"Income redistribution" is not necessarily about making sure everyone is equal (maybe someone defines it that way, but most people that I know of do not). I happen to believe that access to nutritious food, medical services, quality housing, and transportation are very basic human rights, particularly in a country as wealthy as ours. I agree that our government as it operates today would screw it up. But one look at any other 1st world nation (Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Switzerland) proves that it doesn't have to be that way. A society can choose to care for its own and still have tremendous wealth, even individual wealth. The "MINE MINE MINE" attitude is always perplexing to me. No, I don't want the government taking all of my money and deciding where it goes anymore than you would. You do realize that's not how it works, don't you?

Yeah. Ok.

When I say "luck", that doesn't mean that things were just handed to anyone. Obviously that's sometimes the case, but usually not. What I mean is that for all of the people that worked hard and sacrificed and ended up like your family did, there are just as many that work hard and sacrifice and never get ahead. It could be the macro economy. It could be an illness. It could be someone turning left when they could have turned right. It could be any set of circumstances. The same effort and sacrifice does not always come with a happily ever after.

I'm out of likes again, but yes, you are correct. This was my point.

I'm missing nothing. Obviously, it's not about college being the end-all, be-all for every person. You stated that there are very few people who should not be able to make whatever of themselves that they choose to make of themselves, because if you did it, and people you know did it, then by god everyone should be able to do it. Whatever "it" may be. I gave a very specific example of a very large, societal issue to illustrate that, while I used to believe the same as you, I now know that I was uninformed. Family and community expectations go a long way to shape outcomes. If the expectation is that you'll go to college, and that's what you hear your whole life, you probably will. If the expectation is that you'll go into the military, and that's what's drilled into you your whole life, chances are you just might go into the military. If the expectation is that you'll quit high school and get whatever job you can get as soon as you're able, because the family needs the income, then odds are good that's the route you'll take, whether or not that would have been what you wanted to do. It's not as simple as "well, I achieved something, so everyone else should be able to, too." And with that, I think I'm done here. Actually, just writing that last paragraph helped me to answer some of my own questions from my original post, so at least I got that out of it.

You're missing my point entirely. Or, ignoring it.

I completely agree. I used to feel the exact same way as you (I think) about people doing things with their lives. My family had nothing. We struggled, I figured out a way to get myself through college, without assistance, so on and so forth. So, I thought if I could do it, then anyone could do it. I had no money. My parents did not assist. My parents had no connections. I've since realized that's not really the case, and my point of view was limited. First, while my parents did not assist, they also did not hinder. They always talked about college as if it were a foregone conclusion for me, so I never really figured I had another option. For others, the expectation is that they'll get a job as soon as they can and contribute to the family. My ex-husband's mother used to tell him that he didn't need college, he probably wouldn't make it anyway, that college wasn't for him. You hear that your entire life, that's typically going to become your reality. He's a smart man and could have done whatever he wanted, but a lifetime of hearing something otherwise will do a number on you. She grew up in Colombia, and had several brothers in the prison system for cocaine trafficking. She figured if her son was working and bringing in money and keeping his head down, he could avoid all of that mess. In her mind, she was helping him. In his, she contributed to keeping him from becoming what he could have been. For many people, it's a lot more than just their mother. It's their entire community. And while some people do get beyond that (hello, Oprah?), I still say that a lot of luck comes into play, too.

Yep, no one knows. It's still just really interesting to think about. For me, anyway.

And this is where you and I disagree.

What bothers me is not the being proud of the achievements. I agree that everyone is, or should be (in my opinion) no matter what they are. Achievements should be celebrated! Money, however, and financial status, is not something that should be either proud of or ashamed of. In and of itself, it's just a thing. If you happen to have it, you may be a good or a bad person. If you don't, you may be a good or a bad person. I just don't think either financial status is necessarily a reflection on who you are as a person, or how hard you've worked, or what you "deserve". Like I said before, a lot of it has to do with luck, frankly. I refinanced my house about a year ago. The closing attorney came to my house and we got to talking, figured out we had some friends in common...you know, just chit-chat. It somehow came out that she only makes about $33,000 a year in her job. After all those years of education, that's the best she could do because the profession is saturated where we live, and it's just a matter of too many lawyers for too few jobs. I have two friends who are also real estate attorneys, one who focuses on closings, too, and while I don't know her exact income I do know that it is considerably more than that. Somewhere in the six figures. So, like I said, luck and circumstance. Conversely, I happen to have gone to college with some people who barely made it through school, partied all the time, not that bright, frankly, but when we graduated the job market was booming. Almost everyone, simply by virtue of the fact that we were born the year we were born, and happened to somehow scrape by (or excel, whichever) in undergrad, had multiple job offers. When my niece, who is brilliant and worked her butt off to get through school, graduated, there were no jobs. She ended up as an Administrative Assistant, and because that's the only experience she has, that's the profession she has been stuck in for several years (I say "stuck" only because that's not what she wanted to do, not that there's anything wrong with it). Again, luck.

