Sputterduck
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Posts posted by Sputterduck
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Generally forever.
But I lost a lot of weight with Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead so my mom bought me a whole new wardrobe for Christmas. :) Good thing, too, because most of my clothes had holes and I'm far too cheap to buy any clothes for myself. (I'm trying to change that.)
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Not my preference, but I've been to churches with 10,000 and 13,000 people. I can't imagine the logistics on that. In that case, it's such a huge undertaking that I wouldn't blame anyone.
The 8,000 cup package is 1,300 dollars. Whoa nelly. I wonder how much money is spent for communion in the large churches I've been to... I guess a little bit of juice/wine and bread adds up rather quickly if you have enough people.
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Woah! My baby picture comes up...
With my legal name (haven't changed it since exh left) other, much prettier people come up. lol
But with my maiden name, it's my baby pic! Weird. And a few lines down, pics of friends I have on google+.
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Yes, it's BHS/BHS! Lol
For those of us who don't know gymnastics, what is that?
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That looks incredibly painful.
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I would go to the doctor in case of blood clot.
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OR that Christians believe that Jews got the opportunity to jump on the Jesus bandwagon and didn't and therefore will be persecuted throughout history for their mistake or until Jesus returns and all Jews will be toasty crispies in Hell for all eternity. :crying:
I don't just mean persecution from Christians. I mean also by Nazis, Muslims, etc. also. You've all had it from all sides.
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I know that a lot of Christians believe that Jewish history has been so awful because the are the chosen people of God and thus Satan has a special need to hurt them. :(
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It does bother me to be perceived as somewhat non-monotheistic, by the way. I assure you, I have one God. I know that's a whole long discussion though. :p
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Totally honestly - I am NOT trying to get away with not "really" answering and giving you some kind of a diplomatic generalization instead - the answer to all of these questions truly is: "It depends on whom you ask."
These are complex, often contradictory attitudes; I would say that the fundamental problem is not in theology per se, but in the historicity of that theology and the circumstances in which it was framed.
I would have to be in one of my non-insomniac phases to elaborate on a high strung topic like this "properly"; a sound-bite version, and a very superficial one, would be this:
1. There are different categories of a Gentile. The attitudes are different towards an idolater (with all the burden, not only theological, but also socio-historical, that that category conveyed) and towards a righteous Gentile who follows the seven Noachide laws.
. 1.1 There are different socio-historical realities in which Jews and Gentiles (of any type) may coexist. The perception and the rules of the game in exile are different than the rules of the game in a halachic Jewish state, for example.
2. There are different opinions as to the Gentile's relationship with God. One of the Noachide laws is the prohibition against idolatry. Taken very seriously, this prohibition basically makes it impossible for a Gentile to be righteous without accepting the Jewish notion of the one and unique God. Nothing is said, however, about ways in which Gentiles "ought" to connect with God.
. 2.1 What is known, however, is that there is a set of practices which are "signs" - signs of the Jewish covenant with God - which are forbidden to Gentiles. Also, since Jewish practices are, well, centered around the idea of a nation singled out from all other nations for a specific duty unique to them alone, it is awkward, at best, if a Gentile takes place in a fully fledged religious lifestyle the way Jews are required to, even if we disregard those practice he ought not do because they are reserved for Jews.
3. Are they looked down on... I would not word it that way. Jews are chosen, but chosen does not necessarily mean superior in any way, it means being destined to be singled out and fulfill a very specific mission unique to them. Like I said earlier, it is like two separate modes of being, both of which are valid and right for people in that category and not for people in the other category.
. 3.1 There is a generally accepted opinion that the possession of a "Jewish soul" in and of itself makes one closer to God. Gentiles do not have a Jewish soul, obviously.
4. About a real genuine relationship with God, that would depend on the limitations of how far you take 3.1. In some more extreme versions, nope, because connection via a Jewish soul is the only truly significant one, the only "real thing" (basically). In less extreme versions, sure, but I do not think that anyone actually denies that being Jewish makes for a different (not necessarily "more", but qualitatively different) connection with God? Maybe there are such opinions, but I have not encountered them.
5. Righteous Gentiles get into the next world.
What if the Gentile breaks one or more of those laws? How does one recover from that? Is it as simple as repenting and God forgiving and all being well for the afterlife?
I understand the need to be careful in your response. :) The internet can be a hard medium. You never know how your words will be taken and you never know who is reading. I do appreciate you giving me what you can.
Reading the Old Testament as a child, I remember feeling... less than. Why couldn't I be Jewish. Would God love me more? It's good to know that there is a concept of "righteous Gentile".
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Can I take a stab at this one? This is from an Orthodox Jewish perspective.
