Coco_Clark
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Posts posted by Coco_Clark
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A boy and a girl. Trying for a bit more hands off and a bit more relaxed because a new baby is due in July 😬👶, while still prepping for high school next year. Maybe an impossible balance.
Math- Mr D Pre-Algebra for DD, Jacobs Geometry for DS
Writing- Writing and Rhetoric 8 along with written narrations and copywork
Reading- Early Modern focus- Swift/ Dumas/ Austin
History- Early Modern focus- Churchill's History along with famous speeches and interest-led biographies (Lewis and Clark for DS for sure).
Science- Astronomy with Signs and Seasons and Great Astronomers
Latin- Latin for Children C with Lingua Latina
Piano lessons for DD, guitar for DS
Online Coding Class via Mytek for DS
Plutarch/Shakespeare/poetry/bible/saints/nature study riches
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I give options, but only options I think will work. And I'll switch things around by request if they have a good reason, but "it's fastest/easiest" doesn't cut it. So I guess I fall a bit in the middle. It's always a conversation for us but I'm the one that decides at the end of the day.
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My kids are gobble-readers so I tend to assign books to my middle schoolers to be slow read. In a school year they will read 1-2 geography books, 1-2 science books, 1-2 history books, and 1-2 literature books this way, depending on their length. I assign 1-2 chapters a week from each category, so they can either spread it out over the week or get it all over with in one day. What they aren't allowed to do is read the whole book at once, though.
Other than that I let them free read. I'm careful to make sure they have a booklist with lots of suggestions from me, but I tend not to force it unless I notice they've started a series over for the 400th time.
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I'll just share my personal experience, with a child that skipped Pre-A in 6th grade in order to begin Algebra.
He was coming off Beast, like your DS, and looking over the available Pre-A options, they all felt like review. He tested out of MM7 and the AOPS "do you need this" pre-A test. We looked at AOPS Algebra and decided it was too intense/took up too much time for a child with a lot of other focuses (community theatre 5-6x a week, high school level coding classes, ect). Instead, we went with Jacobs.
On the one hand, it went well. He was ready for the math. What he wasn't ready for was the...format? I guess the executive functioning of working from a (dry) textbook, not a (fun) workbook, and the plain number of problems. What I wasn't ready for was the emotional rollercoaster that is 11/12. In the end he finished Jacobs in a year and a half. It wasn't a bad experience per se, but I wouldn't make the decision again. I think he would have benifited from a middle step, or even *gasp* an easier year.
Que his brother this year. 5th grade and finishing Beast 5 mid year (we just began D). Already tested out of AOPS Pre-A. But we are just going to do it anyways. One, with AOPS you know even review is rigor. But mostly, I think Pre-A is just as much about the executive functioning jump from grammar school to high school than it is about the math. And I can already feel the hormonal storm starting 😬
*It's interesting to note that the public school boy I have in between these two also had very light 6th/7th grade math years. I do not think this is a coincidence. They know something about kids this age.
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You are describing a program that is rigorous and challenging ideally to an advanced standard BUT you don't want your kids to put in lots of work, time, or be frustrated, and you don't want to put in a lot of time or prep as a teacher.
In my 8 years of experience teaching grammar stage math...no, that doesn't exist. Not for your average child and your average teacher.
Rigorous math will sometimes be frusterating. It doesn't mean it's not working, it just means they are working on their problem solving muscles and tolerance.
Kids under 9/10 will not consistently be able to work new material without a parent nearby. That doesn't mean it's not working, it means they are little.
And math is almost always time consuming. More so than any other subject.
So you may need to prioritize.
If you are willing to give on parent time, but want rigor and "fun/interesting/short lessons", I say go with Right Start. You need to be there but it won't take over 30 minutes. Run it 4 days a week for each child, and let them play math games online the 4th. Now you have an hour 3x a week and 30 minutes the other 2.
If you are willing to give on "fun/interesting/short" but you want rigor and independence go with Math Mammoth. It's completely self taught to the child and by far the most independant I've used of easily a dozen programs. It's not as hard as you think, and if lessons are too long you can assign every other.
If you are willing to give on rigor but want "fun/interesting/short" and independence stick with what you are using. They can begin rigorous math later, when you are at a different place. There is not a large family among us that hasn't had a light season due to baby.
All three of those programs work great for non confident moms. And I love the suggestion above about working something by yourself. For years I did khan academy over the summer break. I could do a school year in 4-5 weeks. I had to start in 4tg grade!!! But Ivd made it up through Geometry now and will do Alg 2 this summer!
