[Struggling with Foerster Algebra 2]

Our math online tutor Mrs. Flynn uses chapters 1-8 for her Algebra 2 course, and chapters 9-15 for her Pre-Calc course, each course taking a year, and I think she calls them both honors. If you want to see which problem she assigns, check out her tab for homework calendar under the tab called student resources. That may be helpful to see what someone who teaches an honors-level, vigorous math course expects for those difficult problems.

[Give me your best non fiction and fiction for 1850-present]

I'd highly recommend Fate of Africa by Martin Meredith, if you're wanting world history. It goes through each African country after they get their independence, so it covers about 1950-2000, maybe 2010. Very readable. If you want a novel to go with it, try Cry the Beloved Country by Alan Paton.

[Spectrum Chemistry reviews? Should I get something else?]

I am looking for reviews of Spectrum Chemistry by Dobbins. I was given a first ed. textbook, so I can use that, but I'd need to still purchase the lab kit plus lab workbook and teacher's edition. We are currently finishing up Rainbow science, his junior high curriculum, and I'm not sure I want to stick with this company. I'm thinking of switching my junior high science curric because of the negatives, but having spent so much money on the lab kit, I don't really want to switch. But I've got four more kids coming up...

The reading in Rainbow is not very much work. It seems that a lot of the instruction is done in the labs. But we find the labs frustrating. Even with the kit, it takes a while to locate the materials, and sometimes the instruction doesn't seem sufficient to really gain understanding. My firstborn is doing okay with it, but I'm not sure how my next kids will do. So if the chemistry curriculum is similar, I wondered if I should just invest in a different curriculum or purchase the rest of Spectrum and use that. 

I'm looking for young-earth creation options that are clear and engaging. Thank you!

[Compare Rhetoric programs--Fitting Words, Memoria Press, CAP Rhetoric Alive]

• James Nance's Fitting Words
• CAP's Rhetoric Alive
• Memoria Press's Rhetoric package

How did you choose between these programs, if you used any of them? Has anyone tried to compare them? I would be open to online classes as well, if you think any are better than these programs. We need to choose for our high school, and since we are missionaries overseas, I need to try to stick with what I pick. Mailing different choices over here is a nightmare.

[Logic options (Nance, Memoria Press, CAP)]

I am posting here copies of my correspondence with Martin at MP, plus a forum discussion on MP comparing Traditional Logic to CAP's logic and comparing TL to Nance's program.

Amy,

 

You asked several questions, so let me take those in turn.

 

First, in regard to Classical Academic Press's program, the relevant specific comparison is between my Traditional Logic I and II program and CAP's The Discovery of Deducation, since TL I & II are focused on formal logic and DoD is  mostly focused on formal logic.

 

I think the differences (and I think CAP would agree with these) would be:

 

· My book covers more of the traditional system that CAP's. Whereas my book covers both simple categorical and simple hypothetical reasoning, as well as complex forms of both kinds, DoD covers only simple categorical reasoning. So I think mine is more comprehensive

· I treat formal logic separately from material logic, so TL I and II are purely formal logic and my Material Logic is purely material logic. DoD is mostly formal but has a section covering some basic topics in material logic. There are long traditions that do it both ways, I just find it clearer to treat them separately.

· Just perusing DoD, it would appear that my book has a lot more exercises to master the material. In skills subjects, we stress a lot of practice so that students habituate themselves to the procedures presented. We also try to provide all the exercises necessary for this so that teachers don't have to invent more exercises.

· My books do not include Venn Diagrams (DoD does) since they assume something called "existential import" an assumption of modern logic that is rejected by traditional logicians because of its modern assumptions. I use Euler's Diagrams, which do not contain this assumption at points where I think they are helpful.

 

Those are just the obvious things which I can say without having had occasion to go through the book carefully. It does seem to be nicely laid out and does focus on traditional logic (an advantage not shared by many other contemporary textbooks).

 

In regard to Catholic/Protestant, St. Thomas/Van Til question, I guess the first thing to say is that that would not constitute a difference between the two programs. They both study traditional logic, and traditional logic operates on Aristotelian philosophical assumptions that are shared by Catholics and most protestants.

 

There are strains of protestant thought in which nominalism (the questioning of the reality of universal ideas) is predominant, but even that does not necessarily affect one's views on logic. But nominalism figures predominantly in the development of much of the the modern logic systems studied in colleges and universities today, which is one of the reasons I do not emphasize it. 

 

The logic studied by reformers such as Luther, Calvin, and Melanchthon was the traditional Aristotelian logic that you will find in both these programs.

 

 

_____________________________

Q: Martin told me at a convention that his materials are based on pre-20th Century developments in philosophy and I was wondering if his is the only program in the homeschooling market that has that distinction (which I highly value). I know his program is solid beyond question but, frankly, it's a bit daunting for me even with the DVD lectures option.

