Woodland Mist Academy
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Posts posted by Woodland Mist Academy
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Yes, the distinction between what some schools prefer has been clarified multiple times. No one has suggested that CLEPs will replace AP credits at schools that don't like or want CLEP credits. But at schools that do give credit for CLEP, there is zero distinction between credit for AP vs credit by CLEP vs credit by SAT subject test vs credit by exam at the school. That is my point. Credit by testing is credit by testing. Most schools' websites make their credit by exam lists very clear. You look at the exam title, you see what score you need and what course credit is given for. An AP's micro test credit is absolutely no different CLEP's micro test credit if both give credit for econ 201.
Your posts, otoh, seem to me to be suggesting a difference in course content. That somehow APs allow a student to explore an interesting subject, but CLEP courses would replace a more interesting course at a university.
That argument makes zero sense. If universities don't give credit for CLEPs or you are aiming for schools that don't take CLEPs, CLEPs are a poor choice.
But if a school gives the exact same credit for CLEP that they do for APs, when you are covering the exact same course content, homemade course with the AP exam at the end is no more of an "interesting course" than taking the exact same course followed by the CLEP exam. Thus,"For my dd, anything she would CLEP out of appears to take the place of a more interesting course at the university" is a strange comment in the context of this discussion when you are saying that she would take an AP course with the AP exam.
That is my point. What we are doing for the class is the exact same content. The only distinction is the test at the end, not the course.
When I mentioned classes, I was referring to outsourced classes. Some high school students prefer outsourced classes, including AP/DE.
My comment to Luckymama was only about the tests. I was just pointing out AP and DE offer credit the same as CLEP, so not taking CLEPs doesn't prevent a student from graduating early, taking higher level courses earlier, or double majoring. Her dd studies for many APs at home. There are various ways to earn college credit if that is the goal.
Some universities and community colleges offer many classes for gen ed requirements that are different from the few CLEP tests offered. CLEP offers 33 exams in 5 subjects. The university offers far more. There are no CLEPs for some of the interesting gen ed classes offered at the university.
YM obviously V.
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??? What is the difference between between being a homeschooler, taking a class at home, and sitting for the AP exam or sitting for the CLEP exam? The only difference is the test. We don't change a thing about the course. Maybe some people randomly pick up a test prep book and simply prep, but I'm not sure what the difference really is for kids actually taking a course and then sitting for the exam??
I think that's been covered up-thread. Some schools see a difference in the tests. For some students this matters. For some schools AP tests are preferred to CLEP tests. I'm not sure I understand your question.For example, most schools will let kids take placement exams. It doesn't require CLEP, AP, or DE. It simply involves taking the placement test. Does that make what they studied any less "studied"?
I think we might be talking past each other. I'm not sure what placement exams have to do with anything I've said.
Ironically, we asked one French dept if dd should DE. (She hasn't taken AP French, either.) The response was no bc what she is doing is beyond what they would expect in the classroom.
I'm not sure why the line is drawn between CLEP and AP. If universities are willing to give credit for CLEP, I am not sure there really is a valid distinction. CLEP credit, otoh, is far more limiting than AP bc the cal exam is only AB. The science exams don't give lab credit, etc. But, just bc a student opts to take the CLEP exam does not mean their course was "less." In my dd's case it is more along the lines of taking the exam whenever she wants vs. 2 weeks in May.
Are you asking a rhetorical question or are you asking me? I'm making the distinction because some schools my dd is considering make the distinction. I'm not directing my comments in this thread toward your dd's decisions. I have no idea about her situation other than what you've posted. I presume the two of you are making the absolute best decision for her. I'm just giving my thoughts which are products of my dd's experiences, situation, and goals. I know they don't apply to everyone. I'm just posting in case someone might be in a similar situation -- not to say other experiences, situations, courses, goals, or decisions are "less". I'm sorry if it came across that way. It certainly wasn't my intention. :001_huh:
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But none of your children had CLEP credits, correct? Just making sure I understand. My point is that choosing an interesting AP or DE class can in some, not all, cases be preferable to CLEP. The credit will still be there.
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Or a third option. By meeting core gen eds through CLEP and APs, kids have the opportunity to explore subjects that they want to take vs required to take. It also opens up opportunities to double/triple major. It can give them more time to participate in UG research. It can allow them to advance and take grad level classes as an UG.
All of those are my dd's reasons for wanting to CLEP out of 30 hrs. She is already planning a double with French and Russian. It will give her more freedom for multiple study abroad opportunities and the ability to explore fields that relate to her languages that might be something she wants to pursue as a career......business, International relations, Econ, etc. she is also looking into programs that will allow her to earn her masters in French while earning her bachelors.