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19 minutes ago, SusanC said:
I think you should stay the course with Kid A, you already own all those resources.
Kid B - If he gets math instruction next year, supplement with MM or AOPS Pre-A as appropriate because you will have and be using those resources. If he doesn't get math instruction use one of those full-time. He could also watch the AOPS videos and work in Alcumus.
Kid C - AOPS Pre-A Do watch the videos and sign up for Alcumus and then the wordy text gets diluted a bit, if that is a concern.
Yikes! You must spend a lot of time juggling math with all those students at similar-but-not-the-same places in math learning. I looked at the Zaccaro books once upon a time and they looked like great supplements, but not enough for a full curriculum, perhaps not for a spine, either. I think Dolciani would depend on you as the teacher more so than MM which teaches to the student, perhaps the time differential for you is not a concern. In our house my tricky math student needed me to not be the teacher, just the occasional advisor. If you do want Kid A to be hands-off, I wonder if you have looked at Jann's MyHomeschoolmathclass? No easy link to the answers there, and she was very gentle with my tricky student.
Thanks. Yes, half my day is math- literally. We have great success combining other subjects, even writing, but I've never been able to combine math.
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7 hours ago, Momto6inIN said:
Coming back to say for Kid C, could you keep him in AoPS but do it self paced just with the books? My oldest DS loooooooved AoPS but he is a slow deep thinker and the pace of AoPS online courses would have killed him. Since yours is only 11, he would have more time to slowly savor and absorb the math that way. The only drawback is that if you can't teach it (I sure couldn't!) he would need to be self teaching and independent. That worked for my DS at age 15 when I discovered AoPS, but it might not for an 11 year old.
Yes if we do AOPS we will self pace and take at least 1.5 years to complete it. I'm not super worried about teaching it, as I just went through Jacobs with an older, so Algebra is fairly fresh. And I find their solutions manuals top notch to work from- it's my favorite part of Beast. I also have a math major hubby in the grandstands for when we are stuck 🤣
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8 hours ago, wendyroo said:
I’m curious - is there a reason you wouldn’t have Kid A continue in the Jousting Armadillos series?
I glanced over it and wasnt as impressed with the later books. I also don't consider it a full curriculum, at least for this child. Not enough practice.
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11 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:
Just want to throw out there that the most commonly prescribed anxiety medications for children have a pretty solid safety profile and are often prescribed for kids ages 6 and up. They even come in liquid form for easy swallowing. They only take 4-6 weeks to build up in the system and hit full effectiveness, but we've seen improvement in as little as 2-3 weeks. They don't typically affect growth.
Anxiety is a beast, and panic attacks are, well, terrifying. Crippling. Awful. We delayed medicating for a child's anxiety and depression for a couple of years because we imagined negative side effects for his growing brain, etc. We had to have a second major crisis, including a second hospitalization, before we gave in and started an SSRI. The change in him was practically magical. It dramatically changed his life (and the rest of the family's) for the better, and I wish we hadn't waited so long. Our family works with pediatric psychiatrists at a major children's hospital for medication management because it makes me feel more comfortable that they know what they're doing and have seen complex kids like mine before.
Thank you for the thoughts. We are working with a therapist as well as a behavioral medication specialist and for right now, I trust their advice that medication is currently a last resort *for this child*. It may be his type of anxiety needs specific medication, I know that the SSRI we have used for other foster children dealing with depression in the past were not on the table. But I was told research showed regular therapy to be more affective than meds, and that anxiety is the last thing they like to medicate. They are not generally anti medication people, nor are we. I agree they can be life changing and have seen it many times. I also know as he hits his preteen/teen years he will likely become less stable and need more help.
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4 hours ago, df3121 said:
Following as I have the male version of your daughter (also 13). For added challenge - he needs lot of review, but strongly prefers a mastery approach.
Yes mine needs mastery or she won't grasp a subject in the first place, AND review or she forgets it. Henceforth, two math programs for the past 5 years. We do MM in the am for the mastery, and she does TT independantly in the afternoon for review. (I find TT a year ahead is a perfect review for MM). But it's soo much math. Just not realistic now that she's a teenager and has more work in other subjects, outside activities, ect.
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It would help as far as being behind other grades. But it wouldn't help in terms of depth or problem solving.
Right start is teacher intensive. But I think every arithmatic level math program is. Very few kids are independant in math before 5th or 6th grade. It doesn't require any prep, it's open and go at least.
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Its such a thin line. For us, and this is a line I learned directly from our behavior medication specialist, it's a question of if the child is functioning. There are also meds that are low risk and meds that are high risk.
