dereksurfs
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Posts posted by dereksurfs
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Hi Stephanie,
What browser are you using? I would start with trying another browser first like Chrome or Firefox. This will help to narrow the problem down. Its most likely some browser security settings you have in place which are blocking opening up the links. This could be partially due to your anti-virus running on Win 8 as well.
I have no problems with TabletClass on Win 7. I'll try Win 8 and let you know.
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One of the most difficult issues to figure out for dh and me is when to finish Algebra 1. We really don't see the need to complete Algebra before 8th grade. If we do Algebra in 7th & 8th, or maybe just 8th, our kids will be on track to complete Calculus BC in 12th grade. We don't understand the need or current practice of trying to rush kids into Algebra 1 in 7th grade, which is the norm in our school district/region. I think our kids would do fine in Algebra 1 in 7th grade, but maybe it would be better to stretch it out longer or wait until 8th when their brains are more mature for abstract learning.
I can understand that some kids may elect to take various courses after Calculus BC (Multivariable Calculus, etc.), but it doesn't seem like it would be necessary. Many universities won't even accept these kinds of course for engineering students.
Yes, these are some of the reasons I'm in no hurry to rush through Algebra. My son just happens to be ahead for his age. So I think its ok to spend more time here to really soak in the abstract reasoning and this whole different way of looking at numbers. There is no need for us to rush into geometry.
Now for our younger daughters I'm not so sure it will work out the same. They aren't quite as ahead as our son. So we'll see with them. I know for kids with whom math is not their favorite or strongest subject two years of Algebra may put them somewhat behind their grade level or certain academic goals. But as long as they have adequate time available I'd like to devote extra time covering Algebra. Many college professors indicate that this is one area incoming freshman are the weakest. And this impacts their science courses as well.
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I know Saxon is not that popular, but I have a 12 year old doing Saxon (after completing Saxon 1/2). He just needs the constant review to keep things fresh otherwise he forgets. I've tossed around the idea of doing a second year of Algebra with a different book. We've been doing the Alcumus problems from the art of problem solving without much difficulty (although he does need to think about it a bit usually) so it shows that he does continue to have some decent problem solving abilities. He's currently working in the Algebra 1 first level section. So, I guess I'm wondering if doing Algebra again would be worth it. He really is understanding what he is doing.
Beth
Beth, congrats. It sounds like your son is thriving with Saxon. And that's all that really matters. So who cares if its popular?! :thumbup1:
With regards to doing a second year of Algebra or not in this case I think it really depends on how strong you feel your ds is by the end of the year. The other question is if not Algebra then what to follow? There are many ways to go at this point. For example you could dovetail in the harder chapters of the first half of AoPS Introduction to Algebra which is considered rigorous Algebra 1. Then roll right into the second half of the book and complete Algebra 2 when he seems ready as Regentrude did with her kids. Or you could branch out and start Geometry either as a spine or a gentle introduction as you really solidify Algebra.
Now that folks are starting secondary math the question of sequence always arises. I'm still not sure if we will follow Algebra 1 with Geometry or continue with Algebra 2. I have heard some interesting reasons for doing one over the other. For me at least right now being strong in Algebra 1 is really more important than order afterwards. That's why I am not wanting to rush things at this stage but rather let his brain become fully immersed in Algebra. However I'm not saying everyone child should do this. For some moving on to whatever is next may be best.
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That makes sense.
I would be interested to hear which year of Dolciani Algebra you decide on. I got a 1988 Dolciani Pre-Algebra which was receommended by people on this forum (which seems fine based on my dh skimming through it). I would guess that the 1980's Algebra editions are also good...?
Ok, I just found an awesome resource I want to share with the group! The state of California has started an online library with 1000s of books and growing called Open Library. I just checked and they have many Dolciani Math books which have been digitized including the hard to find 1960s/1970s editions. This is great to compare and contrast the versions. Take a look here: http://openlibrary.o...arch?q=dolciani
Because of this resource it now takes the guessing out of what these books look inside like before buying. It also answers the questions regarding the differences in editions which for some of us isn't as big of an issue. In reviewing these I actually think I like the 1980s, 1990s version just fine. However now I can at least see what folks are talking about regarding their differences. :D
I also discovered that the 1970s Dolciani was my algebra book. ;)
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Thank you for the info. I found a good number of used 1999 Foerster Algebra 1 editions online.
Did you order a TE or a Solutions Manual? Those seem like the more difficult things to find.