Except I'm not talking about judging. Yes, we all do. I'm talking about circumstances and events that have shaped our attitudes a out money, and how even people who have come from the exact same circumstances can form completely different conclusions.

First, sorry that you cried yourself to sleep. That's always sucky. Second, I'd suggest you stop giving money to people if you expect them to do with it exactly and only as you see fit. It's a reasonable expectation, but they're not going to do it, you'll continue to be pissed off, and you're the only one stressing about it while they enjoy their new rug, kwim? I'll leave the rest alone. It does seem like something you're actively struggling with, though, so I really hope you find some peace about it all. Sorry if my thread caused you any worry!

It's 8:27 in the morning and I'm already out of likes. Great.

I completely agree with the your first two paragraphs. I think it's unconscionable that human beings do not have access to things that area so basic just for survival. It seems to me that as a community, especially one as large and as rich as the United States (for example), this should be a no brainer. How could anyone possibly not want these basic, simple things for their fellow human beings? Why do we not demand it? Beyond that, go build your wealth. Good for you. Champagne riches and caviar dreams and all that. But the rest of it? Boggles my mind that everyone doesn't have it. It's not like the money doesn't exist in this country, and I'm not talking about personal wealth. As for not being worried about Americans, I disagree with you there. I, too, have seen crazy poverty in other parts of the world. But the little kid in the Bronx who hasn't eaten in two days is just as much of a tragedy as the one in Honduras. In fact, the mental health coverage you talked about better be really, really good, because it has to be ridiculously hard to see up close and personal all that wealth and excess when your own belly is rumbling, kwim?

I actually don't fully agree with Sadie on this subject, but I do get where she's coming from, and I firmly believe that the problem with the disparity between the wealthy and the poor is at some point going to cause empires to crumble. History has proven that. I also don't see anything wrong with pursuing achievement, and the compensation that comes with achievement in certain fields. Still, if pursuing the highest possible income and having nice things is something to be proud of, it stands to reason that the opposite, lack of that income and wealth, should come with shame. It's that very "look at me and all I have and all I have achieved" mantra that doesn't sit well with many, myself included. Because the truth is, luck has a hell of a lot to do with people's financial standing, both good and bad. One's financial standing is not always (usually not) a reflection on how hard someone is working or not working. But honestly, these issues are different than what I originally was looking for when I started this thread, so I'd rather not get into the Big Topics that have been hashed out on this board time and again (class privilege, race, subjugation of women, and so on).

Good to see you back!

Well, yes, I definitely agree with that. I don't think that's the case 100% of the time, though.

Yeah, I know people who do as well. I don't really care one way or the other. I've just never actually come across someone who makes that kind of money before, so of course I made judgments about what they could/should afford, and why they weren't doing it a different way.

I completely get your point of view. I remember you've said some things similarly previously. What I'm really curious about, though, is where it came from. Not just yours, but everyone's. We all came into the world naked and crying, and then things happened to us, and we witnessed things, and here we are as grown people, some of us with completely different perspectives on the exact same issue. And the thing is, money is a shared experience for most of us here. Meaning, most of us were born and raised in developed countries, or live in them now, so we at least have that as a common denominator. Some were raised with money, some weren't; some have money now and some don't, but from what I'm reading neither of those things necessarily have resulted in the same shared point of view today on this issue. So what is it in all of your life experience that got you to where you are today, and others here have come to a completely different conclusion. The general "you", I mean. You, me, all of us. And, since you brought up socialism, I find it even more interesting that your perspective seems to be quite different from the actual people I know living in a socialist country that I referenced earlier. Not looking for answers, really. Just thinking about it all.

And this, I think, is the entire point!

I haven't heard of Dorothy Allison. I'll go look her up.

He was driving 33 miles each way, in horrible traffic. Now he works less than a mile from home. It's nice.

That's the same thing I asked! It was a VW Tourag (or however you spell it). Not a cheap car, but I'd still think he could just write a check. Apparently it was a "running around car" for his wife, and they just leased it. Again, whatever floats their boat.

I post most everything. If people know me, they know that it would never be my intent to brag or show someone up or make people feel anxious. That's not what I'm about. But I'm on social media to share my life, and it's fun to share things that make you excited! I want to see what my friends are doing, and I want to share my excitement with them, so I do. I figure I'd want to see it from them, too, no matter what it is. But yeah, I know what you mean. For sure.

Ha! He did, for more than 20 years. He moved to cars a couple of months ago and cut his commute by more than 60 miles a day.