Barbara H
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Posts posted by Barbara H
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Thanks for this perspective. I am not dissing the value of college credits! But we do have a good CC nearby, so I was thinking that dd could take some classes there, both for credits and to show her general readiness for college-level material and the college classroom setting. Given the cost of online AP classes and the AP exams, this seems like a less expensive method of reaching that goal.
So if she were to have SAT/ACT, 2-3 SAT 2 scores, and several CC courses, would AP exam scores add significantly to the "package" do you think?
A combination of approaches is great and it sounds like you are on the right track. It depends a lot at what colleges she's considering. For students who are looking at highly selective schools, often it is easier to get credits from APs than from CC credits but for most people that's not going to be a significant consideration. The nice thing about the CC credits is that it will show she can do well in a classroom environment and that carries weight. Having some SAT subject tests or APs will also provide some standardized measurement to validate the CC grades too.
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1) assuming that your goal is to verify "mommy grades" and put together a solid college ap, rather than to receive college credit, is AP necessary, or are the SAT subject tests ok? They seem cheaper and easier to prepare for . . .
Great that you are planning ahead!
Everyone's circumstances are different, but I just wanted to say that for most people I would not jump right past the value of getting college credits. At some schools just a single course like AP biology or AP US history - might be worth $3,000 or $4,000 in credits so that's not a small thing. If your student goes to a big state school those APs might get them out of some of the bigger intro courses and on to better courses faster. Even if you fully intend your student to be in college for four years, having those credits can be worth a lot in flexibility. It may allow a student to get a double major, study abroad, or even complete part of their graduate degree while an undergrad. Particularly for students attending state universities it can be difficult in a lot of majors to graduate in four years if you don't enter with at least some credit because the better high school students will have had APs. It also means your student may not be as well prepared if they are headed into competitive courses like weeder type pre-med courses.
So, if your student is capable of doing very well on SAT subject tests I would think about some APs. It really depends on the sort of schools they plan to apply to. Some more selective schools will require some SAT subject tests. Many state universities and smaller private colleges particularly once you get outside of the East Coast, won't necessarily know what to make of SAT subject tests and they won't carry the weight of AP scores.
As far as the question of whether there is a difference in having the course or just the score - schools really care about the score. Self study is fine as long as the student gets a good score on the test. CLEP is viewed as easier and doesn't carry the reputation or weight of APs or SAT subject tests. It can be an easier way to get credits though particularly if the student is looking at less selective schools.
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One good thing with Questbridge is that completing the application will get your student a jump start on getting started with college essays and that's always a positive thing. Typically the students I see that have been successful with Questbridge have both good academic profiles and have compelling life stories (they have overcome some odds to be there). This statistical profile of Quest Bridge Finalists may be helpful to you.
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Is she college bound? Some states and some colleges have specific requirements that students take US history (and sometimes world history). So, before you explore alternatives I would make 100% sure she doesn't need to have history. I'd be inclined to require history, but be willing to be flexible about what that looks like. History doesn't have to be about memorizing names and dates or boring stuff. If she's liked government, a lot of history is really not that different. As far as other social science optiosn there are many including psychology, sociology, anthropology, geography, current issues, global issues, philosophy, women's studies, etc.
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I caution against worry that kids are too well rounded or too pointy. Colleges need all kinds of kids. That includes the kids who do a wide range of activities and the single minded kids. At highly selective schools it can be harder to stand out from the pile if your kid is an all-arounder kind of kid, but certainly there are well-rounded kids who get accepted. Also, the well-rounded kids are often really appealing to liberal arts colleges. They are small but trying to keep going sports teams, music groups, newspaper, etc. and they want kids who will be involved in school activities.
The other question that seems to be raised by the discussion here is are some activities better than others. I don't think it is that simple. There is not a master list of activities admissions likes and dislikes. It is more about what your kid does with the activity. I agreer two hours of French club once a month doesn't mean a lot and stacking up these sorts of activities to resume build is not worth a lot. But, there are kids who have certainly turned French club into a great extracurricular where they put in lots of hours and built something unique or interesting.
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My problem is that I feel like some kids are saying things like, I'll volunteer for the Special Olympics because I need to do another activity for my college application, and that just feels wrong to me.
I agree it feels wrong. I bet most often when kids say this it is because that's exactly how their parents have presented volunteering or community service. Maybe because that's what the parents really believe about service or maybe because it was a convenient excuse to gain the teen's compliance.