There are lots of reasons. Needing to take fewer hrs to work part-time, participate in sports are just a couple of others I can think of.
Interesting. For my dd, anything she would CLEP out of appears to take the place of a more interesting course at the university. As always, so much depends on majors, etc. Even in the case of a double major, CLEP doesn't make sense for her.
It's personality too. She enjoys classes, as opposed to the self study/test routine. AP classes and DE are just a better fit. With DE she can take the interesting courses and get the credit. It's a win-win.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, I can absolutely imagine a student who has more of a get it done attitude with credits. (I know some of those students. ;) ) I also mentioned reasons such as finances and personality. Those are just two. I'm sure there are many, many more. It's good to know there are lots of interesting paths to many splendid locations. :)
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Is it difficult to find a place to take the tests ?
It can be, which is why it's a good idea to start asking schools early in the school year. Some may give a flat out no, and some may tell you to call back later in the year, but at least you will have time to expand your search area if needed. I started calling in the fall and made final arrangements in late winter.
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What information is needed for the AP exam paperwork? I'm presuming name, address, phone number.
What codes are needed?
Any other information we should be aware of?
Are these forms usually filled in at the meeting before the exam?
Thanks.
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It means that the student was in the top 50K nationally of all test takers. 16K of these students will advance to the next round, while the others will be named as Commended in September. The cut-off scores necessary to advance to the next round vary depending on the student's state.
Thanks! I'm just starting to gather information about NM, so this is very helpful!
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Does the letter mean the student qualified? Or does it just list the cutoff?
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No not terrible because frankly a lot of this stuff feels like a money making scam. And it kinda kills learning in my mind. But if those are the hoops those are the hoops.
On a somewhat related note...
The bolded is another reason CLEP isn't on our radar at this point. My dd is looking forward to some of the elective and general ed classes in college. Some of the classes sound interesting to her, not because they are needed for graduation or for her career, but just for the sake of learning. Sometimes amidst all the college admission and tuition madness it's easy to lose sight of what college can offer a student beyond a degree.
I can absolutely imagine a different type of student that just wants to get 'r done with credits. Sometimes because of finances and sometimes because of personality. That's not the sum total of the experience for all students, though.
So much plays into the AP, DE, CLEP decision.
Back to your point, Sparkly...I agree. So much of it feels like a scam, but if those are the hoops, those are the hoops....
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I'm not sure what CLEP tests would equate to a class required for grad school since they are all only the equivalent of 100 level courses with the exception of the foreign language tests which do get to 200 level classes.
Some states have had their legislatures call on universities to increase the number of credits granted through CLEP. FL is one state that I recently read about: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=1000-1099/1007/Sections/1007.27.html
The only schools that really don't care give any CLEP credit at all are the elites, both public and private. But, the majority of publics do give credit for some CLEPs. For example, UNC does not give credit, but NCSU does. https://admissions.ncsu.edu/apply/credit-opportunities/college-level-examination-program-clep/ UVA doesn't give any, but VT does. https://admissions.ncsu.edu/apply/credit-opportunities/college-level-examination-program-clep/
Baylor is an example of private that does: http://www.baylor.edu/irt/index.php?id=74593
Which is why it's important to consider future goals. Also, just because a school accepts CLEP credit, doesn't mean it's the best route. When students are considered for admittance and/or scholarships, it seems that those with APs and DE are stronger applicants than those with CLEP. Perhaps that will change in the future, but it doesn't seem they have equal status at the moment.
Again, YMMV. It's good there are so many options.
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I'm considering having dd take some CLEPs so that I can justify awarding her an honors credit. I'm not really worried about her testing out of college classes, especially ones that are related to her major.
I've wondered about this. Can a student take the CLEP for the reason you mentioned, but then take the course in college anyway? How does that work? Is the credit not used, just used as an elective credit, or something else?
I can see situations where this might be a good route to take.
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If you only use them to CLEP out of CC gen-ed or Frosh classes - I doubt the future grad school will care
Depends on the grad school. Also, in the part of my post regarding grad schools, I mentioned prerequisite courses, not gen-ed or Frosh classes.
A less distant and perhaps more compelling reason for my dd to leave out CLEPs is because of how some undergrad institutions regard them. Perhaps I was unclear about that in my post, but I have concerns on both the undergrad and graduate levels.
Again, YMMV.
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It's probably be a good idea keep in mind any potential future goals. (Yeah, I know. It's hard enough to plan for next semester, let alone a decade down the road...)
For example, if any of the classes will be a prerequisite for graduate school, CLEP tests may not be accepted unless the student has gone on to take more advanced classes in that subject. In that case, CLEP tests would allow the student to take higher level courses earlier, but it wouldn't free up the schedule or make college cheaper.
