dereksurfs
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Posts posted by dereksurfs
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I think this really misses the point of mastering math for the sake of mastering it, rather than jumping through hoops for college admissions committees. :confused:
Let me ask a difficult question to consider. Are these goals necessarily mutually exclusive? In other words do you think it is possible for some to work toward both simultaneously?
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Did you purchase the HS version? I cancelled my KB alg 1 today. I need a solutions guide & answer key. It's a fabulous program but I need more hand-holding. :)
Whoa, that is *very* interesting Beth, especially since we are evaluating it and TabletClass right now! After using both we are leaning toward TabletClass. It offers answers to all the test questions. Plus there are step-by-step solutions to test questions in video format. On top of that John Zimmerman, the author, is quick to respond to any user questions.
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Both ways seem feasible for my guy--but to be honest, when I asked him about doing just algebra, his eyes lit up. And I agree that many programs are more challenging than others so I don't want to make a huge jump and have him struggle. That would be a shame, and unnecessary.
Thank you all, I was quite in a tailspin after reading this thread--but this seems more manageable now.
justamouse, this sounds like a perfect opportunity to turn things around for him. One additional word of advice. Be careful what you select and include him in the process. Let him see the programs/materials you are considering. There are quite a few Algebra 1 offerings with trials. I suggest you consider more than one. It can be surprising how some work better for one child over others even in the same family. And you could start with an easier program such as MUS, Lial, etc.., then follow-up with something more challenging in 8th grade. He may also enjoy the computer based programs such as KineticBooks.
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This is what I've found, but, with my guy in 7th, pre alg/alg is 'what's next'. If I don't do it-what would I do? I'm asking honestly. This problem is why Colleen's spreading alg out over 7/8 sounds like a good deal. Slow isn't a bad thing!
Man, after reading the whole thread, I'm even more confused. My son in 7th is hating pre alg, because it's just review to him.
Another thing I would recommend if this is the case. Consider the 'three strands approach' which consists of review, current subject matter and advanced topics. In this case Pre-Algebra covers mostly review. So introduce some algebra as well for the advanced topics for him to get his feet wet. You could do Pre-A 3x a week followed by Algebra 2x or some combination thereof. We were doing that with Primary Math and Pre-A last year. This seems to work well in building mental bridges to the next level and ds11 seemed to really enjoy the added challenge.
Something else to look at is the type of Pre-A he is doing. I've noticed some programs can be more challenging than others. With ds11 I'm moving to what I consider more challenging Pre-A from MUS. He is testing out KineticBooks and TabletClass right now. Of course AoPS is known to be super challenging. However its discovery approach is not for everyone.
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This is what I've found, but, with my guy in 7th, pre alg/alg is 'what's next'. If I don't do it-what would I do? I'm asking honestly. This problem is why Colleen's spreading alg out over 7/8 sounds like a good deal. Slow isn't a bad thing!
Man, after reading the whole thread, I'm even more confused. My son in 7th is hating pre alg, because it's just review to him.
Yeah, I'm in the boat with my son. He is doing Pre-Algebra in 6th grade because he finished and mastered primary mathematics. And I know there are parents here of even younger students who just seem to get things earlier in life than the state standards. If they are ready to move on and are grasping abstract mathematical concepts then why hold them back? That said I also agree with some points TaraTheLiberator made about mastery before advancement. It really is a fine balance in providing that 'just right challenge' which is different for each child. In my son's case I will let him take his time with Algebra in 7th and 8th grade to really let the concepts solidify. I think Algebra is the most important subject to truly master since all other secondary math builds upon it as the foundation.
However for my younger girls, who knows. They may or may not be ready for secondary math as early as he is. And I think that's ok too. ;)
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I have read this thread with great interest. I'm sure Amber didn't realize her innocent little question would stir such a hornet's nest. :D But if one is honest about it, it really does beg the question of why we care to introduce Algebra so early in the first place? TaraTheLiberator, makes some compelling points about really getting the foundational skills down solid vs. rushing through a bunch of courses to appease college boards somewhere. However when considering the other side of the coin some do take college entrance board criteria more seriously, especially if their child is working toward getting into a more difficult school, not necessarily Ivy League.