I wouldn't worry that your kid is going to pick up this attitude if they have a different set of experiences. Kids who grow up doing service with family, scouts, church youth group, etc. don't grow up thinking purpose is resume building. Instead what I see sometimes is kids who think it is irrelevant for college or they are overly hesitant to discuss or document what they've done. They don't want to feel like they are cashing in on something that is just a part of their life. It takes some nudges to get some selfless kids to realize it is okay to talk about what they do for others and to feel good about it.
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A lot of what I see parents pushing their kids to do because they believe it looks good on a college application are actually things that college admissions really don't care about. Volunteering for one day for the 5K or Special Olympics as an isolated activity may be a good experience but it doesn't really impress. What colleges are looking for are kids who are genuinely interesting people who have a genuine desire to participate in an ongoing way in activities. They want kids who take on leadership roles and kids who can articulate what was meaningful to them about these experiences. That tends to be different than showing up because Mom made you.
As far as the broader question, I do think it is okay to require some stuff as part of your homeschool because it is a part of college and life readiness. That includes all sorts of things such as four years of math, take the SAT or ACT, learn cook basic meals, etc. Not all of those things need to be things that the child loves or asks to do. Sometimes you do stuff because it is part of life and learning.
Some hesitant kids benefit from being told they have to be involved in some kind of extracurricular or community activities. Of course, you want to come up with options that will be a good fit for their interests, but I believe it is fine to make it mandatory that they do something outside of the house. Some teens really need that initial nudge to get there and then it turns out to be a good experience. And, on the opposite end, I also support parents setting limits for the super involved kids. It will depend on your individual circumstances, but for a younger kid that limit might be two activities per season. For an older kid it might be a specific dollar limit or number of rides per week with the understanding if they want to earn money or find their own transportation they may be involved in more activities.
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It is a legitimate organization. They sponsor some scholarships and there are some schools (particularly state universities) that have specific scholarships for PTK members.
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This thread may be helpful: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/88787-is-the-national-society-of-collegiate-scholars-worth-75/
We decided it was worthwhile to join major related honorary societies and Phi Beta Kappa - gave the rest a pass.
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The short answer is usually the portion for tuition, fees and books is not taxable but the portion for room and board or stipend is taxable. This article explains it well and links up to the IRS info on the subject. http://www.finaid.org/scholarships/taxability.phtml
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Great idea. Have you looked at Evernote? http://evernote.com/ It has a lot of capabilities. I keep telling myself I'm going to make the time to dig in and learn to use it because I've seen other people doing really great stuff with it.
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Colleges are ask to list the factors they consider in making admissions decisions and this information is released in the common data set. Factors are listed in four categories: very important, important, considered, not considered. Villanova lists as very important: rigor of secondary school record, class rank, academic GPA, standardized test scores. Important: essay, recommendations, extracurriculars, talent, character, volunteer, work experience.
Demonstrated interest (which can be reflected by a visit) is listed as "considered", in other words it is a factor but most often not a very significant one. Interview is listed as "not considered." So, they may not even give interviews. That said there are some colleges that do not consider interviews generally but like to interview homeschoolers.
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I understand your discomfort with grades. Just one thought... You can include grades on his transcript without making it a big focus of your homeschool. What many homeschoolers do is set the expectation that an A is the grade awarded for mastery and you don't move on from a subject until he has mastered it.
While some homeschoolers do opt for a totally ungraded transcript it can create headaches. There are some schools that have minimum GPA requirements for particular programs and they may accept a homeschool GPA but may refuse to accept a student with no grades. Also, some scholarship programs, including National Merit, expect to see a transcript with grades.
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Lots of good advice. I would look carefully at the freshman experience - are the classes gigantic? is it difficult to get needed classes? are students engaged on campus? The research suggests that if you look at individuals and try to predict who will drop out one of the biggest factors is level of engagement on campus. Does the student have friends? Are they involved in any campus organizations? Do they go to campus events?
I also encourage families to always ask about academic advising. Who does academic advising and what is their training? How often do students see advisers? Some schools have professionals, typically masters in counseling level, trained to do academic advising and students are assigned an adviser who gets to know them. Some colleges on advising to professor's other responsibilities and don't necessarily provide a lot of training. Other schools don't assign specific advisers so the students may just need to wait in line at their college (such as Arts and Sciences) and see whatever random person happens to be there in order to get their hold removed from their account so they can register. There may not be continuity or good advice.