My medicated girl has very very severe adhd. More severe than we even realized, to be honest, until we tried medication. It took 3 tries of different med and lots of dosage adjustments over a year to get it right. And she ended up on two medications in the end, one for focus and another for impulse control. But when we did get it right, it was night and day. She was 9 and went from a child that could not write (her lines went up and down the paper, she skipped words and phrases, ect) to writing pages and pages of stories. She got fully out of pull ups for the first time (she struggled to remember to go pee), ect and so on. She was an easy choice because she was so severe she was bordering special needs. And ADHD meds are very safe, work almost immediately, and have few side affects (and lots of other choices if you do have side affects).
To be fair, she is still noticibly adhd. She's in a co op class and struggles to stay on topic and not distract other students. She has to have lots of breaks in her homeschooling, and is often disorganized and struggles with executive functioning. It's not a cure all, it's a booster.
I have another with adhd as well. He is more able to cope, and tends to be hyperactive vs her attention deficit. I find that easier to "manage" at home. It does hold him back in certain areas, but we use tools like therapy, audio books to read along with, movement breaks, timers, ect and it works. I do sit next to him for 70% of his work to make sure he doesn't leave. But as a homeschooler I'm free to use whatever tools I want and do what I want. If he was in public it would be different.
My next in possible need of meds has an anxiety disorder, which includes panic attacks. Eventually he will end up on medication, I'm sure. Right now we are using therapy, supplements, and calming practices for as long as we can because anxiety meds are some of the worst for growing children, and you need 6 months to a year for them to build up before you can expect them to work. At least that's what our behavioral medocation doctor tells me.
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IF you really want to do something else, may I suggest looking at either Miquon or Right Start. Bug price difference, and learning curve difference. Miquon is cheap and takes a bit to learn to teach. Right start is spendy but just about as easy to teach as it gets. Both are fun, game based, physical, and very very solid mathmatically.
If Beast in book form didn't work, the online classes won't work either.
Teaching Textbooks is known for being a year+ behind grade level, besides not having much depth and almost no critical thinking. I use it with my 13yo daughter one year ahead of her Math Mammoth level and it's still 100% review.
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On 1/16/2021 at 1:56 AM, Mommalongadingdong said:
You have a lot of replies and I don't have time to read them all. But as another foster adopt parent I hope I can provide a unique perspective so I'll answer anyways.
"Okay, I know I'll receive some side eyes off the bat, but I have no network of people to ask. I'm newish the to parent thing, and this is the only responsive group I know of, so work with me."
No side eye. I promise.
"I have a 10yo DD (5th grade) who came to us at 5...She never caught up...Am I failing her, or is she just naturally not inclined to reach testable grade level standards?"
Hard truth: Traumatized children are not neurotypical children. She may never excell in school. Never. She will probably never catch up to her peers in all areas (academic, social, emotional). And that's ok!!! "C" level work is actually quite impressive, given her background! She has only been safe for half her life so far after all. That's a lot of catching up to do. So let go of comparisons to other kids, it's not fair to her or yourself. No one is failing anyone.
"I have another child, but she's 4 years younger, and.... wondering WHY my 10yo doesn't read better than my 6yo."
Because one child (I assume) is neurotypical and has never experienced extreme trauma/abuse and the other is not and has. An assumption, again. But I can safely say without assumption that every child is different, so the answer is because they are different. 😁
"I know this sounds SO self centered, but she's in a public charter, so it's hard to justify me homeschooling if she doesn't meet grade standards, kwim? ...Do I go quickly, what happens when she continues to not grasp the concepts?"
You sound like an amazing parent. The crap ones are the ones who don't care. But no, you don't push forward, you don't rush. It's not a fine line at all. Forget keeping up and teach her where she is. It's better to learn 2nd grade work in 5th grade fully and completely than it is to not learn anything at all. Which is what you are describing. How frustrating for her and you! When you go back to ps they will continue to remediate because you will be there to be sure that they do :). I have 5 at home and 1 at school. I promise, they can remediate, especially in the higher grades. Your child is not alone in needing that.
As for the ADD bit. There's no way for me to know if she is or not. What you are describing does not set off alarms for me. If you don't want to medicate there's little benefit to a formal evaluation and you are correct they take forever. It's a personal decision. I have 1 child medicated with several evals of different levels and kinds. I have not bothered with the others, though I know they are not neurotypical, because I haven't seen a reason to yet. My PSer got his IEP without it.