 

 

A:

I am posting here a response Martin previously gave about MP's logic in contrast to Logos Press' logic. Soon I will have his response about CAP's logic which I will post when I have it. -Paul
______________
Well, let me take a stab at this question, with the obvious proviso that I authored one of the texts being compared. And let me class my answers in two parts: the first those with which I think the authors of both texts would agree, and the second those with which there might be disagreement.

1. Facts about the two books with which both authors would agree:

First, the Memoria Press Traditional Logic series emphasizes traditional, linguistic logic while Jim's series emphasizes modern mathematical logic.

Second, the Memoria Press program is "deeper" (it goes into one system of logic and spends all its time studying it, while Jim's program is "wider" in the sense that it covers several system of logic (the traditional and the modern).

Third, the Memoria Press program has more exercises than Jim's (I think he would agree with this, anyway).

2. Facts about the two books with which there may be disagreement between the authors:

First, the two systems respectively studied in the two books are entirely different, involve different assumptions about reality, and have different philosophical origins. Traditional logic is Aristotelian in origin and assumes that words or "terms" legitimately refer to universal ideas (also called "natures" or "essences") which exist in things. This is an assumption that is common to all of classical thought and to historic Christianity, and finds its greatest expression in the thought of St. Thomas Aquinas. Modern logic is nominalist in nature and originates with Gottlob Frege, a 19th century German philosopher, Bertrand Russell, Alfred North Whitehead and Ludwig Wittgenstein. I think Jim would agree with me on most of these facts, although he might not agree with me as to the significance of them.

Secondly, traditional logic is what was actually used in the trivium. The trivium is language study, and traditional logic is conducted in and oriented toward real human language, while modern logic deals much more in mathematical symbols. This is a reflection of the differing assumptions about words. In traditional logic, a term is a sign signifying a nature, and cannot be replaced with any other word to yield the same meaning, since then it would refer to another nature. In modern logic, on the other hand, terms can function as essentially mathematical symbols, which can be replaced with any other term and still yield the same meaning. Traditional logic treats language qualitatively, while modern logic involves the belief that language can be quantified. Again, I think Jim would agree with most of these points, but not necessarily about their significance.

Thirdly, traditional logic uses a mastery learning approach, ensuring that the student has mastered the program at each level and is therefore prepared to proceed to the next lesson. It includes quite a lot of exercises to ensure this mastery. Jim's program would benefit from some supplementation in this regard (I think the videos that go along with the program help in this regard).

All that being said, Jim's program is a fine program and is the best thing out there to teach the system of modern logic at the high school level.

Martin

 

 

A: The difference between Memoria Press' Traditional Logic and Art of Argument

The chief difference between Memoria Press' Traditional Logic and Material Logic, on the one hand, and the Art of Argument is that they are covering different things. TL covers formal logic; AA is a course on informal fallacies. Informal fallacies are a branch of material logic, but not the part of material logic covered in the current MP text.

Right now we don't have a course covering informal fallacies.

The more relevant comparison is between TL and the The Discovery of Deduction. I think the main differences would be what is covered in the respective texts. Both TL books together cover the complete system of traditional logic, which includes 1) simple categorical arguments; 2) simple hypothetical arguments; and 3) complex forms of both categorical and hypothetical arguments. DD covers only the first. I don't know but I suspect CAP may be planning another complementary course for those.

We really stress the mnemonic verse devised by William of Sherwood in the Middle Ages for the manipulation of syllogisms so they really get to know them from all perspectives. DD doesn't have this, but, again, that may be included in a later book.

I think our logic books may be more exercise-heavy as well. We really stress mastery learning in all our programs so we really go overboard on making sure there are enough exercises to really master the subject. Maybe we are a little OCD about that, but it seems to work pretty well.

Those seem to me to be the major differences.

 

______________________

We chose to use MP's TL 1-2, and maybe we'll also do Material. Having looked at the programs (and having formerly studied logic extensively), my dh thought that TL had the important ideas for logic. We didn't want a lot of symbolic mathematical-type logic, but one based more on words and definitions.

[Can we create a high school government options thread?]

Masterbooks has this: https://www.masterbooks.com/civics-and-the-constitution-curriculum-pack

Generations has this--I don't know how typical it is for a government course: God and Government

MFW uses two books: Never Before in History and Under God

I don't know if these resources were already linked above...

[How do you teach Bulfinch's Mythology? (or any Greek mythology)]

18 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Totally understand that doing lit. together does not work for everyone -- just describing what it looked like for us, per your request. 😉 

A few possible ideas, in case something helps:

Combining can sometimes streamline your schedule:
- Bulfinch's Greek Myths could probably be handled by your older 4 children, so that might be able to still be a read-aloud
- in general for high school next year, if you have an average-to-advanced 12yo, for some "easier" works you may be able to combine the 14yo and 12yo for reading/discussing -- and maybe at the same time when combining older, combine the 10yo and 9yo for an occasional "book club", which streamlines to just 2 books for 4 children