Or do you think they are not necessary?
No, I just ordered the book for now. I want to see if there are solutions in the back first to every odd problem. That may be enough for us if we only use it as a reference or supplimental. However if we use Foerster as the spine I'll probably pick up the solutions manual possibly through the publisher as David Chandler mentions above.
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Glad to kick things off. I was thinking it was just about time anyway.
I can answer your first question about Foerster since I have researched it and recently purchased a copy which is on the way. Here is a good quote summerizing it from Math without Borders' website:
"You will need to separately purchase a copy of Foerster’s Algebra I: Expressions, Equations, and Applications.
ISBN10: 0131657089 / ISBN13: 978013165708
The lessons are based on the Prentice Hall Classics version, but there are only minor differences between this and earlier versions. Homeschool parents can order solution manuals for the current version from Pearson-Prentice Hall through their “Oasis†program." -- http://mathwithoutbo....com/?page_id=4
I was also considering using Math without Borders lectures to suppliment the Foerster's Algebra 1 book as they come highly recommended.
Anyway I picked up a 1999 copy with ISBN: 9780201324587 for ~ $4 +shipping.
Next I'll get Dociani. However folks are a little bit more religious about those really early editions (1960s) being the best. I'm not so sure I'll go that crazy with my search as she wrote math books up into the 80s before she died. Here's a thread I started on just that topic: http://forums.welltr...ebra-rationale/
The McDougal series seems to be what a number of schools are using. There are quite a few editions of these. Here is one review which seems so/so: http://www.amazon.co...ougal Algebra 1. From what I have seen in looking at these book samples they appear very long winded and busy. For my ds11 I think there are better options available.
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Hi All,
Its been almost a year since Halcyon started our very interesting and informative Pre-Algebra Fence Straddlers Thread. So for those of us who like to plan ahead or are right in the thick of things I thought it was time for us to consider Algebra 1.
In keeping with tradition and the spirit of the forum I would like to restate that there is no one best program for every family/child. Yet listening to various member's experiences, ideas and plans has proven very beneficial to me as well as others here I know.
I'll start out with my own plan for next school year or possibly earlier as Pre-A progresses. Since this is early on it is still somewhat open to change.
First and foremost I want my ds11 to really master Algebra as I think it is the foundation of all upper level math and much of science as well. As such I plan to have him spend extended time in it, most likely 7th and 8th grade. Right now he is taking TabletClass Pre-Algebra which is proving to be both challenging and good preparation for Algebra 1. So if things continue to go well the initial plan is:
First year spine: Tablet Class Algbera
First year supplimental: Zaccaro's Real World Algebra
Second year I'm not so sure. I'm torn between using Foerster, Dolciani or AoPS
While I don't think AoPS's discovery approach is best for ds11 since he likes clear explanations first, after a year or so of another program it may prove both fun and challenging.
With regards to Foerster and Dolciani I've heard great things about both styles of instruction though they vary quite a bit. And they are both very affordable used. So I'll most likely pick up copies to have as references at the vary least.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts as we begin preparing to teach Algebra 1 to a variety of young students.
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Okay, I have been looking at it and seems like we should get the Mindstorms kit, but what I wonder is if I bought the old Droid Developer could this be used with MIndstorms to construct the R2D2 looking robot she has in mind?
Well, it really depends what you/she have in mind when you say 'construct' the R2D2 robot. The original one you posted looks like you could 'construct it.' Programming it to do stuff is another question. So if that is what you're asking I'm not sure if you could swap out the old brain or 'brick' with the newer ones. There are other hardware/mechanical parts involved such as sensors designed to work with the brick. That's why I'm not sure you can swap newer tech with these older robot parts. It does sound like a fun almost frankenstein like experiment which a kid would love to try.
You could probably get a more definitive answer on a Lego Mindstorms forum since many on there would be more likely to attempt such experiments. Try here: https://community.le...TORMS/bd-p/1042
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That's cool that cat found the instructions. My ds11 took a local Mindstorms class put on by our city. He *So* wants a current generations robot kit - NXT 2.0 to program on his own. I tried talking him into some of these older models. But he immediately describes how much more the newer versions have to offer. In researching these little buggers a bit I have seen a lot of changes since they were first introduced. I wish the current one wasn't so darn expensive. It never seems to go on sale. *However* as I write this I just checked and for the first time Amazon is selling it at a *somewhat* reduced price - $239 vs. $279. Still that's a lot of mula I know!