I see valid points from both sides of this argument and appreciate the input. I'll add in my perspective of things. As a senior software engineer who is on a hiring team for a fortune 500 Co. I find we don't put as much weight on 'Ivy League' pedigrees. However for other fields this may be more important. Once out of school and looking for a job, experience even while in school through internships and part-time work is much more important than where the degree came from, as long as its accredited of course. Now I do know of *some* companies who like to hire Stanford grads in the Bay area for example, especially if the founders are from there themselves. But overall I don't see this as a limiting factor for professional development in the IT industry if someone is truly good at what they do.
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I think Algebra 1 readiness depends upon the curriculum. Different curriculum have different scope and sequences for pre-algebra and algebra 1
Yes, this does depend some on your current curriculum's scope and sequence. However you can always deviate from that if you think your child is ready and has mastered the fundamentals of arithmetic which regentrude mentioned.
For example I see that you are using CLE which can drag out Pre-Algebra for two years. They even call it 7th and 8th grade Math. However I know a number of parents have either accelerated this by combining both into one year or skip either CLE 700 or 800. Then move into Algebra *before* 9th grade. Our two daughters are using CLE and we will most likely do something similar once they finish 600.
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I guess the take away for us thinking of using it next year is to purchase in advance. :D
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With MUS it really depends how many sections you do per day. There are typically six sections (A-F) followed by the chapter test. As others have mentioned each section doesn't have too many problems. Initially we did *every* section followed by the test (not all in one day). But then we found that was unnesesary unless our dc was having trouble in an area. At that point we do more. If you only do one section per day it shouldn't take too long. But this will vary depending on the concept being taught. It also depends if you are listening to the short video lecture. In Pre-Algebra now we are doing 1.5-2 sections per day plus the video and it takes ~ an hour.
Since both have a different scope and sequence I think it would be less confusing if you alternated days. For example 3 days MUS/ 2 days TT. Then spend more time on each absorbing the material and going a bit further with them on their respective days.
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I was noticing that the website states the lessons take 1-2 hours. :blink: Ds13 would not do well on any kind of math for that long. I'm hoping that the pacing guide they provide is doable in less amount of time? Ds doesn't do well sitting for long periods of time on same subject..he loses his concentration and feels overwhelmed. As it is we do about 20 min of KB then we move to HOE. I'm afraid this schedule won't provide us enough time to finish it in the school year so he's ready for Alg next year?
Any thoughts?
Hm, 1-2 hours sounds like it varies quite alot. If it seems too long maybe you could break it up some - lesson, then homework later? I do think most math especially going forward from Algebra on will generally require this amount a time per day. But some may get away with 45 minutes or less if they work faster. In PS aren't most math classes ~ 1 hour just for the lecture? Maybe thet are basing it upon that.
I double checked and on top of the free trial they also offer 90 return policy which is pretty generous. So if after trying the full HS program you are not happy you could get a full refund.
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I heard from customer service. Unless I purchase the Homeschool version, I do not have access to the pacing guide or the homework generator. I've only signed up for the trial period so I'm outta luck. :001_huh:
I may just have to buy it since ds loves it so much. I just really wanted to get a feel for it before I bought it.
Thanks, everyone, for the advice!
Stephaine, if you decide to purchase it could you report back after a while. It will help as I'm trying to decide between it and a couple of others. We will also give the trial a go first to see how ds11 likes it.
Thanks,
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I wonder how these would work on a eReader (Kindle, Nook, iPAD, Android tablet)? Has anyone tried it? I didn't any smaller format listed on the website.
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Can you switch things around in his course load to make sure he has either one class (an elective, perhaps) that WOULD be enjoyable? Or change what you're doing for one class and do one required course with lighter more enjoyable material? Or reduce course load enough to make sure there is time for his involvement for at least one enjoyable extracurricular? Or schedule once a week some special time to do an interesting field trip / theater outing / a hike or trip to the beach / have hot chocolate and relaxed chat? Or schedule subjects on a rotating schedule so that he gets to drop one class per week and enjoy a hobby or personal interest?
Getting out of the house, being willing to skip a little of formal school for a few hours once a week, scheduling time for something he particularly enjoys -- that can cut the "have tos" feeling and help make the transition into high school easier.