Schedule regular time in your homeschooling for discussion with 14yo, so that it actually happens.
- esp. to start with as you move into high school and are just starting to dig deeper with discussion, doing it several times a week for a shorter time (like 10-15 minutes 3-4x/week, or 15-20 minutes 2-3x/week is more effective than once a week for an hour -- it's easier to keep up with discussion; it's not so overwhelming for the student; it builds the habit of thinking about what is being read)
- schedule younger children for solo reading or other solo work while doing scheduled discussion with older children
- if you absolutely cannot schedule discussion in your school day, then block out a *regular, consistent* time in the evening or on weekends for discussion; OR, discuss informally -- at lunch or dinner, or during regular traveling during the week (if your family regularly commutes by foot or vehicle to a weekly or even daily place/event)

Parent needs to be familiar with the work to discuss; if you don't have time to read all the literature too, maybe try:
- pick 4 works (1 per quarter) that you commit to read either together or individually but concurrently, and discuss in depth; other books could be a combination of student "just reading" and student working through parts (or maybe all) of a literature guide
- for works you don't have time to read, use a meaty study guide with chapter summaries, analysis of major themes/characters/ideas, and discussion questions; or, use free online resources such as Sparknotes, Cliff's Notes, Pink Monkey, Schmoop, etc.
- for works that you don't have time to read and can't find a summarizing resource for you, let it be a total solo read; or for discussion, let your student summarize the work to you, or talk about what was interesting or important to them, or have the student pick one discussion prompt and answer it aloud to you, and you ask a few questions for clarification

Not every work needs to be discussed or written about
We don't want to kill the love of great literature by forcing a student to write about EVERY book, or by over-analyzing or over-discussing EVERY book. That will save you time, NOT having to write about or discuss every work. 😉

Be sure to include some "lighter" books and high interest books
If doing a Great Books type of study, it is easy to overkill and ONLY do ALL books from that time period/area. In addition to not over-doing and killing the love of literature, be sure to include works that are lighter and of high interest to the student.

Enjoy your high school literature studies! Warmest regards, Lori D.
 

Lots of good ideas here, thank you. Looks do-able, if I don't get lazy! I'll be juggling phonics with the littlest and Homer with the oldest. 😜

I've been thinking about combining the top two (12 and 14yo) for Henty's Cat of Bubastes. I saw MFW does that in 9th grade... is Henty okay for a lighter read in high school? is he too light or too much... MFW has the high schoolers independent. I wondered if I combine my 12 and 14yo for some of the works if that will require me to make the 12yo an entirely different schedule when he gets up there? I was kind of hoping that if I work out a nice schedule for the 14yo this year, that it work for the 12yo when he gets up to 9th or 10th grade himself. Is it better to do that (like MFW--put them more independent in high school--I think MFW has a weekly meeting for discussion and planning with the student), or to combine them for discussions and readings (like TOG)? Trying to think about what is going to work for us, and it's hard to know.

[How do you teach Bulfinch's Mythology? (or any Greek mythology)]

14 hours ago, Lori D. said:

We did the much of our Literature all through the years, including middle/high school grades, aloud together, which facilitated discussion.

Thanks again for all of your help, Lori D. Really wish I could read the lit with my kids. I'm sure it would facilitate great discussion. My other children's needs push me to make my oldest mostly independent for lit. I'm trying to read and prepare ahead to still get some great discussions in there where possible. Yes, this is for high school level--I'm thinking to assign it in a few months during his 9th grade year.

[How do you teach Bulfinch's Mythology? (or any Greek mythology)]

14 hours ago, Momto6inIN said:

My kids are introduced to basic myths in early elementary our first time through the history cycle, and we just talk about them and contrast them with our Christian beliefs. When we do the next history cycle in middle school, they read D'Aulaire's and other myths and fables and fairy tales from around the world (Africa, Japan, China, Egypt, Norse, Native American, etc). We don't really do anything other than read them and talk about them in an informal way. So I guess I don't really "teach" them - I just expose them to them. And they eat it up and usually read them over and over again because they're so engaging and interesting 🙂

I've done this, too. 🙂 I was wondering if I need to do something more on the rhetoric level if I assign Bulfinch's. My oldest will be 14 and starting 9th grade in 2 weeks, so I'm planning for literature for him.

[History of the Ancient World aligned with Romans Roads Old Western Culture?]

14 hours ago, cintinative said:

Just FYI.  Herodotus is about 800 pages.  I think Omnibus has the student read the whole thing (gasp!).  I read through maybe 300 pages in prep of using it next year to supplement my ancient history plan. It's not necessarily hard reading, but there are some sensitive subjects, and could be hard to push through depending on the student's interest in history.  There is no way I personally would assign the whole thing.  

My oldest read parts of it in Great Conversation I at WHA but neither of us are sure which parts.  

I believe I currently have 15 days scheduled just for the reading, and I expect I will have to increase that as my youngest is not a quick reader.  