Bad advising is not reason to rule out a school entirely, but for me it would be a good heads up as a parent that you should make it clear ahead of time that your student really needs to take personal responsibility to carefully plan and that you expect them to graduate in four years. Most colleges have some kind of online tracking system students can check to make sure they are meeting their requirements for general education and their major. Even with good advising at a big school, student really do need to be on top of making sure they have a clear plan to get what they want from their education and still graduate on time. I don't see this as a reason to rule out a school at all, but too many families just assume the college is going to take care of it and their kid will be on track to graduate. That can be a costly assumption. While students have privacy rights through FERPA, I personally have no problem with a parent setting the expectation that if they are paying, they expect to sit down once a semester with their student and look at the online account and see how they are doing with graduation requirements. I don't think it is helicoptering to keep that much of a hand in the process when it is such a huge investment.
ETA: This is kind of obvious, but I would also encourage your daughter to ask everyone she talks to - admissions and faculty about the low retention rate of freshman. Why do they think it is so low? Is the university concerned about it and what if anything is being done.
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Well I've skimmed through both books, and decided it is a lost cause. Yes, dd has a passion. Unfortunately we live in the middle of nowhere and there are not a lot of resources for following that passion. Just very local, non-prestigious music, drama, and dance lessons. There is no place to summer intern. No place to stand out. Nothing thousands of other girls aren't doing, and doing better because they live closer to resources, schools and opportunities.
This really sucks for her, but there is nothing we can do. Dh's will always keep us away from civilization.
So we will just keep on plugging along hoping for the best.
Does she want a career in dance? If so, you are absolutely right. That's very difficulit to do without a certain level of training and experience and that's tough to do in a rural area and tough to do without a lot of resources.
I warned against that What High Schools Don't Tell You book for a reason! The audience for that book is upperclass people who are committed to having kids get into the most selective colleges and have kids who look identical on paper. Same schools, same classes, same life time of activities, same high priced camps. It is about manufacturing some "passion" difference to try to make the kids look different when in reality they are taking 15 AP classes and living a life of grind to try to get into that most competitive college. The packaging may sound like a brilliant idea when you first read the book, but keep in mind admissions officers have read that book too and they can recognize that kind of packaging.
If your kid is from a rural area, has been homeschooled, is a passionate learner, and has had any hand in creating her own experiences - she is already different. The book is not for you. Imagine if you were an admissions officer sitting there with a stack of applications. You get to the one from the kid who had a job working fastfood, wrote a blog about how they would stage Shakespeare plays if they lived some place with more people, raised a goat, etc. That application already stands out. That's not to say it is enough to get in - the test scores, the transcript - it needs to be there too. But, the standing out part isn't going to be difficult.
For kids just starting out high school if your kid has an interest (extracurricular or community service) that lasts all four years of high school, that is definately helpful.
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The PSAT score is intended to be a rough prediction - add a zero to score. But, this is a very rough prediction and it is not always accurate. While the questions are pretty similiar the SAT is longer and it has the essay. Also, it has more emphasis on algebra II. 100 points would be considered not very far off as a prediction though - as scores can easily vary that much for a student from just one SAT test day to another. It may well be with some careful analysis of what he missed and polishing up any trouble areas that he might be able to raise his score a bit.
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Coming in late to the thread... But, back to the question of the 13 year old.
Here's what I'd suggest:
1. Take five to ten minutes to look at the overall picture of college requirements for homeschoolers. There is a difference in what is expected for the most competitive schools, more mid-tier schools and community college. The most important thing to pay attention to at this point -particularly if you have a child who is into STEM or is thinking about competitive colleges, is to look at math. The math decisions for 7th and 8th grade are important because they determine how far they can get through the math sequence and what foundation they have for high school science. So, take a quick look, make some decisions about middle school math, and don't obsess about it now. You can find these requirements on individual college websites, but if you don't know what colleges your student is considering I've also put together a printable chart of homeschool high school requirements and a collection of homeschool admissions policies that you might find to be helpful.
2. Be careful what you choose to read about college. While there are some really good ideas in that "What High Schools Don't Tell You" book that was mentioned earlier in the thread I'm really cautious about that book because at least three different people have called me in panic/tears after reading that book. Of course everybody is different - some people aren't prone to the "oh no I'm screwing up my kid's future" feeling, but if you are the suggestion of wine and chocolate was a good one!
3. If you have colleges in your area, it can be a helpful thing sometime grades 7-10 to get on campus. No formal visits just something really low key like maybe go to the library, to concerts, go to camp, go to the bookstore or the coffee shop. Or, if you happen by a campus while you are on vacation talk a walk through. College is such an abstract concept to a lot of kids and it can be nice for them to just start to get an idea what colleges, both big and small, are like. It is easy to forget when we have a lot of ideas about college that kids sometimes really only have very vague ideas about the whole thing.
