x-post: Latin noun gender questions - specific words

[Colleen in NS]

Hi,

 

I am currently marking our noun cards from PL/LC1/LC2/Henle, for their gender. The MP guide says to do this (I think it means for the nouns introduced in Henle, but I figured why not do it for all the others we have so far, too), and have the student start reciting the gender, too, when they recite the nouns/translations. I have them all sorted into piles of first declension, second declension masculine, and so on. But I think I can see why the need to memorize gender now - makes translation easier - what do you think? And do you ever mix up the cards later on, as your students get more familiar with the genders? I'm thinking it's sort of like memorizing math facts - you memorize them in order first, then start mixing them up, a few groups at a time. Also, does anyone's student really get ALL that vocab/gender/declensions perfectly memorized at some point??

 

Also, I have questions on marking particular words, that I couldn't find genders for in my Henle book.

 

First declension:

 

auriga, ae - charioteer is this feminine because of first declension, or is it masculine because of a charioteer in ancient times being a man?

 

Second declension:

 

geminus, i - twin

discipulus, i - student

Romanus, i - a Roman

Christianus, i - a Christian

amicus, i - friend

aquarius, i - water carrier

Gallus, i - a Gaul

 

Would these second declension nouns above be considered common, or always masculine?

 

populus, i - people

magister, magistri - teacher

 

And what about these? Is populus common? And doesn't magister change to magistra? Would that be magistra, ae? (I guess I *should* mark magister, magistri as masculine).

 

Thanks for any help.

[Michelle in MO]

First declension:

 

auriga, ae - charioteer is this feminine because of first declension, or is it masculine because of a charioteer in ancient times being a man?

 

Second declension:

 

geminus, i - twin

discipulus, i - student

Romanus, i - a Roman

Christianus, i - a Christian

amicus, i - friend

aquarius, i - water carrier

Gallus, i - a Gaul

 

Would these second declension nouns above be considered common, or always masculine?

 

populus, i - people

magister, magistri - teacher

 

And what about these? Is populus common? And doesn't magister change to magistra? Would that be magistra, ae? (I guess I *should* mark magister, magistri as masculine).

 

Thanks for any help.

 

I think it's easier tackled now rather than later.

 

I'm hardly a Latin expert, but my Latin dictionary (Cassell's) lists auriga as common gender, but it would most likely be declined like a 1st declension noun. Populus is listed as a masculine noun (again, from the dictionary), and magister would also be a masculine noun; magistra would be feminine and would follow the 1st declension.

 

 

 

As far as I know, all of the second declension nouns you listed would be masculine.

[bcLover]

Good morning! My son is taking his 2nd year of latin, and I'm learning along with him, so I may be able to help. I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by "common", do you mean "neuter"?.

 

In Latin, First Declension nouns are not just feminine nouns... masculine nouns can also be declined as first declensions.

Second declension nouns have NO feminine nouns. Masculine and Neuter only.

So...

auriga, ae - charioteer is this feminine because of first declension, or is it masculine because of a charioteer in ancient times being a man?

It is masculine, AND is a first declension, as are words like agricola, nauta, and poeta... all words that have to do with a traditionally male occupation. weird, huh?

 

The ending of the words can give you a clue as to their gender and declension:

Feminine and some masculine:

1st decl - a,ae

Masculine:

2nd decl - us, i

2nd decl. - er, i

Neuter:

2nd decl - um, i

 

So while magister might be masculine, it can also be a woman teacher, so it's changed to the 1st declension (feminine) in that case. Same with a feminine Roman (Romana) instead of Romanus, daughter (filia) instead of filius, and girl friend (amica) instead of amicus.

 

And while you may have a group of girfriends (amicae), you add ONE male, and the word changes to amici. So your example of Populus is masculine because chances are, there's atleast one man in the group! But hey, if it was a race of Amazon Women, you could say popula!

 

Also, does anyone's student really get ALL that vocab/gender/declensions perfectly memorized at some point??

Yes, absolutely. And verb conjugations. And noun cases . And when/how to use each case. And appositives. And substantive adjectives. And Adjective agreements. And ...etc etc.

I don't know how they manage it, but they do!

 

My ds started out memorizing the paradigms (word charts). Like porta, portae, portae, portam, porta. and that Nominative, Genitive, Dative etc. order could be remembered by making up a rhyme (No Good Dogs etc). But what does it all mean?? And each book we used, had a different order.