Regarding the version you are considering it is pretty old tech. Take a look at the reviews here: LEGO Mindstorms: Star Wars Droid Developer Kit
Regarding the software its hard to say since this is a 1999 product. That's *really old* software designed for Windows 95/98. Not sure its going to run on the newer OS's. This partially depends on what you are running at home. I know some of our old games don't work in the newer environments. This will be a bit of a gamble I think which could go either way.
But if it works and your dd will have fun with it that's all that really matters. However do you think once done with that one she will want the newer version *also*? Since I already know the answer to that one for my ds I have him starting a savings plan toward it including some of his Christmas money. By the time its his BDay he should be able to save up enough from his allowance to contribute toward its purchase. :tongue_smilie:
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The answer to this question will vary per family and possibly per child as the writing styles as well as methods of instruction vary quite a bit. We weren't fond of Lials Pre-A after purchasing and reviewing it. This is mainly due to its very busy and distracting layout. *However* there are other families here who seem to really like it.
Used copies of these books are pretty affordable. IMO you will be the best judge of this for your dc once you pick up a copy or can view it somewhere online. I think there were online samples someone posted of these texts floating around. However I have seen used Dolciani books starting at $1. Lials the same - http://www.alibris.c...h?qwork=5298299.
I'll probably pick up a Dolciani copy even though we already have a Pre-A spine which we really like in TabletClass. Its good to have other perspectives of the same subject when your child hits a road block. We also have MUS Pre-A as well, but don't find it as strong in terms of breadth or depth as some of the other options.
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Thanks. More background: He has finished MM 6a, b and has LOF Pre-Algebra w/ Biology (we use Kahn when we can too). I also have Jacobs Algebra thinking we could transition into that but I am finding he needs a lot more review. Aops will not work for him, he just doesn't LOVE math and is not interested in working out a problem without steps. I had planned on ordering Kinetic Books preAlgebra (non-internet based version), but when I tried to do that after I left the states, I was told they will not sell it to homeschool families (nice!) and I can't use the internet based version (we live on a boat and do not have access except when in town). So, I have LoF pre-Algebra 1 and the MM 7 worksheets, but I need more (he really needs review). I thought Lials sounded good but now I don't know, and pretty much this is the last day I can order anything and have it shipped in time! Any other thoughts?
Catherine,
The added background really helps. Sorry to hear about KB. Yeah, they are not the most HS friendly and their customer support leaves something to be desired. The fact that you already have done LOF Pre-A along with Khan makes me think you may be ok without more beyond Lials. However this is only a guess as I don't really know your ds like you do. When my son hit linear equations he really needed extra supplimentals of some kind to help solidify the concepts. And we use TabletClass Pre-A which has very good explanations along with good breadth and depth for this level.
Depending of how he is doing I might just order the second LOF Pre-A with Economics. On the other hand if unsure I would consider one of the others with very good explanations along with adequate depth and scope like AoPS or Dolciani. That will be your call as a best educated guess knowing you may not have the internet to use to look up extra problems or alternative explanations. Jacobs is also known to have a pretty good pre-A portion. So you may be ok. I think its just a matter of piece of mind at this point having all your bases covered.
I think used Dolciani Pre-A is pretty affordable though possibly hard to find depending on the edition. Here is one for ~ $1: http://www.abebooks....&tn=pre algebra I am not sure if this is the edition most use, but for the price its hard to beat. Here are a few more: http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?qwork=5296350.
BTW, while AoPS is not for eveyone as a spine it is a good resource in terms of explanations of important concepts. It has great depth and breadth. Take a look at their samples to get an idea. I recommend printing this Linear Equations section as its so good: http://www.artofprob...lgebra/exc2.pdf. I am thinking about buying their Intro to Algebra book even if we don't use it as a spine for the quality of the questions along their explanations.
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Lial's Pre-Algebra is a love/hate kinda thing for many families, similar to Saxon. It was the first Pre-A we purchased and the one we like the least due to its immensely cluttered layout and smallish print spanning over 900 pages. It just seems too scatter brained to us. We were coming from programs just the opposite and really prefer clearer, cleaner instruction.
Since you live out of country I also strongly advise bringing at least one more program home in case it doesn't work out. Its good to have a second reference anyway even if your first choice works fine. Sometimes when your ds hits a bump you just need to take a step back and have him look at things from a little different perspective. There really are so many other great choices available. Just read the reviews in light of your dc and pick one (more):
AoPS
Horizons
BJU
Dolciani
MUS Pre-A/Algebra
LOF
etc...
