using books that were easier....books with clear paragraphs, with a single topic per paragraph. Now they have the hang of it, they do it here and there using various things, in various contexts.

Sometimes they note take, sometimes they outline, and sometimes they outline in order to then write a report/ essay.

For example today I asked ds12 to write a narration for me of a Greek myth- the Gorgon's head, which he had just read in Hawthorne's book. It was a long story and he freaked at all the details he remembered- he likes to keep things short!

So we sat down together and as he gave me an oral narration, we worked out a basic chronological outline of events and in this case I wrote it down for him (he was quite upset over the whole thing). Tomorrow, he will write his narration using the outline.

I must admit both kids have found outlining fairly easy to learn....even my reluctant writer is fine with it, probably because it involves distilling, rather than expanding.

I am not sure if that helps at all..it just seemed to me you were complicating it unecessarily, and maybe weren't seeing the bigger picture.

[LisaNY]

I agree with Peela. I share the same reasons for teaching outlining.

 

I have both the OOP ed of KF and the new. I would switch back and forth between the two. To tell the truth, I think they are both poor outlining sources. We made it work, and my dd DID outline from them, but I would not seek them out as a source. Many times, my dd simply was not able to put together a cohesive outline from them, so I would have her just summarize the material. Summarizing is also a very important exercise, so I encourage you to add that to the mix. :001_smile:

 

I do feel that outlining has value, and it has helped my dd to glean the main points from what she has read. It has helped her with organizing her own writing. I would choose other sources for outlining. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think even SWB has recently stated that the KF text is not the best source for outlining.

 

Concerning the outlining of the myths in SOTW - that would be a good opportunity to practice summarizing. Leave the outlining for the history stories.

[Colleen in NS]

Would anyone be able to help me out on this thread? I thought I'd ask here, too, since you high school parents would have hindsight about it.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17598

 

Thank you very much!

 

Hi all, and thanks for your replies. I made another post on the K-8 board (to McConnellboys), if you want to read. I'll also work on replies here.

[Colleen in NS]

with my older two to teach outlining, and I think it helped.

 

We use a large whiteboard in the basement, where we do school. (It's well-lit with windows, so it's not a nasty place to be when we do school!) Anyway, I would help them with the outline; I'd have my older two girls read the section in the Kingfisher book, and then we'd use the title of that section as the title for our outline.

 

Then, paragraph by paragraph, we'd read aloud together and we'd pick out, together, the main point of that paragraph, and then a few subpoints. If I remember correctly, usually there were larger subheadings underneath the main title in the Kingfisher book.

 

For example, in my newest copy of Kingfisher, on p. 218, it's entitled India: The Moguls 1504-1605. That would be the title of the outline. Then, there's an untitled section, so we'd give that a title and with each paragraph pick out one or two subpoints to make. Then, on p. 219 there's a subtitle that states, "Akbar Expands the Empire" so that would become our next major section (i.e., Roman numeral II) subtitle, along with a few subpoints, and then another major section "Mogul Greatness," which would become Roman numeral III, along with a few subpoints.

 

The process worked pretty well. We also used Abeka for grammar, which teaches outlining (so does R&S) and I would have to go over their outlines and their papers. Once, when my oldest was in 6th grade, she did a report on The Battle of the Alamo, and her outline was so convoluted that I had to go over it with her for about an hour before we straightened it out. A lot of work sometimes, but in the end outlining really helped them to keep things in order while they were writing.

 

HTH!

 

Thank you so much for the details of how you used KF! It seems like you used outlining KF as a way to pick out the text ideas, and put the ideas in order. Did you use the older KF edition (before the 1999 ed.)?

[Colleen in NS]

Thanks, Peela, for your detailed reply, too.

 

I AM overthinking it and I knew it when I posted, LOL! I am just confused about two seemingly conflicting reasons for outlining history. I do get the bigger picture of why to teach outlining (to be able to write longer essays) - but my brain is stuck here for awhile. Do I teach outlining from an easy-to-outline text so the student can see ideas ordered logically in a paragraph so the student can do the same thing later? Or do I teach from a harder-to-outline text so the student can learn to think harder and rank a writer's perhaps more obscure or convoluted ideas into a more logical order? Or if it's both, how do I intertwine the two reasons into a study pattern for a year?