 

This is from a website and concerns the content:  "After Herodotus died, editors divided his Histories into nine books. (Each was named after one of the Muses.) The first five books look into the past to try to explain the rise and fall of the Persian Empire. They describe the geography of each state the Persians conquered and tell about their people and customs. The next four books tell the story of the war itself, from the invasions of Greece by Persian emperors Darius and Xerxes to the Greek triumphs at Salamis, Plataea and Mycale in 480 and 479 B.C."

😂800 pages! That's not something I can just "stick in" as a supplement, is it? I immediately was curious and looked at OWC's Greek Histories reader. It's 631 pages in my PDF. 250 pgs on Herodotus (books 1-9), 200 on Thucydides (books 1-8), and over 100 on Xenophon (books 1-7). Just looking at Book 1 of Herodotus, I see that sections 8-27, 95-187, and 190-216 are omitted. So evidently OWC only assigns portions. I don't know if you have to purchase to access their "materials" page? They have all their readers in PDF there--maybe that would be helpful for someone here. The readers are already clipped to include just the materials Callihan teaches on.

What is WHA?

Thank you for that synopsis of Herodotus. I'll look up Thucydides, since I don't now him either. 😊 Xenophon--I was thinking of omitting him, because my boy is a history buff and already read the Landmark book on Xenophon. I heard that the Landmark book was an abridged version of Xenophon, but I don't know how true that is. 

[How do you teach Bulfinch's Mythology? (or any Greek mythology)]

If you teach Edith Hamilton's or Bulfinch's Mythology (I just mention Bulfinch's, because that's what I have), what does that look like for you?

1. Do you use a guide? a workbook w/ comprehension questions?
2. Do you have them only read?
3. Just read and narrate (orally or written)?
4. Discuss with them Socratically? (which brings me back to #1...) And how often do you have a lit discussion, if so? once per day or week?
5. Other

Has anyone tried to bring in a Christian worldview--comparing and contrasting Christian theology with Greek myths?

Thank you for your help!

 

[History of the Ancient World aligned with Romans Roads Old Western Culture?]

3 hours ago, cintinative said:

1. I guess it would be useful to know if the reasoning for your question is that you think that your child should have full world history as opposed to just western civ. 

2. If so, is it possible to just do HOTAW and supplement it with lit and primary sources? 

3. Or are you open to a world history text that uses primary sources that is not HOTAW?  

ETA: I am not sure which kid this is for (the 13 year old??) . There are samples of videos from OWC online that you can watch.  I strongly suggest you sit down and watch some with your child.  My kids do not like video instruction that much, and are very picky. I *loved* the idea of OWC, but my kids hated the videos, so that meant we had to look elsewhere. 

1. I guess I think it's preferable to have a full world history, though it might not need all the chapters in HOTAW--so not that full, lol. But a little more full than OWC.

2. I  was thinking about doing this option pretty much like you stated. The lit that I would be doing would be part of the English credit, and I would use OWC's unit (Epic) for Homer's Iliad and Odyssey. I wasn't sure if I would use all of OWC's Greek unit on the plays (don't remember the name of it--Drama?) If I used any of that, though, I'd still count that in the lit credit. The OWC Greek Philosophers unit--would that count as history, or a quarter credit of philosophy elective? So maybe I wouldn't cover that this year? Not sure about that unit. Therefore, from OWC, out of 4 units, only 1, the Greek Histories would count towards my history credit. In my understanding, the Greek Histories unit has the students read Herodotus and Thucydides, maybe a bit of Xenophon? So there are my primary sources. So if I replaced some of HOTAW's Greek history with these primary sources and teaching from OWC, then I didn't think that was adding too much for the history credit... But I've never read Herodotus/Thucydides, so I don't know if they covered any other world history, or only a very specific slice of Greek history like the Peloponnesian Wars or something. So in that case, I'm not married to the idea of them reading a ton on the Peloponnesian wars, either, to the exclusion of general world history. 

3. Answered above in #2. OWC is a history text using primary sources. But it's not world history, so I thought I'd like a bit more world history than OWC has. I'd be open, but I'm a missionary overseas, so I can't purchase new books right now. I've already got several good options here--just need to figure out which parts I'd like to use, I guess?

Yes, for my oldest. He'll be 14 and in 9th grade shortly after the time we start this curriculum. We school according to S. Africa's calendar, which begins in January. So I'm trying to figure this out now. I never thought about my kids not liking video instruction. 😁 We'll see how it goes with the Epics, because I know I'm using that for some of our lit this year. We're using MUS, but that only uses video instruction once or twice a week.

[Seriously Behind in Math! What Do I Do?]

I'm sorry for your stress about this "essential" subject. My oldest is 13, and he loves math. He is a bit young for his grade, so the first thing I wondered is if your signature is correct that your daughter is 15. If she's 15 and a junior, then she's young for her grade, and it wouldn't be a big problem to call her a sophomore? Having read all the comments, I see that was suggested.