 

He's now memorized the noun "base" and that nominative means Subject, Genitive means Possessive, etc and which ending goes with which case.

He doesn't think in terms of a chart or paradigm. He thinks in terms of the words themselves, their endings and what it all means as a "package". One noun in latin can tell you the case, number, gender, and particular role in the sentence.

 

Good luck!

 

melissa

[latinteach]

Good morning! My son is taking his 2nd year of latin, and I'm learning along with him, so I may be able to help. I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by "common", do you mean "neuter"?.

 

By common gender, what is meant is that some nouns are both masculine or feminine. Gildersleeve's Latin Grammar defines these as "substantives which have but one form for masculine and feminine." Examples given: cīvis, citizen, (male or female); comes, companion; iūdex, judge.

 

In Latin, First Declension nouns are not just feminine nouns... masculine nouns can also be declined as first declensions.

 

You are correct here. Some masculine nouns are first declension.

 

Second declension nouns have NO feminine nouns. Masculine and Neuter only.

 

This is not entirely true. There are some feminine second declension nouns.

Gildersleeve points out the following: Aegyptus, Egypt; Rhodus, Rhodes; pirus, a pear tree, remarking that "names of countries and islands in us...are masculine, except Aegyptus, Chius, Chersonēsus, Cyprus, Delos, Ēpīrus, Lēmnos, Peloponnēsus, Rhodus, Samos, Bosporus (the country). Many tree names that end in -us are feminine. But for the most part, the second declension is masculine and neuter, with these few exceptions. (Correction to this post made in red here.)

 

auriga, ae - charioteer is this feminine because of first declension, or is it masculine because of a charioteer in ancient times being a man?[/color]

It is masculine, AND is a first declension, as are words like agricola, nauta, and poeta... all words that have to do with a traditionally male occupation. weird, huh?

 

Gildersleeve's Latin Grammar also points out that the gender of substantives is determined by the signification for the names of animate beings. In other words, auriga is masculine, as you point out, because charioteers (farmers, sailors, poets) were masculine. For things and qualities, the termination (or ending of the word) determines gender.

 

Also, does anyone's student really get ALL that vocab/gender/declensions perfectly memorized at some point??

Yes, absolutely. And verb conjugations. And noun cases . And when/how to use each case. And appositives. And substantive adjectives. And Adjective agreements. And ...etc etc.

I don't know how they manage it, but they do!

 

The best way to do this is really to encounter these forms in context. In other words, once you start reading, writing, and listening to the language in use then it actually becomes much easier.

Edited October 10, 2009 by latinteach

[Jane in NC]

Oh Latinteach,

 

You are worth your weight in aurum.

 

Jane

[Colleen in NS]

WOW! Thank you, everyone! I'm going to come back later and comb through the replies (oh my, you guys gave me a boatload of info. I haven't come across yet - "I WILL learn this, I WILL learn this, I WILL learn this....") and probably have more questions.

 

One thing I want to double check on (since I kind of buried it in a disorganized paragraph) is, do kids really get *individual genders* of individual nouns memorized, too? Meaning, is it worth it to include *saying the gender* when they go through the cards, "mensa, ae - feminine - table" "annus, i - masculine - year" "donum, i - neuter - gift" "hostis, hostis - common - enemy"

[Brenda in MA]

One thing I want to double check on (since I kind of buried it in a disorganized paragraph) is, do kids really get *individual genders* of individual nouns memorized, too? Meaning, is it worth it to include *saying the gender* when they go through the cards, "mensa, ae - feminine - table" "annus, i - masculine - year" "donum, i - neuter - gift" "hostis, hostis - common - enemy"

Colleen,

 

What we did was to learn the basic rules, such as that first declension nouns are almost always feminine, 2nd declension are mostly masculine/neuter, etc. from Latina Christiana. Then I only marked those cards that were exceptions, like mons, montis and poeta, poetae.

 

We've found that you do have to memorize the exceptions because as you progress and start to learn adjectives and pronouns, you need to know the gender of the base word so you can match the adjective or pronoun to it. The Henle book tends to only mark the exceptions, so if there is a word in the dictionary in the back with no gender noted, it is almost always regular and follows the basic rules for gender.

 

We've also found that if you take 5 - 10 minutes/day to recite the basic forms, then you WILL learn them by heart, but it will take months and months. It's worth the time, though, because when you are stuck on an assignment, it's a lot quicker to run through the forms in your head than to look them up in the book every time.