I'm not sure if you have reliable internet. But if so there many good online resources as well such as Khan Academy, Derek Owens lessons, AoPS lessons, etc...
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If you think she is ready for college material, check out some of the OpenCourseWare online. So far I've been impressed with Stanford's CS106A, Programming Methodologies, class, which requires The Art and Science of Java by Eric Roberts. It's very challenging but it assumes no prior programming knowledge (it's a general ed class). It teaches Java, but beyond that it stresses good software engineering principles that will prepare you well for other classes and languages. The professor is engaging and explains the topic clearly.
I saw this free course along with many others from MIT and other top schools. This is so cool they are offering these world wide educational resources now for free! Things sure have changed since I was in school studying programming. ;)
Take a look at what this enterpising young man did in getting an MIT CS education for under $2000: http://www.scotthyou...06/24/tedx-mit/
Its really begs the question about the future of education in light of the power of the internet. It amazes me that what schools fought so hard to protect, namely their content, they are now offering for free online. This is a huge paradigm shift which obviously the big schools are now embracing in an effort to educate more people around the world. It almost seems too benevolent to be true.
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I'm teaching my son to program in Java currently. There are so many great free resources out there right now including full blown intro to CS courses from the Ivys. As a software engineer I don't really think a book by itself is quite enough. Though its great to have good reference books which many times go along with courses or other online training. I've got bookshelves of them. But things change so fast now most engineers use more online resources. And there are quite a few free programming books, manuals, APIs, etc... online.
CS like many of the sciences is best learned by doing, hence the lab portion (programming). Python and Java are really popular programming languages to start with, though Java is more powerful. In the beginning simply learning logic flow and patterns are a great place to start. Seeing how the pieces fit together is very very helpful. That's why programs like Scratch and Game Maker are taking off as educational tools. Game Maker's Apprentice is the first book I started my son with when he was 10. He finished the book and built all the games using the Game Maker tool.
Next we did this very practical tutorial series which I recommend your son trying. Its entitled Java for the Absolute Beginner:
After that take a look at this fantastic free educational tool called Greenfoot. This is a powerful tool for both teaching programming fundamentals and making some cool games. It's used by quite a few college and university CS departments in teaching programming:
http://www.greenfoot.org/overview
http://blogs.kent.ac.uk/mik/category/joy-of-code/page/2/
My son is really having fun with this stuff, so much so that he spends his free time programming. :D
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Thanks for all the responses. I'll have another look at CLE. Part of my problem is that I just dread switching programs mid-year and having to pay international shipping. I wish I had made this decision last June when I was ordering curriculum.
I will up her time for math as well. It's just so hard fitting everything in as it is, I don't really want to add to our school day, but I guess it has to be done.
If you have her try out a CLE sample and she likes it then you will have her attention. It is at that time that you can basically tell her that *if* you decide to switch she will have to work extra hard to catch up. And either way she will need to put in more time as math is a very important subject.
Sometimes you have to get back to the basics - the three Rs. Then let otherwise good things be placed on hold for a season until the fundamental areas are strengthened. We had to simplify and let a few go for a time to focus more on math ourselves. For me math is numero uno even when not a favorite subject. While many of the other subjects can be learned in latter years math is one which is hard to just pick up if a child is weak there. They typically have to go back before going ahead since much of math builds upon itself over years of study and hard work.
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Another recommendation for CLE. We switched from MUS and also own MM. MM just never really seemed to fit for any of our children as good as it sounded. MUS is about as straight forward as it gets if a child thrives with mastery as our son did. However our daughters didn't like it as much. So we switched them over to CLE and they seem to be doing much better with CLE's approach.
Whether you switch again or stay on course is really up to you. That's always a tough decision. I think it boils down to the child and the possible reasons for not liking or doing well in their current program. Do they simply not like math as a subject or does the material itself not really work for them? If you suspect the latter is true then it doesn't hurt to at least have her try CLE or another option such as R&S or MUS. Sometimes letting a child test the waters first helps them to gain a sense of ownership if/when you do switch. At that point they seem to become more committed even not their favorite subject.
IMO its better for them to be somewhat behind and enjoying math rather than hating their daily math tasks. You can also work harder to catch up by doubling up on lessons for a season or simply spending more time devoted to math until grade level skill is achieved. We had to do that with our middle daughter after switching to CLE and now she is just about caught up.