The second thought I had was to use Math U See. Then I saw that was discussed already. 😁But--the WTM boards tend to have Type-A curricula. Lol, I don't know what to call it, but these boards seem to attract those who want the strongest, deepest, most rigorous curricula. MUS is well-beloved by many homeschoolers, and will do just fine for a child trying to get the high school credits done. We used MUS Alg1 and then I accelerated my son through Foerster's Alg 1. Then he made it through MUS Geometry in 8-9 weeks? Now he's accelerating through Jacob's Geometry. 

This allowed me to compare the two programs. While MUS Alg was definitely not as rigorous as Foerster's, it still took my son over half the year, and at least the first half of Foerster's was covered (except for sets) to the point that my son could whiz through it. MUS Alg 1 didn't cover the quadratic formula, which was covered a lot in Foerster's. Then towards the end of Foerster's there were more things not covered in MUS Alg 1 (ds had to slow down!), but I think were in the Geometry, or maybe will show up in MUS Alg2. I also didn't see the gaps Lori mentioned, but maybe Mr. Demme fixed it after all these years? My point is, that if you do decide to teach Geometry, I suggest MUS. The Geometry was easier than what Jacob's is appearing to be, and Mr. Demme explains things very well. If you had 1.5 years to finish Alg1, Geo, and Alg2, and consider half a year for each 😕, MUS Geometry is doable in that amount of time.

Also, I don't really consider MUS as "mastery" (vs. "spiral") at the high school levels. It's like the other books I've seen, in that the concepts do build on themselves, and there's review all along. I could see someone wanting more review, but MUS does have 3 review pages per lesson. Same with Foerster's or Jacob's, though--you have to master the earlier chapters to get the later ones, and every new lesson has review problems. Perhaps I'm not experienced enough to see a big difference there.

I sat with my son for every MUS lesson and read the book, so that if he wasn't understanding something, I could help him. Then I read the Foerster's lessons before he did so I could help him. Now in Mus Geo and Jacob's I haven't been able to keep up, so he's more on his own. So if she wants your help, I'd say like everyone else to do that first thing in the day and sit with her, and nothing else gets done until that's done. Give her lots of praise.

However, if you think she needs to be pushed into action, perhaps telling her you are getting her a tutor to whom she has to answer would be helpful. (like people mentioned a CC course. I suggest you contact Mrs. Flynn with Liberty Tutorials (she talks kinda like Garga described above... She's patient, and expects math to take a good chunk out of your day. The only two negatives for your situation are that she uses tough texts, and I don't know if she would meet privately to tutor your daughter in an accelerated way. But she wants to see every kid succeed at math, if they just have enough help and instruction.)

[History of the Ancient World aligned with Romans Roads Old Western Culture?]

I was planning on using RR's OWC Greeks this year, but as I look at it, I'm thinking to do maybe a 9-18-week term of ancient history first leading up to the history/lit/philosophy covered in OWC. Has anyone tried to use parts of HOTAW that precede OWC Greeks/Romans, and then jumped over to OWC for the parts of history that it covers, and then jumped back and forth like that between these resources? I'm thinking of using HOTAW to fill in gaps of world history that aren't covered by OWC.

I am unsure just looking at HOTAW's contents how to schedule it and what the most important parts would be, if I cut certain chapters. Are there certain chapters that are very interesting and more essential than others?

[History of the Ancient World organized by regions?]

Has anyone made a schedule for HOTAW that isn't quite so strictly chronological? Maybe within the five parts, you grouped all the China sections, India, etc?

[Discussion guide for Out of the Silent Planet/C.S. Lewis space trilogy]

On 12/20/2020 at 4:44 AM, ScoutTN said:

Roman Roads has a new study guide to the space trilogy. It's called Deeper Heaven, I think. Comes with a cool postcard map of Lewis' cosmos. 

I was coming on here to mention this. It looks really good.

 

[Classical Education Movement]

I haven't been on these forums for months and came on today to see if anyone was talking about all of the Classical Consortiums this group of speakers has been having in the past few months. I just got an announcement about another upcoming one with Cothran, Pudewa, Perrin, Kern, and Reynolds. I enjoy a lot of it, but I also admit that I'm skeptical about a few things and underwhelmed in some of their sessions or speaking abilities (especially considering CE's emphasis on Rhetoric).

My main question I'm wondering about is why they don't include SWB? I know she spoke at conventions years ago, but it was mostly before the time I knew about her, and I've only gleaned from her recordings. I would absolutely attend anything at which she spoke--especially on of those CE Unhinged Panels. She has been so helpful to many of us, and while Reynolds seems like a nice lady, SWB could elevate the whole scene immensely. The WTM book and curriculum fit my mind so well as a homeschooling mom. SWB understands us. We also use some MP (which does feel VERY traditional schooling, and the teachers are even more boring than ABeka or BJ) and CAP products. I take courses on ClassicalU and am impressed with Dr. Perrin's explanations of the history of CE and his goals for it. I see humility in his admissions that they're all still trying to figure this out, and I completely support the emphasis on virtue and Christianity.

[US History at home - options.....]