As for similar stories, I could tell 1000.
None of my 4 adopted kids are grade level, though some are closer than others. Both of my bio kids are, so I know it's not "me". One is severely adhd with fetal meth and alcohol and severe PTSD to boot. She could not survive PS, and likely won't fully graduate at a high school level even at home. One is at public. He gets straight C's when he turns in his homework. That's ok, it's where he's at, and we are working from there. Honestly I focus more on fighting/getting that homework turned in/respecting teachers, than I do the 3 rs. The other two are still in grade school. Doing ok but not at level, including my 8 year old still not quite reading. It's ok! There is time! The kid will be alright!
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I have 3 (count em 3!!) Kids going into Pre-Algebra next year. My last kid went straight from Beast 5 to Jacobs Algebra so this is weirdly new territory for me and I'm very lost.
Kid A is my biggest worry. She is 13, and currently using Math Mammoth 6/Teaching Teaching Textbooks 7/Jousting Armadillos. She's very very math-phobic and needs lots of repetition, lots of review, and gentle guidance. I'm considering Mr D, continuing MM7, Zaccaro or Dolciani.
Benefits to Mr.D is that it's reputed to be gentle (too gentle?), and that it would be very hands-off for me. Concerns are that I'm not quite sure this girlie is ready for me to be hands off, and there's a 0% chance the poor website design won't drive me nuts if I end up having to buddy-math this program. Also I notice the answers are provided in an easily reached link, and this kid has struggled in the past with cheating.
Benefits to MM7 is that MM is very familiar and has been absolutely solid so far. Downside is she'd very sick if it and hates it. Also it's familiarity cuts both ways because I think Pre-A is a great time to get used to your future Algebra program/working off a textbook instead of a workbook. It also has no to little review, which is why we always added TT in the past. But running two math programs is becoming too much as she gets older and has more work in other subjects.
I know very little about Dolciani or Zaccaro other than their excellent reviews here. I imagine Dolciani may work because of its set A, B, C structure. I feel like I could stick to A and add B when we can/or later as review.
Kid B is 12, in public school 6th grade, and requesting afterschooling as he has had literally no math instruction in a year. He's afraid his future will be affected, especially if next year continues distance learning. He's strong in algorithm based math, but struggles with problem solving. I'm considering Zaccaro or picking select Dolciani problems.
Kid C is 11, and finishing up Beast Academy. He is very strong in math, loves puzzles, and requires deep challenge to stay motivated... but is also overwhelmed easily at the moment (hormones!). I'm considering Dolciani, Zaccaro, or AOPS. I'm worried AOPS will be instant overwhelm, although he's always been happy as a clam in Beast...
If you read all that mess....any thoughts?
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1 hour ago, wendyroo said:
AOPS Pre-A is big and thick and...let’s go with thorough. It is truly a behemoth of a book. AOPS pages are DENSE with almost no white space.
I find AOPS Pre-A an incredibly intimidating book, but also absolutely worthwhile...for some kids.
DS#1 did Math Mammoth, Hands on Equations, Zaccaro Real World Algebra, and then spent 18 long months plugging away through AOPS Prealgebra (book + Alcumus). The level of rigor served him well...at points it almost killed us both, but it did serve him well. 😉
DS#2 did Math Mammoth, Hands on Equations, and is now bouncing back and forth between Real World Algebra and Jousting Armadillos. AOPS would be a disaster with him at this point.
My math-phobic DD is using the Jousting series right now. She came from Math Mammoth as well. I really enjoy it, and I do feel it's getting her gently introduced to algebraic concepts, but it's too wordy and not mathy enough for this boy, if that makes sense.
I'll look into Real World Algebra.
Thanks!
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I have not taught using Henle. We use a pretty eclectic mix mix of Latin for Children, Lingua Latina Familiara, Visual Latin, and National Latin Exam prep. But, I can't imagine throwing middle school kids into Latin without a teacher that's at least a few lessons ahead. Once you make the jump from vocab memorization and declensions into heavy translation, you really need to know your stuff in order to help and correct.
Which is time. I know. So yeah, your choices, ime, are find the time or find a tutor/online class.
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Thanks. I'm definitely used to the challenge of Beast Academy. I've gone through it 3 times now. But I don't have any history in contest math and don't consider myself mathy.
I do think the transition from comic to text book will be rough. It always is at this stage, which is part of why I want to do pre-a instead of jumping right into algebra. He can get used to the format change while not having to stress about the math, necessarily. He almost tests out of the book. I'll look at the later samples, that's a good idea.