4. Please remember most colleges accept most students who apply. Of course you want your child to have a good high school education and to be prepared for a good future, but it doesn't have to be a nonstop rat-race to get there. Even for kids who really want to go to Ivy or other highly selective schools, it can be easier to have a sane life while getting well prepared while you are homeschooling than it is being enrolled in public school. There are different strategies for keeping on that track while making school more manageable.
Best wishes to all!
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I am not disputing the info either, but I can find nothing on GT's website that states that Latin is not acceptable. While I doubt that GT would end up on any of my kids' lists, what concerns me is that other schools may have the same policy as GT, but I would not know if from reading their websites either.
I would have thought that GT would have accepted Latin for the simple fact that some of the public schools in GA offer Latin as a foreign language requirement.
Being the guidance counselor is a daunting task at times. :svengo:
Just for what it is worth though, I'm a counselor and one of my students who was accepted to Georgia Tech this year was an out of state applicant, with two years of Latin (9th and 10th grade) as his only foreign language on his transcript. GT says they do "holistic evaluations" meaning they really look at everything they receive and piece together a full picture of the applicant. I encourage families not to write off a schools without investigating. Also, as a parent of a classics major I have to say please don't write off Latin. Many of our homeschool kids have found some great opportunities and scholarships as a result of having a strong background in classics.
And, just in case I'm in any way unclear... Georgia Tech is super competitive. If your kids are thinking about competitive admissions they would be well advised to look at four years of core subjects including foreign language. I would just be wary of dismissing a college as a possibility over some individual technical requirement your student has not met. If your student is exceptional or strong in other ways, schools that evaluate holistically may still work.
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Great that you are discussing this. I know a high school senior who will be majoring in computer science in college. He was suprised at age 13 to learn that people could get paid for working on computers. Sure, he knew he learned computer languages for fun, but he thought it was only a hobby not nothing peopel could do as a job. Huh? In other words... a lot of kids are totally clueless, so it is best not to assume they really understand the range of careers available and how to go about preparing for them.
My two top suggestions are What Color is Your Parachute for Teens and the O*net
O*net is easy to use and explore - similar information to Occupational Outlook Handbook, which is also a great resource.
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There are two considerations. 1. will it be accepted for admissions 2. will it be accepted to meet the college foreign language requirement.
The vast majority of schools will accept Latin for meeting the high school language requirement. Four years of Latin, especially including AP, can be helpful in admissions. People think of kids who study Latin as being intellectual and also colleges that have classics departments are eager to attract students who may take those classes. The second question is trickier. Some colleges want a modern language particularly for certain majors. If your student is interested in service academies I would pay special attention to those requirements.
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Less than 5% of college money comes from private scholarships, so students should look carefully at their personal circumustances (financial need and academic profile) and plan based on that knowledge. Don't assume the apply for lots of scholarships plan works particularly well for most people. Pay the most attention to how well the college meets financial need (and if they do so through loans or grants) and what sorts of merit aid the student will be eligible for. Also, students need to understand how their college will treat outside scholarships. Some will nicely reduce self help like work or loans. Others it will just reduce the grant amount so it serves no purpose at all.
The other important topic would be avoiding scholarship scams.
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Another consideration, if she's going to be applying for financial aid she should understand student earnings will be weighed differently than parents earnings - she will be expected to contribute a much higher percentage. So, in other words, if she is eligible for need based aid she may receive a lot less based on her earnings in that year off.
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We found this slim lunchbox fits well in a backpack because it is shaped sort of like a book. http://www.ebags.com/product/ebags/slim-lunch-box/88875?productid=1166450&lastSearchTerm=slim+lunchbox
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You might find some helpful stuff here http://www.kbcc.cuny.edu/academicdepartments/english/faculty/Pages/catw_materials.aspx
If you are looking for something really time efficient it might be good to look for an older edition of a textbook used for "developmental English" at community colleges. These will have short high interest essays with specific activities and questions.
You mentioned the SAT - I'd also suggest looking at the ACT. In my experience kids who don't have as well developed vocabularies often do better on the ACT. For test prep and teaching critical reading for college readiness I suggest focusing primarily on nonfiction instead of literature.
Update - Talk to professor or just wait?
in The College Board
Posted
I'm sure this will generate a variety of opinions, but if it was my child I'd encourage him to let it go for now. There is a lot of variation in how professors approach grading and sometimes that includes changes as the semester goes on. Most often professors who decide to be flexible do it in a way that benefits students. I would suggest he focus on studying hard and make sure he is mastering the material as obviously his approach worked well as he earned a high score on a test most students bombed. He has every reason to believe if he continues with the same approach he will do well in this course. If he starts to struggle more as the semester goes on he should seek help at that point but I'd focus that on learning rather than on the grade because when you focus on learning the grades tend to follow.