dereksurfs

August 23, 2012

I guess my family would fall into the camp of not by-the-book. My dd started with the AoPS pre-algebra book last year at age 10. There is no way I could have simply handed her the book and said, "Go at it." We work together on the section chapter problems: I read the questions to her while she is working on the white board. After she completes the section chapter problems and we have gone over the comments in the book, then she watches the videos. She then does the practice problems and Alcumus alone. My middle child is just at the point where he is working alone in the book, but last year I used the same approach that I am using with my dd.

Snowbeltmom, thanks for posting. I was hoping to hear from some who do things little differently than the prescibed way. I also notice you have all three children in AoPS. It looks like you adapted a method that has worked best for your family.

Just out of curriousity do you go through the books on your own or do you have them in the online classes or both? The reason I ask is because the classes seem to be a breakneck speeds which are probably fine for many. However if a child needs to slow down and really work on a concept more it might be difficult to then catch up.

August 23, 2012

thowell, Sorry to hear about your situation. It might help us give suggestions knowing a little more about your dd12's math experience. Was there something she didn't like about Systematic Mathematics last year? What level of math is she taking currently? With getting such low scores you may want to emphasize more of a mastery approach in which she only moves on after scoring 90% or higher on the tests/quizzes. True undertanding is the goal vs. simply finishing something. Since she did just 'ok' last year it may be important to go back and fill in some gaps missed during that time. Once someone gets into Secondary Math things really build on previous concepts learned. That is why having a strong Algebra background is so important for all the other math and science to follow.

I think your idea of taking her out of the current program is the right direction since it clearly is not working for her at least at this time.

August 23, 2012

Ah, but this is not how the process is meant to work! The point of AoPS is to have the kids wrestle with the problems before listening to any lectures or reading anything in the book. They are encouraged to try independent problem solving. Having a teacher/parent present who has the math knowledge to solve the problem and can "help" defeats the purpose, because it turns what is supposed to be a discovery into direct instruction.

One can certainly use AoPS that way, but it is not the intent of the program. If my kid sits and puzzles over one question for 30 minutes, that is exactly what is supposed to happen - instead of a parent stepping in after five minutes and "suggesting" a particular approach. So, being unavailable during math time is actually a good thing!

Yes, I can see that this approach is quite different from conventional math instruction. The idea of struggling over one question for 30 minutes prior to any instruction while fun or challenging for some may be torture or simply not work for others. Does that mean AoPS is not for the later group of kids who may need help after lets say 10 or 15 minutes? Maybe, maybe not.

If one is to struggle for 30 minutes and still cannot solve then what? I guess I'm just trying to understand the AoPS way.

Lastly what of the families who use AoPS more loosely vs. by-the-book per se. Would you still consider some value to be found there? I've heard some who like the material but not necessarily the approach for certain children.

August 23, 2012

Lori, has given you some tremendous suggestions. I think there are two primary approaches to consider:

1. Go with another Pre-Algebra after TT which is visually based such as MUS (also mastery), KineticBooks(more rigorous), TabletClass, possibly Derek Owens. Most these have sample lectures you and your son can check out first.

2. Start with a 'gentler' Algebra such as TT, MUS, Jacobs. Some use these as mental bridges or 'Pre-Algebra' to a more difficult Algebra 1 program. Then spend more time slowing down where needed. Eventually move into more challenging Algebra after general principles and concepts are solidified.

In either case I recommend involving him in the process more so that he feels his input is valid as well. Let him see a few programs you feel may be a good fit to see if they connect with him. If you still find TT works the best that ok also. But you then may want to consider moving to or supplimenting with something that has more depth and rigor before moving into Geometry. BTW, TT Geometry is considered to be more at grade level in scope and sequence than some of the other TT courses.

August 23, 2012

I have not used the prealgebra (did not exist when we needed it), but the subsequent books are written to the student and do not require the presence of a teacher. Since the student can just work through them, they require no lesson planning or scheduling and are not time consuming for the parent at all.
I work and homeschool, and my kids work independently with the AoPS texts (starting with Intro to Algebra in 6th grade). It works very well, and I deal with questions and clarifications in the afternoon after work. We always get the solution manual, and the kids can self-check their work.