I don't think I'd wait for "next year"... Especially for 9th grade, I think this is *critical* for helping student make the transition to the full load of "big kid" work that counts towards college/career. Goodness, none of us adults would like having day after day of just "have-tos" and such a no-time-for-joy schedule either! :)
BEST of luck in sorting out what would encourage and lift DS's hopes and include some joy in this school year! Warmest regards, Lori D.
This is really giving me a lot to think about with our own kids. It seems like a fine balance between rigor, preparation and letting kids enjoy just being kids, having some fun throughout their days. I really think hard work is important for brain development and personal growth. However I can get carried away with our kids at times, especially the oldest. I was just talking with my wife about this last night in fact. There was a thread on here asking a similar question. At what stage should school no longer be fun, middle school, high school? 9th grade is a tough year of transition and added responsibilties for all kids. I'm not sure if there is any getting away from that. But I think Lori has some great ideas in making it a bit more enjoyable along the way.
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I just looked at the pacing guide, and did one line of that a day when scheduling. However...it seems that didn't account for the "kinetic homework" I just found on the program...not sure what to do about that.
Maybe the homework is designed for the HS edition as more of a standalone curriculum. Actually I think KB support mentioned this when I called them and asked what the differences are between the two editions. From what others users are describing the single lesson sounds on the shorter side of things. I think the homework consist of extra problem sets related to the same lesson.
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I am planning to use it with Life of Fred Beginning Algebra. Some of RW Algebra is well above pre-algebra, but you can pick and choose what suits your child.
Thanks, yeah, I was planning to only use part during Pre-A. I typically like to suppliment from the next level of math while working on the current level. And because this looks so interesting I think it would provide a fun, fresh perspective of Algebra. Djkapp on the HS forum mentioned it requiring a student to have completed quite a bit of pre-algebra first. And that's ok as I plan to introduce it gradually over time, sprinkling it in.
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Dd is using it for an hour -- 3x/week. No set pace. No hurry. :001_smile:
Thanks for the response Beth. If I understand you are using this as a supplimental to NEM & Cybershala vs. a standalone, correct? That approach may work for us as well since my son will be combining this with MUS Pre-A. I have heard from other users that KB also works well as a complete curriculum. I guess it just depends on one's teaching style and preferences.
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I am wondering the same thing since I'm considering it for ds11. Did you buy the standard version or the HS version? The reason I ask is that I thought the HS version had suggested daily pacing with it. But I may be wrong. Also if one lesson is relatively short have you considered doing 1.5 or 2 per day until things get more challenging or time consuming?
I think Beth is using this now. Hopefully she or another KB user can chime in as well. :bigear:
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I'm all for giving our students a quality education that will not hinder their future no matter what they decide to 'do'.
Your son is young.. he will most likely change his mind multiple times every year!
College is NOT for everyone. Way too many students are going to college and end up getting a 'degree' that has no job potential... or they drop out and feel like failures... College is just a means to an end and there are many different options for 'ends/future jobs'.
I agree with what you are saying. Many students finish their degrees in business, communications or something else generic simply because they didn't really know what they wanted to do when they grew up.
However I think hearing this would concern us all. One of the primary reasons it would for me is that I see a college education becoming more and more a de facto standard, similar to what a HS education was considered 20+ years ago. What I mean by this is that many, dare I say most employers tend to expect a college education. This is not so much true for the teenager jobs in the mall or at Starbucks, but rather to advance in one's professional career.
Now that being said there is nothing wrong with taking a break and working fulltime for a while until one has a better idea of what one wants. For example changing tires may lead one to want to go into an advanced technical training of some kind. Or maybe working in construction would lead into wanting to pursue a construction management degree or certificate.
I think college prep level courses are still important in HS so as not to limit one's future potential. Even for apprenticeship programs in the trades a solid math background is important including algebra and trig. This is also true for the liberal arts directed young people who one day decide to switch to a more science/math oriented career to support their family. I have seen this career switching quite a number of times with both friends and fellow coworkers. One associate was a pyschology major turned IT professional, another was a graphic artist breaking into IT.
I have also seen the case where a talented, naturally gifted employee is forever handicapped because of the lack of a 'piece of paper.' To many this simply shouldn't be, but unfortunately it is in certain business situations.
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I am curious who owns this book and how you may have integrated it with your primary math curriculum?