The Jewish religion/G-d made two types of people, Jews and non-Jews. Jews through people such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph became a chosen people which with the help of Moses left the land of Egypt (that's why we celebrate Passover) and soon thereafter took on the covenant vows (which are fulfilled by doing mitzvot -commandments) with G-d at Mt Sinai. At that point we were not only a tribe/people, we became a distinct religion. That obviously leaves out the rest of the world, right? Unlike Christianity, which believes that an unsaved person is destined for Hell, Judaism believes that non-Jews are not obligated at all in the 613 commandments that Jews are. The rabbis devined out seven more basic laws for non-Jews now known as the Sheva Mitzvot b'nei Noach (the seven commandments of the children of Noah).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah
If a non-Jew is able to follow those laws, they are rewarded (Heavenly style that is) as much as a Jew who fulfilled the mitzvot that they were commanded. We believe non-Jews should have a full and rich relationship with G-d, there need not be any intermediary such as Jesus. A B'nei Noach/monotheist/Muslim (and some say any Christian because there is debate whether Christianity is monotheistic enough) can pray to G-d, celebrate aspects of Jewish holidays and be aligned with the Jewish people and G-d.
Now if you ask about how Jews see Gentiles, you have to step WAY back to see Christian-Jewish history --most of it REALLY bad for the Jews. But as a Classical HSer you knew that. So in some ways it is hard for a Jew not have a viceral jolt when you see a missionary knocking on your door or Christmas stuff everywhere. I don't think most Jews hate Gentiles, but we are different and we are enjoined by our religion to keep it that way. We keep kosher which means you (Sputterduck) you have a hard time having my family over for a casual meal. We can't drink non-Jewish made wine, we can't (in general) enter into your place of worship. So a close relationship is harder to achieve.
Did I answer your questions?
Well, that is fascinating. Thank you for the response and for linking that article.
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Perhaps I am just speaking from my own personal experience. My SBC preacher dad would have a stroke.
I'm sorry about that. I have no experience with the SBC. Why does your dad feel like that?
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Y'know Sputterduck, it's not fair! You are fresher than I am (it's much later here!!). :tongue_smilie:
Christians have not disowned the lineage because then there would be no Christianity! You have to base the whole Jesus thing (Messiah to save the world, fulfillment of prophesy, blah blah blah) from someplace and that someplace is Judaism. Islam is the other "daughter" of Judaism and it couldn't work if there were no Judaism. You can't fulfill anything if there is no beginning and something to be fulfilled. If there was no Isiah 50-whatever (with its mis-translation for Christians) there would be no need for Christ/Messiah to die and be resurrected and come again (Judaism doesn't believe in any of this by the way to be a fulfillment for the Messiah). It's VERY important to Christians and has been deadly in the past for Jews (now it's just mostly annoying).
That's my point. :tongue_smilie:
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Ester Maria, since you're being honest, I have a question. What do Jewish people think about Gentiles? What about their relationship with God? Are they looked down on at all? Can a Gentile have a genuine, real relationship with God? What is the thought of God, eternity, and Gentiles?
Okay, that was multiple questions. I promise no offense will be taken. I am curious, though.
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Sure they would love it if it meant conversion. But if a Muslim was happy with Islam and just felt like celebrating Christmas just because? Knotted panties all over the place.
I don't think so at all.
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:lol: I love Jewish history. It is fascinating. But I am not a Jew. Jews do their thing and Christians do our thing. That's ok.
I wonder how Christians would feel if a Muslim came here and asked how to celebrate Advent. Honestly, they would freak. I'm guessing that's how the Jews feel when Christians ask how to celebrate a Seder (sp?). Or rename sacred Jewish holidays. We have our own holidays. We have a whole liturgical calendar! We don't need to corrupt the sacred Jewish holidays to live a full Christian life (no insult intended)
Wow, why do you say that?? Every Christian I know would *love* that. What Christian doesn't love to share their ways? People complain that Christians are far too eager to talk about their religion and share their ways.
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I *think* that I can, however, I keep running into some conceptual stumbling blocks because I am having an extremely hard time even entertaining the idea that Christianity may be considered a Judaic phenomenon, something which organically grew from Judaism as one of its "forms" (for lack of a better expression). To quote an intellect much sharper than mine who managed to capture the very essence of how I view it: "The relationship between Christianity and Judaism is like a relationship between Hamlet and the culture of Denmark. In other words, there is. no. relationship to speak of."
The tight relationship between the two exists in the Christian perspective... not in the Jewish one. From the Jewish perspective, Christianity is, at best, entirely theologically insignificant (and, unfortunately, very historically relevant in a negative sense), and at worst, an "impostor" on its holy text pretending to be "true" Judaism (i.e. "fulfilled" Judaism). And I am so sorry for being this honest :(, I hope you are not taking any of this personally, just trying to communicate, or rationalize in words, what is so problematic about it in my eyes.