 

HTH,

Brenda

[Colleen in NS]

my Latin dictionary (Cassell's) lists auriga as common gender, but it would most likely be declined like a 1st declension noun. Populus is listed as a masculine noun (again, from the dictionary), and magister would also be a masculine noun; magistra would be feminine and would follow the 1st declension.

 

As far as I know, all of the second declension nouns you listed would be masculine.

 

Thank you! I'm thinking a Latin dictionary might start to be useful for us.

 

It is masculine, AND is a first declension, as are words like agricola, nauta, and poeta... all words that have to do with a traditionally male occupation. weird, huh?

 

So while magister might be masculine, it can also be a woman teacher, so it's changed to the 1st declension (feminine) in that case. Same with a feminine Roman (Romana) instead of Romanus, daughter (filia) instead of filius, and girl friend (amica) instead of amicus.

 

And while you may have a group of girfriends (amicae), you add ONE male, and the word changes to amici. So your example of Populus is masculine because chances are, there's atleast one man in the group! But hey, if it was a race of Amazon Women, you could say popula!

 

Thank you! And the bit about adding one male makes the noun change to masculine - I remember that from French and Spanish classes - I wondered if it was the same in Latin.

 

There are some feminine second declension nouns. Gildersleeve points out the following: Aegyptus, Egypt; Rhodus, Rhodes; pirus, a pear tree, remarking that "names of countries and islands in us...are masculine, except Aegyptus, Chius, Chersonēsus, Cyprus, Delos, Ēpīrus, Lēmnos, Peloponnēsus, Rhodus, Samos, Bosporus (the country). Many tree names that end in -us are feminine.

 

Do you know if Henle will teach us about this?

 

Gildersleeve's Latin Grammar also points out that the gender of substantives is determined by the signification for the names of animate beings. In other words, auriga is masculine, as you point out, because charioteers (farmers, sailors, poets) were masculine. For things and qualities, the termination (or ending of the word) determines gender.

 

I wonder why Michelle's dictionary lists auriga as common - are there discrepancies between Latin grammars and dictionaries?

 

Animate beings...what do you mean by the phrase, "signification for the names of animate beings?" And, do animals change gender? For example, agnus, i or lupus, i.

 

The best way to do this is really to encounter these forms in context. In other words, once you start reading, writing, and listening to the language in use then it actually becomes much easier.

 

Ds has found this to be true, since LC2, and now with Henle. But he also does have the forms learned so far, the vocab learned so far, and the prayers pretty well memorized. I'm just balking a bit at the advice in the MP guide to mark all the cards with gender, and to recite the gender of every one of them. If Latin vocab lists only mark gender that breaks the rules, then why bother reciting gender for every one? I'm not sure why that advice is in there, but if there is a good reason, I could be persuaded...

 

Then I only marked those cards that were exceptions, like mons, montis and poeta, poetae.

 

We've found that you do have to memorize the exceptions because as you progress and start to learn adjectives and pronouns, you need to know the gender of the base word so you can match the adjective or pronoun to it. The Henle book tends to only mark the exceptions, so if there is a word in the dictionary in the back with no gender noted, it is almost always regular and follows the basic rules for gender.

 

We've also found that if you take 5 - 10 minutes/day to recite the basic forms, then you WILL learn them by heart, but it will take months and months. It's worth the time, though, because when you are stuck on an assignment, it's a lot quicker to run through the forms in your head than to look them up in the book every time.

 

HTH,

Brenda

 

Yes, I can see memorizing the gender of the exceptions - I'm just wondering how necessary it is to recite the gender of each card, as per the MP guide.

 

And thanks for confirming about doing all the other memory work - ds has been doing that and finds translation easier because of it (he is MUCH faster than I am). Just not too sure about that MP advice...any thoughts, anyone?

 

Thank you all!

[latinteach]

I wonder why Michelle's dictionary lists auriga as common - are there discrepancies between Latin grammars and dictionaries?

 

Animate beings...what do you mean by the phrase, "signification for the names of animate beings?" And, do animals change gender? For example, agnus, i or lupus, i.

 

I think that is a fancy way of saying that a Latin noun that designates a person is naturally male or female. Males (agricola, auriga, etc.) are masculine and females (Cornelia, magistra, etc.) are feminine, even though all end in -a.

 

Yes, you'll see endings change for a masculine lupus (male sheep) and a feminine lupa (she-wolf.) Just like you'll see "amicus" (friend) and "amica" (female friend.)