(I am not trying to talk you into it; there may be other reasons why the program is not a good fit - but the situation you mentioned does not pose the obstacle.)

regentrude, you bring up some interesting points based on your own experiences. From my limited perspective, not having used AoPS yet, I think this may be true for some students but not all, especially if the child may be considered somewhat average (whatever that means). I base this upon what Julie has stated above for her children in AoPS currently:

I think an average kid could use the book, but not without help at my home.My kids need someone to hold their hand, help them wrestle with the hard problems, look askance at things that are completely new, etc. They need someone to look at what they are doing and say, I think you need a little more help in this area (then I pull my NEM book and do a few problems).

Even my mathy kids would have trouble tackling it on their own.

I think this may be an individual thing where some children could simply listen the lectures, do alcumus, read the book and then go about doing the problems more independently. While others who struggle more will need more intervention/hand holding along the way. Since the problems are known to be difficult without much practice or review I could imagine help/guidance being needed. In your case you are able to provide this help after work. And your kiddos seem pretty independent, able to wait until you get off work for the help they need. Hmm, I guess I could do that as well. I'm just not sure my wife or children would be comfortable not being able to address problems as they arrise at home. Being ok with not being able to figure something out and then going back to it later is another skill which is very good to have. But not all children have developed it at the younger ages.

August 23, 2012

Yes, we're DEFINITELY out then! She hates that feeling! :tongue_smilie:

Yeah, I think there is enough info on this forum about the AoPS approach to know its not the best fit for us either. This would not work with our family since my wife homeschools during the day while I'm at work. And math is not her strong subject nor does she have the kind of time needed since we have younger children she works with as well.

August 22, 2012

bump

August 22, 2012

I don't think the accelerated/average student is as important as whether or not your child likes how AoPS presents the material.

That's a good point regarding the AoPS Discovery approach. Though I have heard from some parents who use it in a heavily modified way. For example the instruction could be presented first - perish the thought. :tongue_smilie: Then the text and questions could follow. While far from their original intent this may just work better for some children. At that point however it makes one wonder if it would simply be better to use another program entirely.

August 22, 2012

Interersting question. I look forward to hearing the responses. From what has been previously reported here by quite a few parents it is not for a child who doesn't really enjoy wrestling with math vs. having things explained to them first. We did experiment with their Alcumus program and my son grew quickly frustrated with it and he usually enjoys math for the most part. This 'Discovery' approach might be a very subjective love it/hate it kind of experience.

August 22, 2012

Great discussion, thanks! I'm carefully reading each post.
...

Dereksurfs-I would consider Derek Owens as a possibility-the free trial is great to see how it works. I don't know much about TabletClass-I had never heard of it before. I just looked the site over carefully but didn't start the free trial (can you do it more than once? once so I can look at it, and then for her to start it?) My big question about that is: how do you know it has a good conceptual base? ( I am off now to look at the You Tube link, thanks.) And I see you are doing MUS Pre-Alg and mentioned it is light-can you please give me a more detailed summary of your impressions about it? What do you think about what I said up thread-that it is ten minutes to present the topic and then you're hung out to dry? (not very incremental, like with daily lessons)

HappyGrace,

When I describe MUS as light I am referring more to the level of difficulty compared to more rigorous programs such as AoPS, KB, BJU, etc... That doesn't mean that it doesn't cover enough material in terms of scope and sequence. Since my son seems to really enjoy math I would like to add in challenge. I want to help him learn to wrestle with more difficult problems. That is why I am considering more challenging programs to use with it.

The MUS short lectures have been fine for him so far. I would like more full lectures simply to prepare him for that style of instruction in his future. Derek Owens builds that into his courses along with note taking.

TabletClass's owner and author is a very helpful gentleman by the name of John Zimmerman. He will answer any questions you have in a very timely and friendly manner, similar to Derek Owens. We haven't started the free trail yet because I also want to wait until my son is ready to use it. Then if we like it he can use it for a month during our evaluation period. But he does have youtubes of his lectures available to listen to. This gives you a pretty good idea of his instruction style. I like his use of the white board as well as the way he explains the concepts. Take a look at this thread describing the use of it by Beck. She has very good things to say about it. You may want to PM her for more details. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showthread.php?t=412675&highlight=tabletclass

August 22, 2012

This would work better with a slightly above average, interested math student. It looks intense. KB Alg 1 is very intense.

Beth, do you consider KB Pre-Algebra intense or rigorous as well in terms of prep for Algebra 1?

August 22, 2012

Warning:::Minor thread jack..When I look at HOE, I only see ways to teach a student to solve a 1st order, linear equation. Does this program teach anything else? I ask because the HOE program seems expensive for what you get.