I've been researching as well lately. I haven't used these but just wanted to add James Stobaugh's American History and Generations America in God's Providence. Also, MFW uses the BJU text with other texts over their 11th-12th grade years. Sonlight has a mix and match system where you could buy the upper level history or lit on its own or mix it with whichever accompanying lit/history you want. I also thought of Bennett, as we have his books at home.

[How to Read a Book by Adler]

11 hours ago, Lori D. said:

re: Teaching the Classics and WttW
You might like to look at the Jill Pike syllabus, which schedules and helps oversee doing BOTH Teaching the Classics and Windows to the World as a 1-year English credit. It is a great option for getting started with literary analysis. That option has your student covering in-depth 6 short stories (and a few poems), and 3 longer works (To Kill a Mockingbird; Jane Eyre; Hamlet) -- I also believe there are a few options for substituting for those 3 longer works.

re: more hand-holding
I found that getting meaty individual guides to go with our books gave us hand-holding for getting started with more formal literature studies, by providing chapter summaries; background information on the author/times; information on literature topics and literary devices and "big ideas" in the book; plus discussion questions for spring-boarding digging into the work. For example, we used both Brightest Heaven of Invention: A Christian Guide to Six Shakespeare Plays + Parallel Shakespeare materials (parallel text + teacher guide + student workbook) for doing some Shakespeare plays. 

re: Norton anthologies
Norton anthologies have in-depth college-level analytical essays about author/works. The anthologies are great for poetry and short stories; longer works are in excerpts, not full works. We did use a few bits here and there from my old college Norton anthologies during our high school years. You mentioned in your other thread that you have the resource of Invitation to the Classics... That has author/works background info and overview of major themes/ideas that just the right length for beginning literary analysis. You could start there and then see if you wanted/needed to go deeper with Norton anthologies. We liked using Invitation to the Classics as introductory material for author/times. We also used a lot of Wikipedia articles on author/works and literary movements for background information.

re: resources to to with How to Read a Book
While I'm still not an Adler fan 😉 , his book clearly works for others. The link to the summary of the book that 8FillTheHeart links above is great. In addition, here are some resources that might be useful for doing the book with a high school student:

- How to Read a Book -- free online PDF of the entire text of the book, so you can see what you think, if it is a fit
- Guide for How to Read a Book -- free online guide with chapter summaries and questions to guide reading the book, from University of St. Thomas
- Ambleside Online -- free online schedule for doing How to Read a Book over 2 years.
- Pandia Press -- lists the email for directly contacting the creator of a go-along workbook to purchase the inexpensive workbook
Pandia Press is a secular 4-year History program publisher; the author of the go-along workbook is Maryalice Newborn (a WTM board participate up through 2018). The email addresses that Pandia Press lists for her are:  MNewborn@windstream.net or maryalice.newborn@gmail.com.  I don't know if she does overseas shipping, or if she might be able to send an e-book/e-document version.

re: How to Mark a Book
How to Mark a Book -- free online article by Adler describing his technique in the July 6,, 1941 issue of Saturday Review of Literature

ETA:
Also, in case it helps, I've attached the lesson info I wrote up on annotation. It is part of the first week's lesson of the weekly lessons I create for my homeschool high school Lit. & Comp co-op classes.

 

Annotation.pdf 51.02 kB · 4 downloads

Wow, thank you for all those links and resources. I'll go take a look!

[How to Read a Book by Adler]

11 hours ago, Zoo Keeper said:

And to add one more option... SL uses HTRAB as the backbone of its high school American Lit core.  https://www.sonlight.com/430-MD.html

 

Just in case you wanted one. more. thing. to think about. 😉

Gulp. That looks really good, too. 😁🤔🤕

[How to Read a Book by Adler]

5 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I like Lori's list, but I don't think any of those sources actually address many of the ideas in How to Read a Book.  Perhaps it is bc in discussing the book with my kids, our take away is a different focus bc close reading and digging deep is something we have done their entire lives.  But, just bc they have done that does not mean that they are conscious of the multiple levels of reading or know how to assess a work as a whole.  I would say my kids are probably good at getting through levels 1-3, but level 4 reading is a skill that needs to be consciously developed.  I would say that my college jr really appreciates the skills developed in this book as she spends semesters immersed in reading Russian propaganda and has to evaluate novels in relation to Stalinism.

I think this article does a good summarizing the book and might help you decide if and how you want to read the book.  I have only done it with a 9th grader once and that was bc I did it with 2 of my kids at the same time.  One was a sr and one was a 9th grader.  I do think that waiting until later in a high school might lead to greater depth of understanding its value. (Doing them together was for my benefit, not my 9th grader's.  😉 )

ETA:  oops, forgot to post the link: https://medium.com/@shengyuchen/notes-on-how-to-read-a-book-with-heart-d8e0c25a51df

THANK YOU for that article! I'm going to print it off tonight and start learning. So what I'm getting from putting all of your responses together is that maybe it would be best to start our Great Books study in 9th grade with a basic summary of the book or a few lessons on "How to Mark a Book" or annotations as roy speed teaches. Then maybe go through How to Read a Book when they're older. I did notice that MP's Classical Rhetoric course sells How to Read a Book. I wrote them this question (before I saw all of your answers):