 

Yes, there are likely to be some discrepancies between grammars and dictionaries, but there's nothing you need to worry about too much right now that would involve getting a detailed grammar reference (like Gildersleeve or Allen and Greenough, though you may want one later on.) A good beginning dictionary is Traupman's "New College Latin and English Dictionary" (3rd edition, revised and updated, it is mass market paperback and you can find it for about five or six dollars at just about any bookstore.)

 

Ds has found this to be true, since LC2, and now with Henle. But he also does have the forms learned so far, the vocab learned so far, and the prayers pretty well memorized. I'm just balking a bit at the advice in the MP guide to mark all the cards with gender, and to recite the gender of every one of them. If Latin vocab lists only mark gender that breaks the rules, then why bother reciting gender for every one? I'm not sure why that advice is in there, but if there is a good reason, I could be persuaded...

 

You probably have only covered first and second declension so far. Just wait until you get to the third declension and then you'll understand why it is so important to memorize the genders. You are building good habits now by memorizing the genders alongside the first and second declension vocabulary. They are setting you up for the third declension, where those nominative endings aren't necessarily going to be so helpful.

 

Try not to worry about those feminine second declension nouns, they are really rare and not worth worrying about at all right now. You do need to worry about the masculine first declensions, but Henle or PL or LC or whatever introductory grammar-translation textbook you are using is highly likely to point them out to you at the time.

 

You'll get to third declension soon enough and understand why the authors of your textbook are advising that you get used to memorizing genders.

Edited October 10, 2009 by latinteach

[Colleen in NS]

I think that is a fancy way of saying that a Latin noun that designates a person is naturally male or female. Males (agricola, auriga, etc.) are masculine and females (Cornelia, magistra, etc.) are feminine, even though all end in -a.

 

Yes, you'll see endings change for a masculine lupus (male sheep) and a feminine lupa (she-wolf.) Just like you'll see "amicus" (friend) and "amica" (female friend.)

 

Sooooo, some nouns don't change endings - they just *are* masculine all the time (agricola, auriga, poeta), but some nouns change endings depending on what they designate (lupus or lupa, amicus or amica). I can see why studying this is a cultural lesson. :)

 

You probably have only covered first and second declension so far. Just wait until you get to the third declension and then you'll understand why it is so important to memorize the genders. You are building good habits now by memorizing the genders alongside the first and second declension vocabulary. They are setting you up for the third declension, where those nominative endings aren't necessarily going to be so helpful.

 

Try not to worry about those feminine second declension nouns, they are really rare and not worth worrying about at all right now. You do need to worry about the masculine first declensions, but Henle or PL or LC or whatever introductory grammar-translation textbook you are using is highly likely to point them out to you at the time.

 

I think you've persuaded me.:D

 

We actually have covered all of the declensions. LC2 ends by having introduced up to fifth declension. That third declension in LC2 was a killer. In Henle now, we are mostly reviewing everything learned in LC1 and 2, so it's a breath of fresh air for now. But it's good, because I am hashing my way through understanding third declension a little more. (thinking out loud here now) I went through the third declension rules in the Henle Grammar book again the other day to try to understand how third declension nouns get classified into masc., fem., and neuter. And then to understand how they get classified into "i-stem" nouns. And all the exceptions to these things. And then to understand how nouns like mare, maris get declined and why. I thought my head was going to explode. Henle does have rules to help classify third declension into genders, and it's helpful, but it's also different than what LC2 taught....you know, I think I *can* see now why it would be good to just go ahead and memorize the genders of *each* noun. With third declension, we have to stop and think about each one, go through the rules to classify them, and maybe it would be easier to just classify them once, put it on the card, and memorize it.

 

I showed ds your reply to me, esp. the bolded part and he had to explain to me what you meant (I'm 41 and my brain just doesn't absorb as quickly anymore - I keep telling him he is so lucky to be learning all this stuff as a kid). Yep, I totally get it now - the third declension nominative endings are a jumble.:D

 

Please tell me if there are any errors in my thinking. And thank you very much for your help!!!

 

And someone please tell me again that it's OK that I'm learning alongside (and a little more slowly than) my son??

[Jane in NC]

 

And someone please tell me again that it's OK that I'm learning alongside (and a little more slowly than) my son??

 

It is not only OK, Colleen, it is admirable!

[Colleen in NS]

It is not only OK, Colleen, it is admirable!

 

Oh, thank you!:D