When in doubt, leave it out is our mantra right now. That might change, but given how the CLEPs are regarded by some institutions, it's the best choice for my dd at this point in the game.
YMMV. In fact, our mileage may vary at some point in the future. Maybe even next semester. ;)
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AoPS pre-algebra is my all-time favorite math book, even more than its algebra book
Same here. We ended up moving away from AoPS for many reasons partway through the algebra book. One reason was that it wasn't quite the same as the pre-algebra book, which was a better fit for us.
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This is an excellent point. There is a definitely potential for completely unnecessary anxiety problems for some youth, especially if there is history of cancer in their immediate family. I'd be very careful about unleashing assignments like this on young students.
And for some the assignment could be therapeutic. "Unleashing assignments like this" could be a gift. Every family and every student is different. Sometimes a poison is the very thing that cures.
YMMV.
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Priceless! Thanks for the update! Congrats to your family for working through this together. Looks like it was certainly worth the effort!
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Some states require yearly testing. The ACT and/or SAT might meet the testing criteria, depending on the state. Also, some students take the SAT/ACT early for practice or to qualify for various programs or classes. Otherwise, there probably isn't a reason.
If the student is considering taking any SAT Subject tests, you might want to check those dates as well.
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I appreciate the honest reviews. I was toying with signing my son up for that class because he loves the subject. Does anyone know if all the reviews for PA Homeschoolers classes are the result of a final class assignment? That seems extremely unethical. I'm thinking not because one of the classes I was looking at did have a negative review.
I don't think it is required for all the classes, but here are the instructions for Human Geo. reviews from the syllabus:
Talk to us! Post your thoughts on the class website Discussion Board on how the AP exam went. Did you feel ready? Which essay questions did you answer? Any thoughts on how the course went? Congratulations to you all for completing the course! After I receive your responses back on the exam and the course, we'll consider that you have completed the course, and I will then send out your final year-end evaluations on progress.
Class Review - Please post positive comments about your experience in this class on the PA Homeschoolers website for those students thinking about taking APHG next year!
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The bolding in NOT MINE. It is bolded in the syllabus to Please post positive comments.
Possible alternatives that would be much less suspect:
Please give respectful, but honest feedback
Please share what you liked and what you didn't
Positive comments and/or constructive criticism welcome
Keep in mind posting is required before the final grade is given. Sure seems unethical to me...
If nothing else, it's much less helpful to others than honest, open, voluntary reviews would be.
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Each instructor bio also includes a section about how the class is taught. Every teacher has at least a slightly different approach, so you may find reading those helpful. If after watching the clips and reading the bios you still have questions, I highly recommend sending an email. We have found the WTM Academy remarkably responsive to questions.
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The class was a waste of money for us. When a class has no live meetings, the students grade their own essay questions for at least a few months, and the teacher announces to the class that she doesn't have time to answer many questions... Well...I have to wonder what I'm paying for....
If I recall correctly, leaving feedback for the class is an assignment, perhaps the last one. Ever wonder why you don't read many negative comments on the class site??
The assignments also felt a bit like elementary school at times. I don't understand all the positive reviews of the class. Thus far it has been our worst online class experience.
Please note: This post refers only to the Human Geo class. Some other PAHS classes are superb.
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In regards to analyzing primary sources, sometimes just buying the primary source in its entirety works best. Much depends on if you want a broad, more shallow survey or a deeper analysis of fewer texts.
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The Mammoth Book of How it Happened: Eyewitness accounts of history in the making from 2000 BC to the present is a good resource for primary sources.
What draws me to Roberts is that I can see my daughter reading it for pleasure. She has never done that with Ways of the World. For her, sometimes just spreading a feast (a la Charlotte Mason) is enough to prompt spontaneous writings and interest in delving into primary resources.
Obviously every situation is different. Thanks for starting the thread. I hadn't really thought of changing what we're doing until now. Hope you find something that works for you. :)
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Ways of the World is actually frequently recommended. :)
We are using it. Several others are as well.
Not a textbook, but a great read: The History of the World by Roberts. It's now in a 6th edition by Roberts/Westad.
Amazon.com: The History of the World (9780199936762): J. M. Roberts, O. A. Westad: Books
Peace,
Janice
Enjoy your little people
Enjoy your journey
Let me rephrase my above post. We were using Ways of the World until this morning. That may change because the book Janice listed looks so tempting! ;)
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Ways of the World is actually frequently recommended. :)
We are using it. Several others are as well.
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Thoughts regarding CLEP?
in High School and Self-Education Board
Posted
I use interesting because my DD isn't taking all AP or DE, only the ones of particular interest to her. That's all. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying or what you want me to say.