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Ordinary Shoes

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  1. I'm also an older mom. While I find that I am usually the oldest mom, there isn't that much of a difference in age. It's not like the other moms are all in their young 20's. Generally speaking, I'm usually about 10 years older than most of the other moms and that's not that much of a difference to me. And speaking as the mother of an only child, you should try to address anxiety that stands in the way of your child's social life, especially if she is so unhappy. There are plenty of times that I don't want to put myself out there but I try to make myself because it's for my kid. I don't m
  2. That's the average cost. There are children whose education would cost considerably more than the average. So I don't think providing every family with the average amount per child would always be sufficient. The most significant cost of homeschooling is the opportunity cost of a non-working spouse. I work full time and homeschool but I have an only child. I have no idea how I could do what we do if we had more children.
  3. And the public school has to accept the child. People constantly gripe about public school spending but there are expenses associated with meeting all of the legally mandated requirements for public schools, including accepting every student. Take the example of the Kiryas Joel community. They created a public school system for disabled children but the rest of the children attend the community's private schools. The private schools can't afford to provide the services that can be provided in a public school.
  4. How is a school supposed to function if kids are pulled out and put back in frequently? Of course, it's not different from kids moving from school to school. There is no standard curriculum in the USA since Common Core failed. In the USA, we ask our public schools to do the impossible. Yes, they should serve the community but how can a school function if kids come back and forth from homeschooling? I'm not sure that parents are supposed to feel that the school is doing a great job. There's never been the promise of a "great" education, just an adequate one. I disagree t
  5. Yes, but I was responding to the compulsory education laws in Finland. It is strange that many states do not require education before age 6 or after age 16 when you look at how school works. Say you keep your kid out of school until age 6, how many schools will allow you to enroll that child as a 2nd grader? In fact, I can't think of any child I've ever known who did not attend kindergarten unless they were homeschooled. That raises an interesting question. If there was not compulsory education laws but school was still free, would most children still attend school? IDK.
  6. In theory, homeschooled kids should have more interactions with adults than kids in school. One of the artificial things about SCHOOLtm is how children are separated from adults. I remember in my first grownup *real* job post grad school how strange it was to work with people who were...<gasp>...the same age I am now. Up until that point, I interacted with adults as parents, teachers, and parents of friends. Now I was supposed to be friends with someone who was my mother's age? More normal interactions with adults can help a child to know how to interact with adults and help avoid
  7. Most American states don't require compulsory school attendance for 12 years even though most American students attend for 13 years. You make a good point about the successes attributed to the system but not the failures. And of course it's ridiculous to compare Finland to the USA given the very significant differences in demographics between the two nations.
  8. Agreed, and that's tricky. Literacy rates are a good measure but how is it is measured?
  9. Yes, it does depend on that. What is education? What is the purpose of education? Finland's system is very different from our own. They emphasize different things. But reading, writing, and arithmetic are required just as they are in the USA. By all measures, compulsory education laws have not "dumbed down" the Fins. Many American states do not require education post age 16 so it's not that different from Finland in terms of compulsory education requirements. Defenders of Gatto's theories have to grapple with the success of countries like Finland or Japan. Why would their success
  10. Yes, sorry I confused you and Miss Lemon. You posted the picture and she posted the 1% thing. I'll repeat what I asked MissLemon when I got the two of you confused. I hope you can engage with what SneezyOne wrote.
  11. Yes, sorry. I remembered that shortly after I wrote that post and was coming here to correct it.
  12. I'd like you to think about what Sneezyone wrote in a deeper way than finding some picture of Gatto from internet with a group of AA students.
  13. The idea of conformity is fascinating. I wrote above how this thread is a textbook example of the phenomenon. It's also very relevant to any discussion about education. Conforming does not make someone mindless. Conformity is normal. There are certainly differences on the importance placed on conformity in different cultures. And personality type is important as well. But the key thing to remember is the conformity is normal. Every group attempts to promote conformity and all of us attempt to conform in some way. Cass Sunstein, well-regarded law professor, has written on this topic
  14. Yes, actually I am trying to help you out. Dig a bit deeper. Challenge yourself. When you're feeling indignant (like you are now) is when you make the most logical fallacies. Engage with people with whom you disagree. That's when you grow. And before you get indignant about that - everyone needs to grow. Here's the thing - when you write in a thread something that is patently ridiculous like only 1% of what is happening on the school Zoom calls is about content you should be expect to be called out for it. If there is any kind of free exchange of ideas here, someone will question that. T
  15. If you look outside of the United States you can find plenty of examples of countries with compulsory education laws (conflating community with country here) that come very close to educating nearly everyone. North Korea (granted, not the best example) supposedly has one of the highest literacy rates in the world at 99%. Japan is another good example. Also, Canada and the EU countries. If Gatto's criticisms of compulsory educations laws held water, the results would be seen across all nations with compulsory education laws but they're not. Of course there are many societal differences be
  16. That's not a particularly good answer. Communities will self-correct but where does that leave the individual children who came before the self-correction? Besides, like I already wrote society has decided that individual communities and/or families cannot opt out of education. You may not like it but it's a reality. So we're not willing to allow a community to decide to not educate their daughters or not educate the children of their lower classes or whatever. Agreed but the dye is already cast. Our society makes all kinds of decisions about what is acceptable for individual fa
  17. You're reading that in to what I wrote I actually did not make any judgments about my hypotheticals. Our society believes that women and men should have equal access to education so a community that does not believe that women should be educated should not be allowed to exclude women from education. That's ultimately the problem with local and family control. We as a society have decided that there are some minimum standards. It's not a matter of judgment about "those people" being stupid or bad or whatever.
  18. I've already done some research on literacy rates during the revolutionary period. It's all speculative.
  19. 4 out of 5 American adults <> New England whites during Revolutionary times. What were the literacy rates for 4 out of 5 adults living in all 13 colonies during Revolutionary times? I want to clarify something about my position. I asked about universal literacy. You could assume, even though I did NOT write this, that I believe that universal literacy is the ultimate goal of education. We could have a different goal for the education of our children. However, society's goal is literacy so that is why I asked specifically about literacy. So I will ask again,
  20. Let's say we leave education to the family and local community. What if the local community or family does not believe that women should be educated? Or believes that child should not learn about evolution? I could go on and on here. Is there an example of any country where universal literacy has been obtained that allowed families and/or local communities to dictate what kind of education was required?
  21. This thread is a perfect example of group conformity whether you see it or not. Why do you perceive my disagreement as "taking it out on [you]"? Disagreements are not attacks. However, they are often perceived as attacks when group dynamics are at play. Granted my response to the person who wrote about the 99% thing bordered on an attack. But that claim was over the top ridiculous. And going back to a response from you from a few weeks ago because you're alluding to it here. You claimed that the only place women ever told you how to feel was on this forum. How are the women o
  22. The dynamics of groups are fascinating. It's hard to see it when you're in the middle of it. The need for conformity is so strong. This reminds me of something that frequently happens to me. Someone tells me that they want to go to law school. I advise against it. They respond, "I'm sorry that you hated law school." (I went to law school, BTW.) No, that's not what I said.
  23. I think you've completely missed the point of those who have criticized his ideas. I've not dismissed the way that society has been shaped by the public schools. That's pretty obvious, IMHO. School shapes society but society created the schools. Who has said that public schools are necessary for society?
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