How to Read a Book: How much of this book do you cover? How much help (as in exercises or answer key) do you give in reading Adler's book? I was thinking of having my upcoming 9th grader read it as the beginning of his high school literature program before we jumped into the Great Books curricula I have. But I wasn't thinking we'd be ready for your Classical Rhetoric program until about 11th grade, when he'd be more than halfway through his Great Books program. Should I (1) wait for him to read Adler's book until we use the Rhetoric program, (2) have him do it in 9th grade as I'd planned, or (3) have him do certain chapters now and wait on other chapters until 11th grade to be used concurrently with this course? I need advice on how to plan Adler's book.

And this was the company reply to that:

The Student book does include comprehension questions about Adler's book, but it does not move slowly and methodically through the content. Students are required to read it, mark it, and then answer a few questions about how it applies to the study of Classical Rhetoric. However, I would recommend that your student read Adler's book in conjunction with the Classical Rhetoric course and not before. As a result, it might be worth considering doing CR in 9th grade.

Does anyone have experience with this course, and how much of the book is covered? It sounds like they cover the whole book, but from the sample, I see they start with How to Mark a Book and then apply that to Aristotle's Rhetoric. I can't tell from the contents that they do much with Adler's book. Also, after all of the responses above, it sounds like 9th grade is not the ideal time for this book. Having looked at the rhetoric course sample, I think 9th grade would be a bit early for my kid as well for that course. But I feel much better at least starting with these resources given to me here. You all are such a help! Thank you!

[How to Read a Book by Adler]

On 5/4/2020 at 7:04 PM, Lori D. said:

I am not terribly fond of Adler's How to Read a Book, as I think it verges on turning reading in to box-checking for some people, and can really kill the joy of reading for others. In his book The Pleasures of Reading in an Age of Distraction, Alan Jacobs talks about Adler's ideas coming out of a particular time period and philosophy that somewhat turns the classics into a reading checklist for "you're educated if you've read these books".

As previous posters have pointed out, what is important IS learning how to do "close reading" or deep reading, and discussing. Annotating (marking a book) is a way aiding that. Here is a terrific 7-minute video explaining annotation/marking a text. There are 2 different goals in helping high schoolers do "close reading", and they require very different "eyes" and skills, because they have very different desired ends:

1. digging deeper in literature to see what is beyond just plot (the "what happens")
2. learning how to learn from/study from a textbook, which can involve outlining or making study notes

Like previous posters, we did a lot of guided discussion to slowly (over several years) build annotation and digging deeper into literature. A few resources you may find helpful:
- Figuratively Speaking -- learn about literary elements and how they work in literature; check out this past thread: "Figuratively Speaking paired with short stories"
- Teaching the Classics -- learning Socratic method for guiding discussion
- The Art of Poetry -- because learning to deep read poetry is very different from any other type of reading
- Windows to the World -- teaches annotation, then how to use annotations as support in writing a literary analysis, and then covers how about

Thank you for the helpful links and thoughts! I don't want to be elitist about this, but use the book at the right time and way. I do have Teaching the Classics (old version). Would that be sufficient or should I also get one of the other resources to supplement it? Teaching the Classics is a little scary for me. I kind of want more hand-holding that tells me what things to find in the specific books we're reading, because how will I find the time to read them all carefully myself and find those literary devices to lead the Socratic discussion? (Maybe the updated version is more spelled out.) Do Norton anthologies do this, or do I just ask the questions in Teaching the Classics and let my student feel the weight of finding the elements covered in the course? Maybe I should also get WttW and look at that.

[How to Read a Book by Adler]

On 5/4/2020 at 5:19 PM, 8FillTheHeart said:

We also start with How to Mark a Book.  We do read How to Read a Book, but I read it with them.  We read about 3-4 pages per day and stop and discuss as we go along. 

I've followed your posts for a long time, 8Fil, and I really appreciate your thoughtful comments! I know you have your writing curriculum that involves discussions with your kids, and you have had several kids...how do you have time to read and discuss all these subjects or books with all of your kids??

[How to Read a Book by Adler]

On 5/4/2020 at 5:16 PM, royspeed said:

Amy:

I admire this book a great deal.

With my own high-school-aged kids, however, I found two problems with Adler: First, reading the entire book is a bit much — overload for most high schoolers; most kids can only stand a modest amount of reading about reading. Second, the key messages are best delivered, I found, in conjunction with actually reading challenging texts, so that the student immediately begins applying the key ideas. 