I love honesty. I don't mind. I promise. :)
Christianity was considered a Jewish sect. It grew enough to be considered it's own thing rather quickly. And it also started including gentiles rather quickly. But it was considered a "dangerous" Jewish sect.
"The earliest followers of Jesus composed an apocalyptic, Second Temple Jewish sect, which historians refer to as Jewish Christianity."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_early_Christianity
"Among the significant events of the last century of the Second Temple period was the emergence of the Jesus Movement."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple_Judaism
It did emerge from and among Judaism and still uses Jewish scriptures. I get that you have disowned the lineage, but Christians have not. In fact, it is still very important to Christians.
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Honestly, not really. I've nothing against you personally or Christians as a whole or even those (IMHO) misguided Christians who mangle Hebrew prayers, mangle the Jewish holidays to suit their Christian biases, wear corny yarmulkes and three inch wide prayer shawls or pin "fringes" on their pants and yell SHALOM! to me the identifiable Jew. But why can't they be a Christian, not a wanna-be Jew. If they want to give up the belief in Jesus as a deity and really be Jewish, I'll be the first one to welcome them. If a Christian wants to come to my house and see what Shabbat/Passover/Sukkot is like in a Jewish home, come on over, but twisting the beauty of Judaism to fit the mold of Christianity is corruption pure and simple. Let Jews celebrate Judaism. If it so holy, let the people who were given it (and didn't abrogate it in a new covenant) observe it.
I can't just let it go (and that's why I am Jewish).
Peace out,
Yael
Well, I'm sorry and understanding can't be reached. Hopefully you can understand that they mean no harm and that they consider holy what you consider holy, but they just aren't educated enough on parts of it.
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Not when viewed from this side of the fence... :(
I understand. But would there be Christianity without Judaism? No. Jesus was Jewish. All of the first Christians were Jewish. Christians consider themselves adopted into God's family, while considering the Jews God's family. We understand the meaning of our covenant through your covenant. We consider your forefathers our religious forefathers. We got the first half of our holy book from your holy writings. We study it with all sincerity and a loving heart. We consider your God our God.
I get where you are coming from. Can you understand where we are coming from?
I don't know why I'm even in this thread. I don't celebrate Jewish holidays. I do, however, hate it when sincere, loving, well-meaning people are misunderstood. It's a sad thing.
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They were supposed to make people uncomfortable.
You may like when people drink green beer and eat corned beef (which as I heard, y'all got from the Jews!), but would you like it if people took the horrible historical wars/colonialization of Ireland by the English and "wear" it/assimilate it/playact it themselves in a regular observance, especially if they thought the English were right to help the Irish become civilized? I don't think so. Your history is sacred to you, reading and learning is something completely different and should be encouraged.
Well, the Irish don't drink green beer and they don't have a dish of corned beef and cabbage. So it's all corrupted and not Irish. Oh well, party on people. It *does* bother me when people play bagpipes on St. Patrick's day. :eek: Those are Scottish. There is a joke, "Do you know where the Scottish got bagpipes? The Irish gave them to them as a joke, only they haven't gotten it yet." :lol:
The Irish play the uilleann pipes, thank you very much.
You don't want to know how I'd react if someone thought the English were correct in their actions against the Irish. I did go to Ireland and talk to people there about what's happened. Many mentioned attempted genocide.
My history is sacred to me. :) And so it yours. Yet Judaism is a Christian's religious history, if not his/her racial history. People want to acknowledge that, yet they don't know how. I betcha they would love to know how to do it with respect, without corrupting what they also consider holy. Is that fair enough?
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Walking a really rocky territory now :D, but personally, the only visceral reaction I get is about what I perceive as distorting of what I somehow feel connected to.