Lori D. wrote brilliantly about her use of HOE over on this thread, and I can't help but think of it every time someone discusses HOE.

I don't think Lori gave it a bad review as in *Warning* don't use this. She just described various options to consider as well. In her case they went through it super fast. We have not. Instead we use it more incrementally along with our core curriculum. Also there are enough families who have found it to be useful that I don't think any single critique would mean don't use it.

The main thing to keep in mind is that it is a supplemental. This is not a full Pre-Algebra program. Rather I think it is best for introducing abstract math concepts to kids who are used to concrete opertations in a visual way they can easily comprehend. It goes through single and multi-variable equations along with negative numbers. It won't go through things like the Pythagorean Theorem for example, something covered in MUS Pre-Algebra. And I definately want to go more in depth in Pre-Algebra than with what HOE offers. That is why we are using a full Pre-Algebra curriculum. Others may choose to piece together their own Pre-A program from supplementals and review of their own materials. That's simply another way to go.

August 22, 2012

Derek,
Can you tell me what i need to buy if want to use HOE for Pre-algebra? There is an apps version for a few dollars to use on iPad and I am considering it. Thanks!

We do not have an iPad and I haven't looked at that part of it. So I can't really say what you need with it. For the standard edition we got the DVD which teaches the lessons and the manipulatives for visually solving equations. I think the iPad version takes the place of the manipulatives. But I don't know about the instructions. You could give them a call to verify. If we had iPads and that version was out when we purchased it I would definately consider that route. Hopefully they will work on an Andriod version as well since thats what we use for eReaders.

August 22, 2012

It might possibly be Jacobs? Which would be encouraging because I've read before, as well as up thread, that it is gentle and also has review.

But that could change so I want to have her as prepared as possible. Which definitely means a solid pre-alg curric.

With Jacobs you could use the AskDrCallahan lectures as well.

August 22, 2012

Thanks, everyone!
...

What I would love to do is MM6 plus HOE as pre-algebra (and supplement with Kahn where more explanation is needed), but as stated above thread, I don't think that is enough to count as a full pre-algebra. (She is going into a private school the next yr and needs to be ready for algebra.)

Hmm, if this is the case I think something with a bit more structured lectures would be good preparation for private school.

Take a look at the Derek Owens Pre-Algebra course. His lectures are very clear and more in depth than what MUS offers.

Also have look at http://www.tabletclass.com/courses/prealgebra.aspx

These are full lessons as well which have been reviewed well by other here.

I would have your dd listen to these and see what she thinks about them. I want my son to build the classroom listening, note taking and studying skills that these introduce along with the math.

August 21, 2012

Hi Happy, can you go back and explain this? So you're saying the MUS explanations were *clicking* but seem light? And you need something incremental/spiral?

In general, I wouldn't advise changing if something is working. I haven't used MUS, but I gather some people add the Keys to books onto it. Or just keep going.

...

That algebraic thinking will happen when it happens. That's why people who've taught these ages put in gr 7 materials that utterly repeat and bridge between gr 6 (basic math) and gr 8 (pre-algebra), because during that year the kids become utter idiots and forget 2+3. Not all do, but some do. And some might hit that level but just aren't ready to go on.

I say pick something that can get done and live in peace. I really think they're all ok. If you sit with her, ANY of the standard options will be fine. Even if they're not awesome, all the content will get repeated in Algebra 1, where you'll have the chance to use a different curriculum if you want. You're not locked in by anything you chose this year. You can chose poorly and it will still be FINE. :)

Very good points OhElizabeth. Some of us tend to overthink these areas, myself definately included. I think we look at it in light of our own experiences with Algebra for better or worse. The fact is many kids struggle during this stage of development - from concrete to abstract reasoning. And we will have to work with each one individually as they go through it. For some it is more of a struggle than others. Math was my favorite subject in school until computers came along anyway. However I struggled like crazy during Algebra for whatever reason. But once I got it everything else just seemed to make sense and followed pretty easily through Calculus. Looking back I think my junior HS was ill prepared for children that wanted to advance beyond basic math. Once I got ahead of my class the teacher really didn't know what to do with me. I don't think they even had the concept of Pre-Algebra back in the stone age. :D Its because of that hindsight that some of us are looking for ways to make the transition somewhat smoother for our kiddos. But struggle is inevitable at some point.