Here's what I did:

• The chapter "How to Mark a Book" in support of challenging assignments. I selected what I considered a key chapter from Adler, condensed and updated it (see attached), and then had my kids read the Adler chapter in conjunction with reading a challenging author.
• Discussion. When my kids and I discussed their reading, we would also discuss their annotations. Whenever interesting points emerged from our discussions, I encouraged them to beef up their annotations — i.e., transform each book into a record of their own learning and observations, as Adler recommends.
• Articles. I began writing my own articles about annotating as a necessary study skill. In these pieces, I would point out things never discussed by Adler, like the role annotations play in college-level studies — for instance, see here:
  "Annotating the text, Part 2"
  These articles, by the way, have been discovered by English teachers in public schools around the country, and at the beginning of each school year, many teachers make these pieces required reading for their students. 

I still use the Adler chapter, by the way, in certain of my courses that involve close reading, e.g., History & Literature of the Middle Ages.

Hope all that is helpful, Amy.

—Roy

How to Mark a Book.pdf 166.76 kB · 10 downloads

This is very helpful! Thank you so much for sharing your history with this book and your resources. You sound like a great teacher. I read your article linked above, and will certainly use that. I found that I read my Bible at the highest level, but don't usually read other books at that level, maybe a mix between the next two levels down. So I need to consciously improve myself. On the other hand, not all literature is worth the intensive reading that I devote to my Bible, is it?

[Planning 9th grade ancient history and lit for the first time]

23 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Welcome to the "big kids board" and planning for high school! Over the summer you might want to very slowly browse through the "best of the best" past threads linked in the big pinned thread at the top of the WTM high school board: "High School Motherload #1"

Absolutely agree with Susan C and Momto6inIN, who say in a much shorter space what my thoughts are. Below is my much longer response, FWIW. 😉 
Thank you for the welcome. Your response is worth a lot. 🙂 Thank you. I've seen those huge threads, and have looked at some of it. I'll be taking a look as I can in the next several months.

Discussion is very important -- high school is exactly when you do all that really deep discussion. We did not outsource, but went "DIY" -- but I only had 2 DSs who were close in age, so we could do all of the History and Lit. together at the same time. I think that "how much time" for YOU will vary, depending on the student's needs, along with how independent-working or parent/teacher-intensive the materials are. 

Hmm, a lot to think about for me here above and below. I don't want to go overboard on my expectations for either him or myself.

Especially if you go "DIY" rather than outsourcing, it is very easy to go way overboard and do much more than what is reasonable for 1.0 credit -- which is a real disservice to a student if you have them put in the work for 1.5 - 2.0 credits, but you only award 1.0 credit on the transcript.

..................................

Yes, way too much. Each program is enough for a complete 1.0 credit of History all on its own. For your sanity, just pick 1 program and go with it, rather than trying to combine/blend complete programs, or use excerpts of each to try and whittle down to 1.0 credit of material. Susan C. above gives you a good idea of what that looks like in using SWB's HotAW + Teaching Company Great Courses for History, and doing a limited/reasonable amount of Ancient Literature to go along with that. And Roman Roads is a full/complete program all on its own -- the videos may mean it requires less of your participation, as video lectures do the work of synthesizing material read, so you don't have to slowly work toward that goal together with your student in discussing the weekly readings.

Also: at the high school level, I strongly believe students should have a say in what they are studying. Does your student WANT to do a 4-year chronological History study? Or does s/he have strong specific interests in an area and/or time period? Is the student more interested in a STEM field or Fine Arts or other field -- and should more of your very limited time of high school be spent on their possible future career area, and just meet the minimum college admission requirements for credits in the Social Studies areas?

I'm going to have to think more about this above... My student loves history, especially church history. He is hoping to be a missionary to Mozambique to the same tribe to whom we are ministering now in South Africa. (your comment below...he would probably attend a U.S. university...we are American citizens. But we are following the South African school calendar year for now. If we decided to outsource classes, I guess that would come into our considerations as well for timing and planning.) I don't think he or I need the history to be 4-year, no. In fact the third year, I was thinking to do American history, I'm not sure, then government / economics for another year. He does not love literature (unless it's biographies from history, lol!) So I need to meet a minimum requirement for literature, say, but then I could let him focus on other studies, if I'm understanding you correctly. He also enjoys math and is very capable at it. I had thought maybe he could pursue a degree in it, which might be helpful to get into more difficult countries as a missionary. Just thinking...

I'd suggest having your student look at your main resources: ToG; Roman Roads; and SWB's HotAW, and see if one set of materials clicks with him. And also think about what method is best going to fit YOU and the amount of time you will have for discussion and mentoring of History and Literature. And -- be open to the possibility of the student totally rejecting doing a 4-year chronological History, in favor of focusing on a time/place of high interest to the student. We ended up dumping the 4-year cycle after Ancients and went with 20th Century World, because that was of high interest to DSs, and it provided a great foundation for them to understand Current Events.

I know you are overseas and your student would probably not attend a U.S. university, but just for the purpose of bearing in mind that you'll want to also be planning enough credits of certain types to be eligible for admission to college -- just to keep all possible future doors open. For U.S. colleges, the average university (NOT Ivy League/top-tier and NOT competitive admission) tends to want:
 

Thanks so much for your comments and help, Lori D! I responded in blue above (not sure how to quote portions multiple times). Your comments are worth a lot to me!