Corruptions on your side of the fence may aesthetically displease me (the whole consumerist atmosphere of Christmas, etc.), but they will not rub me the wrong way in a way that a corruption of something I still hold, on some level, dear, will. I will think, "what a shame for what could be a meaningful holiday for this people", but there will be an absence of that deep emotional negative reaction, because I simply do not have that level of attachment to it. Although, having grown up in a Catholic milieu, I have a special soft spot for Catholics :tongue_smilie:, but it is still not something I would incorporate in my life. So sure, I take kids to Vatican *as tourists*, I have them visit a mass *as tourists* and learn about the mass structure, and art, and music, and the formative relationship between Catholicism and their country, etc., but none of that is actual religious practice. Likewise, people who wish to learn about Judaism are typically warmly welcomed to do so - but while keeping that delicate and respectful line of separation. Being a "tourist" is one thing, appropriating other people's heritage and incorporating it into your life will typically be seen as a disruption of those good fences which make good neighbors. ;)
I do agree that respect should always be there. I think that if someone is going to go the route of celebrating Jewish holidays, a good deal of effort should be taken to educate oneself on the topic. Corrupting the holidays is not cool. I still can't fault someone from celebrating something that is part of their religious heritage. Also, I still can't fault people for doing something while meaning well with no intention of offense. If respect is meant, perhaps some education will help those causing the feelings of disrespect. As I said before, grace on both sides is a good thing. :)
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OK, now that I have taken the wee one to the bathroom, I think I can give another analogy people might get a chuckle from (since I have given some chuckles so far this evening -- am I on a (challah) roll?):
With apologies to SWB and Peace Press:
Activities you'll never see in the AG of SOTW (or why Jews like Christians to celebrate their own holidays)
1. When studying slavery in early America, put blackface (recipe included in the AG) on your children and have them get beaten, raped and forcibly separated from other family members (did I mention I am Black in addition to being an Orthodox Jew?)
2. When studying how the Native Americans got evicted/cheated of their lands in early American history, recreate the Trail of Tears with half your kids in brownface and fake feather costumes (which of course you made yourself -- you are a real HSer right?!?) and the other half carrying around guns made of paper towel insides. (did I mention I am 1/16 Cherokee too?)
In other words, this stuff is someone's family history and you don't just take someone's family history and adopt if for yourself (especially when twisting the ideas therein to fit your goals). Judaism is my family's history -- we think that history for us (Jews) is not linear (like our beloved timelines), rather it is a spiral and WE (as a people) cycle through the event (Passover, Sukkot) over and over. Kind of like the movie Groundhog Day, but with better food. We'd prefer you don't mess with it...
Still with Jewish Homeschooling love,
Yael
Being Irish is my family's history, but everyone is welcome to celebrate St. Patrick's day. Everyone is also welcome to study the Great Famine and the way the Irish were treated by the English. But then again the Irish love a good party and are pretty open to those wanting to know more about their history.
I'm not sure what to say about your examples, though. They made me pretty uncomfortable. Remembering and learning about something is quite different than what you said. And, yes, I understand that you meant to make a chuckle with those examples.
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I am a member of the LDS faith who lived with an Orthodox Jewish family as their nanny for almost a year. They were observant enough to have separate kitchens to keep everything kosher. I celebrated the sabbath with them as well as all the other holidays that came along. I loved welcoming the sabbath at sundown on Friday. When I got married & was no longer living there the family gave me a beautiful Menorah that I use every year. That being said, I do not go all out & celebrate the holy holidays. I discuss them with my children, but would never playact at a ritual or ceremony that someone else holds sacred. I would be offended if someone not of my faith went through a facsimile of the sacrament I celebrate even down to the prayers & other rituals. I have been to other homeschooling groups that celebrate Passover & there is always a faint odor dismissal as if to say; "And this is now unnecessary because of Jesus, yay us!" As I said before I do get out my menorah but that is the equivalent of celebrating a secular holiday like Thanksgiving or Flag Day.
I understand that people do not mean to offend and that I could be accused of being intolerant of those who just want to learn, but I have to ask, if you wanted to learn about the Catholic faith, would you check a book out of the library and then celebrate your own mass at home?
Just my opinion,
Amber in SJ
I have a friend who did that because he was afraid to go into a real church and ask about it. He still hasn't to this day and is still fascinated by Catholicism. I don't think Catholics would mind. I think they'd say, "Dude... why don't you just come to mass."
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And I think you'll find that those are the traditions and holiday aspects that tend to be celebrated by non-Christians who celebrate Christmas. Bunnies, chicks, and eggs don't have much to do with the Resurrection, although they may have had Christian meanings grafted onto them at a later date (have they?), but they do have a pretty direct and obvious connection to pagan fertility/springtime celebrations.
You have a point in that those who celebrate those holidays in a non-Christian manner do focus on the aspects that come from paganism. That's fair enough.
"although they may have had Christian meanings grafted onto them at a later date (have they?)"
No, Christian meanings haven't been grafted onto them. The tree doesn't mean anything, nor do the lights. The bunny, nope, nothing. Colored eggs, no. At least as far as I've ever known. Maybe someone made something up at some point, but if so, I've never heard of it.
I was an adult before I found out that Easter had anything to do with Christianity. I kid you not! Like I said, I grew up in a non-religious family. Now, I consider the most important Christian holiday. Jesus's resurrection is the most important thing, really. I mean, without that, we have nothing.
Christians who observes Jewish holidays
in General Education Discussion Board
Posted
Well, if someone did that I would think, "Well, that makes them one step closer to doing what God wants us to do." I would think it was a good thing, even if they totally messed it up.