August 21, 2012

I guess my confusion stems from that most beginning algebra texts I've seen (including Jacob's, as an example), include pre algebra review in the first several chapters, before diving into Algebra I.
I plan to use MM6 with something like Hands on Equations as pre-algebra, before entering a gentle but thorough algebra like Jacob's (which has a pre algebra review built in).

By the way - how do you like Hands on Equations? I've seen mixed reviews on using it for older children. I want it though :D.

I think there are many paths to the same educational goals, in this case transitioning from Primary to Secondary Math. One approach I heard on here which I really liked was three stranded. Basically it consists of reviewing previous core areas, learning current subject matter and introducing advanced topics continuously. In working toward this approach we're using Hands on Equations as a way to introduce advanced concepts and its been great for our kids. ds11 still uses it and likes it. We were just talking about this a few days ago. I was explaining some of my goals and plans I have for him in preparing for Algebra and beyond. He then began to describe all the things he's learning already about equations with variables from HOE. We will most likely continue to use it this year as a supplimental to our primary Pre-Algebra program.

Another approach I considered was something you actually described in part. That is start out with an easier, gentler Algebra 1 like MUS, Jacobs, TT, etc... Then move into a more rigorous program like Foerster Algebra 1. I am now planning a hybrid of that. Basically I want my son to complete a more challenging Pre-Algebra course such as a Derek Owens class. Then move directly into Foerster and Math without Borders or something equivalent (still considering a few options). However I plan to spend more time with it and really slow down where needed to solidify difficult concepts. Using this approach we will probably spend 7th & 8th grade going over Algebra 1. Of course I'll continue introducing geometric concepts as we go.

August 21, 2012

While I understand Maria doesn't consider MM 6 to be "pre algebra", I would (very respectfully) disagree - just for our personal situation. She covers in MM 6 *almost* everything that is covered in a standard pre algebra program (and pre algebra really isn't anything more than review of arithmetic with a bit of algebra mixed in)... especially if you add in her pre algebra worksheets. Many Math Mammoth users have no problem going directly from Math Mammoth to Algebra I. Just my 2 cents :D.

Aimee, I haven't heard too much about folks going straight into Algebra from MM6. But I could imagine it. Though I would think most use some sort of review along with algebraic conceptual materials as a bridge between primary and secondary Mathematics. All agree that Pre-Algebra is mostly review with the addition of some Algebraic concepts involving variables. For us it acts as a mental bridge or introduction to the more difficult concepts which will soon follow. That is why we use other supplimentals as well such as Hands-on-Equations.

With regards to her worksheet she emphasizes that they are only supplimental. She also states that these worksheets cannot replace a textbook as they do not contain the explanations of the concepts. Based on her own comments I'm not sure MM6 would be enough of a reference to accompany these worksheets. I am inclined to think she would recommend one of the textbooks or programs from her Pre-Alegbra webpage. It will be interesting to see over time if Maria adds a complete Pre-Algebra program to her offerings like Singapore has with its Discovering Mathematics.

August 21, 2012

You know, we're planning on trying Math Mammoth. It is very conceptual (like Singapore), but UNLIKE Singapore, I find it easier to start late in the game (with Singapore, it seems to miss something special if you aren't very familiar with the method taught from the get-go); with Math Mammoth, I feel comfortable just jumping in (we've used her skill sets before). She has a ton of free samples on her site (Maria Miller) and she is super helpful if you e-mail her.

Aimee, we have tried MM at least in part and liked it as an alternative for primary math. But MM really doesn't go into Pre-Algebra and beyond. Maria has a good resource page on Pre-Algebra here: http://www.mathmammoth.com/complete/prealgebra.php

The one thing I did notice however which I hadn't seen before are the Pre-Algebra supplimental worksheets: http://www.mathmammoth.com/worksheets/grade_7.php

This may be a good suppliment for lighter or less conceptual programs. Maria states:

These prealgebra problem sheets have been "hand-crafted" one by one, and include very variable problems, including problems that emphasize understanding of concepts and word problems.

August 21, 2012

We are using MUS Pre-Algebra right now and I agree that it is somewhat light. Yet the honors questions in the newest edition help in part to add some challenge. A number of folks have successfully used MUS Pre-A followed by MUS Algebra 1 as a pre-Algebra program and primer for more challenging Algebra to follow. Since you also consider it light you could accelerate MUS Pre-A with every other subsection followed by the chapter test. Using this approach it could be finished much quicker.