 

The fact that you say outlining one-topic-per-paragraph books made it easier for your kids to learn outlining makes me think that BECAUSE the ideas were in order, the kids could learn to extract the main points and subpoints more easily (because they are more easily seen). And at the same time, they are seeing the ideas laid out in a logical pattern. Then, when they get comfortable with this, and can recognize a logically laid out paragraph/essay, they can analyze a not-so-neatly-laid-out text and extract and rank the ideas. OH! OH! OH! Maybe THIS last thought is what I've been looking for! It just occurred to me....what do you think???? Am I putting it together in my mind correctly now? (why do I feel like I'm reinventing the wheel?? I'll probably find this idea expressed somehow in the WTM, LOL)

 

I also must say it was a relief to hear you say that you wrote, from his oral narration, a list of rough ideas for your son's outline from which to write an essay tomorrow. My son is 10 and it's a huge struggle still for him to combine voicing his thoughts with putting those voiced thoughts on paper. We faithfully practice oral narration and dictation each week. But, it's just a slow go around here to put the two skills together. I'm trying the tape recorder idea this week, and it works pretty well, but I have to still help him think through his thoughts, because he gets nervous about the tape recorder now - but I'm getting to the end of my rope with me writing his narrations - I have a 1st grader who needs me to do this, too. His brain races way ahead of his mouth and his fingers. So he gets upset, too. I can't imagine him writing two or three paragraph summaries next year by himself. But that's another topic....

 

Thanks again!

[Colleen in NS]

I agree with Peela. I share the same reasons for teaching outlining.

 

I have both the OOP ed of KF and the new. I would switch back and forth between the two. To tell the truth, I think they are both poor outlining sources. We made it work, and my dd DID outline from them, but I would not seek them out as a source. Many times, my dd simply was not able to put together a cohesive outline from them, so I would have her just summarize the material. Summarizing is also a very important exercise, so I encourage you to add that to the mix. :001_smile:

 

I do feel that outlining has value, and it has helped my dd to glean the main points from what she has read. It has helped her with organizing her own writing. I would choose other sources for outlining. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think even SWB has recently stated that the KF text is not the best source for outlining.

 

Concerning the outlining of the myths in SOTW - that would be a good opportunity to practice summarizing. Leave the outlining for the history stories.

 

I thought of searching out the OOP KF, but the fact that it's 15 years old already makes me think I'll just think about using SOTW/library books for outlining practice.

 

Yep, I plan to keep ds summarizing through at least 5th grade.

 

Re: summarizing myths in SOTW - I just remembered that I read in SWB's essay in her new writing book not to outline fiction because it follows different rules.

 

Thanks so much for your input!

[Peela]

The fact that you say outlining one-topic-per-paragraph books made it easier for your kids to learn outlining makes me think that BECAUSE the ideas were in order, the kids could learn to extract the main points and subpoints more easily (because they are more easily seen). And at the same time, they are seeing the ideas laid out in a logical pattern. Then, when they get comfortable with this, and can recognize a logically laid out paragraph/essay, they can analyze a not-so-neatly-laid-out text and extract and rank the ideas. OH! OH! OH! Maybe THIS last thought is what I've been looking for! It just occurred to me....what do you think???? Am I putting it together in my mind correctly now? (why do I feel like I'm reinventing the wheel?? I'll probably find this idea expressed somehow in the WTM, LOL)

 

 

Hi Colleen, I know you have received a reply from Susan, but I just thought iI would respond anyway..I agree with what you have seen here. I started with something easy. Now my daughter outlines her Science text book, and she can outline long passages of non fiction of narrative- not that she likes that much. Text books are easier. But I think you do have to start at the beginning, and progress forward from there. You wouldnt start a kid with a complex essay and ask them to organise the author's ideas in a more coherent fashion. That would come later. Well, i would think so, anyway.

[Colleen in NS]

At least now I know there ARE two different purposes fulfilled in outlining non-fiction. I guess I'll just start with teaching outlining from a logical one topic paragraph, and when **I** get comfortable with teaching that and ds is comfortable with picking the main idea of an easy paragraph, I'll try teaching the other reason for outlining (with KF, since I have it already). They both make sense to me. And it seems like someday a mental connection will be made between the two.

 

So, now I have another question for you (and I feel ridiculous asking).

 

Now my daughter outlines her Science text book, and she can outline long passages of non fiction of narrative- not that she likes that much. Text books are easier.