I am thinking it might be a great suppliment to a Pre-Algebra program in helping my son see abstract math in action.
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I am curious who owns this book and how you may have integrated it with your primary math curriculum?
I am thinking it might be a great suppliment to a Pre-Algebra program in helping ds11 see abstract math in action.
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Y'know, that kind of thing is really difficult to sum up. If you ask about any specific skill, I can either tell you what we use that skill for or that we don't really use it outside of technical fields but it's in the algebra course to provide an introduction for further study. But the whole course is a bit more difficult.
I've looked at this book before and thought it would be really helpful for answering those types of questions. Maybe it would be a worthwhile supplement for you, as the mom?
Disclaimer: I don't have this book yet. But it's not that expensive and I've heard really good things about it, and the preview was excellent. I'm going to buy it during my first year of teaching fulltime (hopefully coming up next year!)
http://www.amazon.com/Real-World-Algebra-Edward-Zaccaro/dp/0967991528
Oh wow, this book looks really good. I wonder how one might integrate it within a normal math program. I am even thinking of using it as a suppliment to Pre-Algebra. It looks like a great what to help kid 'see' abstract math in everyday life. This might be worth a separate thread to pose the question to the group.
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Hehe. It is thick, and wordy! But we watched two videos today and his personality is great and really makes the books "fun".
Another successful day with AOPS. I am beginnng to think that we might transition to aops and use mm 6 as a supplement for any challenging areas. He needs work more on geometry than arithmetic.
Whoah Halcyon, slow down now...:tongue_smilie: Haha. Just kidding. That's awesome! Your brief experimentation has opened up all kinds of interesting possibilities. If your son seems to like it enough I say why not bring it in more? That's is one of the big advantages of homeschooling. You get to try new things and design your own approaches. He's at the age where taking a couple of years to finish AoPS Pre-A along with other supplimentals would be perfectly fine. In fact it might allow these newer concepts a chance to really sink in before starting Algebra 1.
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Thanks so much. I can't believe I didn't think about a disc. I have contacted Sam's and have a cd on order. This is a lifesaver.
Your photos were stunning. I will definitely check out Smug Mug.
Cindy
Glad to help Clindy. :D I always appreciate hearing about young photographer and would really enjoy seeing their work at some point.
SmugMug is a very good deal for all that you get including unlimited storage starting at $40/year. It also gives them a great place to showcase their photos to family, friends and others.
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Why study any subject in HS if the the child is not sure what he wants to do upon graduation? I mean seriously, you can go down the list of standard HS subjects and courses and wonder what it is really needed for in the first place? And the same can be asked in the first two years of college while completing one's 'general education' requirements as well. Personally I 'never' enjoyed History of any kind while in HS. Who cares what a bunch of old, dead people did anyway fighting wars which had little to do with my life at the time? It wasn't until later in life that my appreciation for it grew, at least to a degree. But did I need it to perform my job? No. The same can be said for foreign languages or music appreciation and on and on it goes.
Algebra, however, is so fundamental to all Secondary Math and Science that it is the most important math class a HS student will ever take. If they do nothing else in HS Math, Algebra should be the priortity IMO. This is assuming they don't have learning disabilites or handicaps because of down syndrome or other physical/mental disabilites which they were born with.
Most colleges and universities have this as a minimum standard for entry or higher anyway. Why limit a child before they are even are aware of what they may or may not want to do later in life? Interests and majors change as one matures as a young adult. These can take them in many different directions both scholastically and vocationally.
Algebra I in 8th grade
in Logic Stage & Middle Grade Challenges
Posted · Edited by dereksurfs
I did not mean my question in a facetious sort of way but rather one to consider on a case by case basis. For some children I think both *may* be attainable. Yet at the same time I don't want to discount or dilute the importance math mastery as the primary objective. I think that is the thrust of the other side of the arguement and points which were made. Too often it may seem that kids and parents are rushing through math, checking off all the boxes, in a mad dash to impress admission committees. Then the math and science professors find freshman students weak in their most fundamental math skills.
Ultimately I think it is best to emphasize mastery first with adequate challenges along the way. Then see where the child lands. Some end up ready for more advanced topics earlier while others are not. Both are ok in my mind as all children and adults have different gifts and abilities.