I have decided to springboard off MUS Pre-A into a more challeging Pre-A for this year. I am strongly leaning toward Derek Owens with video lectures. I like the fact that this will teach my son son listening and note taking skills as well. http://www.lucideducation.com/?p=Prealgebra.php

The other two I am considering are:

http://www.tabletclass.com/homeschool/overview.aspx

http://math.kineticbooks.com/preAlgebra.php

These should be more rigorous than MUS and they all have free samples and/or trials. I plan to test them out with my son after he gets through ~ the first half of MUS Pre-A.

Although everyone seems to rave about AoPS I just don't think the discovery approach would be a the best fit for him. He tried some of the samples on their website and became very frustrated with it.

August 20, 2012

This is no longer true. CLE now has the NEW Sunrise Algebra 1; see the 2012-2013 CLE catalog for details.

Yes, Michelle. I actually mentioned that above and created a separate thread on the topic of the new Sunrise Algebra 1 here: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showthread.php?t=344661

However it is still very new. You can see GVA's comments on CLE's new Algebra 1 after stopping by their wharehouse recently to look it in that thread.

August 20, 2012

We did a lot of rigorous science in the high school years here, and my kids are both STEM majors at college. What prepared them well for higher level science? Two things: a strong foundation in math and the ability to read and comprehend difficult material. That's what we emphasized in the early years.

So for science in the early and middle years, we strove for broad exposure, some lab work, & keeping interest levels high. We made lots of trips to the science museum, read science magazines, checked out lots of library books, played with experiment kits...

Rainbow Science was a real winner for us in middle school! Both of my kids spent two years enjoying this program (one in grades 6/7 and the other in grades 7/8). They are creative, visual, right-brained sorts. The program looks fun and easy, but the concepts and vocabulary are solid.

Here's a link to a previous post I wrote about Rainbow Science. One thing that I forgot to mention then was that we added in the DK Eyewitness Science books recommended by Susan in the original edition of the WTM. These fleshed out some of the info & gave the kids a little more in-depth reading. I especially like the Force & Motion book in that series.

Especially if you're occupied with other more important matters this year, I think that you will be pleased at how easy Rainbow is to implement. :grouphug::grouphug:

Thanks Kathy. I really value and appreciate your input. Its good to hear your perspective on these middle school years in light of your experience. I especially like the way you described your overall approach in preparing your kids (at the time) for HS and beyond.

August 19, 2012

I bought the homeschool edition and it looks slightly different from the school version. Nothing drastic. User-friendly. Nice features. Well worth $80.

Dd15 is doing the last chapter as review before starting alg 2 at school next month. Not sure if I can delete her scores for younger dd to that chapter next spring/summer.

Hm, can you retake the tests? If so you could possibly re-answer all the Qs with [A] for example.

August 18, 2012

Based on what you mentioned I have a few recommendations. Since you said you are big readers take a look at using Literature Based approach. Charlotte Mason was a big proponent of this method using 'living books': http://simplycharlottemason.com/basics/what-is-the-charlotte-mason-method/

For science our kids have really enjoyed Apologia in 1st-6th grade. In 7th and 8th grade we will probably use Rainbow Science which has a real hands on approach with fun experiments.

Saxon math seems to be a hate it or love it kind of thing. It is very repetitive which can seem monotonous for many kids. If it is too dry and boring then you have many other options which some families greatly prefer. We really like CLE math and have also Math-U-See which worked better for our son than our two younger daughters. They started with MUS but weren't retaining as much and didn't respond as well to the 'mastery' approach it takes. Once we moved to CLE which is more spiral, though not as repetitive as Saxon, they began enjoying math again.

August 18, 2012

This is great information. My wife really likes Apologia and is therefore reluctant to switch to something new. However after showing her this post last night she also thinks it may be a good option for 7th and 8th grade. Though a bit more pricey I like that parts of the kits can be reused with our younger children.

Honestly I would prefer a program that is a bit more balanced in the presentation of creation with an explanation of evolution and discussion of the age of the earth. From what I've seen in reviews Rainbow Science handles this a bit better. I dont know how much either really goes into their philosphy on this. Apology is young earth creation. However I lean more toward old earth creation. Ideally I would prefer a fair presentation of the various views for our kids. But I know that is hard to find. My understanding is that Rainbow Science is basically silent on the age of the earth which for me is better than insisting on 'one' right view.

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