I honestly don't expect to stick with AOPS with this kid long haul. I think it's overkill for kids that aren't interested in competing, or just absolutely in love with math. But there is a major dearth of Pre-Algebra options. I feel like I'm floundering every time we hit this level 🤪
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I have two thoughts.
1. It's nearly impossible to destroy a child's math future in grade school. Honestly. I adopted a 4th grader that could only add/subtract as far as her fingers could take her. She caught up by 8th grade. The closest thing you can do to destroying their math future is by making them hate math. So don't worry about 10 years in the future. Worry about this year. It has enough worries.
2. I don't know anything about MLFLE. But I find it easier to add extra practice to a light program than I do to provide the correct amount of scaffolding/help to a difficult one. If they are happy, I sat stick to it. If you want more review and/or depth, add it. Life of Fred is a popular option, though my kids hated it for the most part. Singapore has word problem books you could buy a grade down. Math Mammoth has affordable topical books and grade review books. You can always read the beast comics as a supplement, and not do the books at all. Ect and so on.
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My latest Beast graduate is not interested in online classes (and Im not particularly interested in paying), and not ready to just jump into Jacobs Algebra like I've done before. Has anyone taught Art of Problem Solving's Pre-Al level from the book? I feel like I only hear about the online option. Is the instruction included or just work? Is this do-able for a not-mathy, but has taught algebra already mom? Is the answer key as good as Beast?
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I had a super bouncy boy. On top of his utter inability to stay still ever, he also had zero interest in book/table learning.
So we played through all of kinder (6) the majority of 1st (7) and a good part of 2nd (8) grade. Including:
Hopscotch to learn blends and words (put cards in the squares, read then jump). See also hopping, skipping, snail walking, crab walking, tight rope walking, ect.
Jumping rope to learn to add, subtract, skip count. See also, throwing or kicking a ball back and forth. ALL math was oral or with blocks for this kid till 3rd grade.
Playing hide and seek to find a word or the correct number to answer a math problem.
All the wonderful math games at educationunboxed.com
Writing done standing up on a white board (fine motor skills turned large motor) or on a sand tray with a finger or paint brush.
And all the crazy reading positions you can imagine (croutching on a chair leg, upside down, downward dog yoga poses) ect.
The chair band foot fidget helped here, exersize balls and hand fidget toys just distracted. Ymmv.
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Yes! Noise cancelling headphones!!!
Also, lap desks (or even just trays) for work on their bed. Or loft beds so a workspace can fit under.
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2 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:
Neither of them has been getting any special instruction in school. I’ve only just had the ten-year-old come to me, but when I was home crisis schooling the eight-year-old at the end of the year and talked to her teacher about her struggles, her teacher had no idea that she didn’t comprehend anything she read and that she didn’t have any understanding of place value at all. They have been attending a pretty rotten public school with low standards, and no one who cared about their education so long as they didn’t flunk entire grades.
The school is never aware, good district or bad district 🙄. In fact, in my experience the "better" the school, the easier to fall through the cracks.
I've seen middle schoolers that can't read and no one ever noticed. Or a 4th grader that was getting GOOD grades in math but couldn't add or subtract numbers over 10 because she didn't have enough fingers. That's the hilarious (sad?) part- a lot of the time these kids grades are just fine. Especially the ones that can work the system. My adopted 11 yr old has atrocious vocabulary/ comprehension/ reading skills but tests far above average. He know how to work the fill in the dot system.
I know in a covid year this is meaningless but get them the IEP and the specialized help. Its appealing to just do it yourself, and true that you can do a better job. But it will follow them for years, no matter what their case ends up doing.
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On 8/18/2020 at 12:38 PM, WendyAndMilo said:
We're doing a trimester system: Sept-Nov on, December off (because Christmas), Jan-Mar on, April off (because gardening and Lent), May-July on, August off (because me). 2 weeks just isn't enough for me, but three months at one go is waaaayyyyy too much for DS. I'm hoping that one month is just right, especially since they are built around our general cycle of living anyways.
This is similar to mine, except off by two weeks. Our breaks fall end of Dec/early Jan, end of April/early May, and end of Aug/early September. We don't pre-celebrate Christmas or Easter so our breaks don't start more than a week before either. Plus I add a week in the middle of each of those 3 month stints, because my family are better sprinters than long distancers. 😁
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Younger sibling passing older sibling in math
in General Education Discussion Board
Posted
My kids are no where near age order in math. More like 2, 4, 1, 3, 6, 5 😂. They get used to it. Using different curricula can help if they are touchy.