 

What is the difference between a narrative, and text books? Are text books easier for her to outline because they are shorter? Or some other reason? (still trying to organize my outlining thoughts! :))

 

G'day. :)

[Peela]

So, now I have another question for you (and I feel ridiculous asking).

 

What is the difference between a narrative, and text books? Are text books easier for her to outline because they are shorter? Or some other reason? (still trying to organize my outlining thoughts! :))

 

G'day. :)

 

Sorry, that probably wasn't very clear.

In her Science text book, there are headings and subheadings, and lots of visual information..different coloured and sized fonts. Things are broken up nicely, making it easier to outline, because in a way, some of the work has been done for you already.

When you read a book like SOTW, you have to create those headings and subheadings- the different layers of the outline- for yourself. The text does not discriminate visually...it's all plain text. Does that make it clearer?

[Colleen in NS]

Sorry, that probably wasn't very clear.

In her Science text book, there are headings and subheadings, and lots of visual information..different coloured and sized fonts. Things are broken up nicely, making it easier to outline, because in a way, some of the work has been done for you already.

When you read a book like SOTW, you have to create those headings and subheadings- the different layers of the outline- for yourself. The text does not discriminate visually...it's all plain text. Does that make it clearer?

 

Yes, it does - thanks for the explanation again! It is what I thought, but wasn't sure.

[Michelle in MO]

Thank you so much for the details of how you used KF! It seems like you used outlining KF as a way to pick out the text ideas, and put the ideas in order. Did you use the older KF edition (before the 1999 ed.)?

 

To answer you, we have three editions, and I think all three are post-1999. I think the older edition is out-of-print, but perhaps can be purchased through a used bookseller.

 

The reason why we have three editions is that the book was used so much! In fact, for some reason my oldest "takes" to encyclopedias, dictionaries, the thesaurus, and other reference books. When she and my middle daughter were younger, they had bunk beds in the same room, and she slept on the top bunk. She would read the Kingfisher book before going to bed, and when she was done, we'd hear a loud "thump" when she threw the book on the floor before going to sleep! That was our nightly signal that she was done reading and was going to bed! As a result, the spine of two of the Kingfisher books broke. We have a third book that is still intact! The oldest is now the proud owner of a much-tattered and worn Kingfisher with a broken spine!

 

For us, the book was helpful, but I would agree with Peela and Lisa in NY that outlining is simply a way of organizing your thoughts. Like I mentioned, even though we had outlined the Kingfisher book, I still found that my oldest would get things mixed up on an outline when writing a paper. Eventually she got better at it.

 

HTH!

[Colleen in NS]

To answer you, we have three editions, and I think all three are post-1999. I think the older edition is out-of-print, but perhaps can be purchased through a used bookseller.

 

The reason why we have three editions is that the book was used so much! In fact, for some reason my oldest "takes" to encyclopedias, dictionaries, the thesaurus, and other reference books. When she and my middle daughter were younger, they had bunk beds in the same room, and she slept on the top bunk. She would read the Kingfisher book before going to bed, and when she was done, we'd hear a loud "thump" when she threw the book on the floor before going to sleep! That was our nightly signal that she was done reading and was going to bed! As a result, the spine of two of the Kingfisher books broke. We have a third book that is still intact! The oldest is now the proud owner of a much-tattered and worn Kingfisher with a broken spine!

 

For us, the book was helpful, but I would agree with Peela and Lisa in NY that outlining is simply a way of organizing your thoughts. Like I mentioned, even though we had outlined the Kingfisher book, I still found that my oldest would get things mixed up on an outline when writing a paper. Eventually she got better at it.

 

HTH!

 

That is so funny about having three editions!! My son (10) is like that, too - he just LOVES to read all the reference books. Esp. from about ages 5-9. He first started deciphering words to read in a children's dictionary, then went on to tell me all sorts of facts that he had read in the back of the dictionary. Every time I bought a new science or history encyclopedia, he grabbed onto it for days.

 

I think I have a better idea now of what I'll do. I'm going to use something paragraph-like (SOTW maybe, or something else) to see how the author lays out ideas logically, and use the KF book to practice extracting and putting facts in logical order. (I just wrote this paragraph down to help me remember, LOL!)

 

I really, really, really appreciate all the help I've gotten here for this. I just LOVE using these boards!