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I recommend just stopping or slowing down big time in the area she is having trouble. Then use supplimental materials to gain a new, fresh perspective. Algebra is one subject in which spending extra time is really important when and where needed. Khan Academy is a great place for this. My son is going through their linear equations Algebra section now to suppliment what he is learning in Pre-A with TabletClass.
We started with MUS Pre-Algebra then moved to TabletClass Pre-A because I wanted something a bit more challenging for our son. Once we hit a bump in linear equations I found these suppliments to big help and he enjoyed hearing things from another angle. Khan Academy also has a question generator related to the lecture subject matter. Our ds11 really enjoys these. They even provide hints if they get stumped.
Of course there are many other great algebra supplimentals out there. Maybe taking a different track entirely would be good for a time in something like Zaccaro's real world algebra or LOF.
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Ohh I found it hooray!!!!
Wanted to say that my son has been using Dolciani as his supplement to AoPS when we hit a tough part, and....I think he wants to make it his spine....Hrmph. Is it because it is easier, or because it is more clear for him? Does it matter ?
Hahaa, what an interesting Pre-Algebra journey you have both taken! I bet when you first considered what this might look like you had no idea it would go in these directions. But I think that is part of the fun in homeschooling when you can discover with your child what works best and then tailor it accordingly.
For us we started with MUS, then moved to TabletClass. And now that we have hit the challenging area of linear equations we have begun supplimenting with both Khan Academy and AoPS. In the beginning I had decided against AoPS because I didn't think my son was one who would like the 'discovery approach.' But in looking at the free samples of their Pre-Algebra book they just so happened to have a great section on linear equations! So we used these problems which are really quite good, and we did the online corresponding lectures. My son ended up really enjoying these extra challenging problems. Of course we are using it quite differently than one would as a spine. :tongue_smilie:
Just wait until we get to Algebra Halcyon! We'll have to start an Algebra fence straddlers thread. There are so many options for Algebra 1, even more so than Pre-A. :D
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I am somewhat concerned about some of the sexual content and ads in the more popular science magazines. While they may be fine for adults to filter out and/or ignore I'm just not as comfortable with that stuff for our younger kids. For example Scientific America had an article on 'Your Sexual Brain.' I know this varies by household. So I'm not saying it necessarily applies to other families. But we like to limit these things when possible, unless it's something we specifically plan to address. The thing I like about the Odyssey magazines is that they are ad free and that's a big plus for us. It would be nice if there were others which were ad free.
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Odyssey is for kids 9-14. That's quite a range and my 9 year old already enjoys it very much now, so we'll see how it goes at 14. I do find it interesting too though...at 40. I am no scientist, however. :tongue_smilie:
I'm :bigear: for more ideas, because we'll need them in a few years.
This one looks good. Thanks, I think we'll try it.
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Great! A few things for me to look into. I was wondering if the Saxon 1/2 or Abeka supplemental books would help. Not the texts, but the supplements but I cannot figure out which ones might be helpful.
To answer what we are using- I am using lessons I teach, Kahn academy practice problems, MathCounts practice problems and review sheets I make. I am just starting to look to incorporate AoPS as well.
Part of me would love a curriculum that I could just use but I find that we cover things well this way. We will be looking to Algebra soon but I want to make sure he is quickly able to work through anything I throw him from pre-algebra first.
Any other suggestions are very welcome as well!
Wow, it sounds like you have cobbled together quite a program. :D Obviously you're skilled enough to pull something like this off which I know my dw would not want to do. Those all seem like solid choices. Maybe cobbling is ok until you get to Algebra 1.
I've heard good things about BJU Pre-Algebra in terms of both breadth and depth as well.
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Thanks. Do any of the curricula you mention have tests or review sheet supplements that will provide a worksheet with a few problems on previously taught skills?
He is moving quickly through concepts but I find we need to review them just to make sure he stays sharp.
Does this make any sense?
Its not clear to me if you are asking for other primary program suggestions or supplimentals to review concepts already covered in your current program? I'm curious which math program you are currently using?
We use TabletClass Pre-A which I did not list above because its not 'Spiral' per se. However it does have end of the chapter tests and extra chapter worksheets. If chapter test scores are somewhat low we go back over areas missed. We also use the extra chapter worksheets provided. While certain chapters build upon previous ones I wouldn't necessarily consider it spiral like CLE for example. Once fractions are covered the student moves on to the next subject.
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We are doing pre-algebra by cobbling together several resources. What I need, however, are review pages that spiral and review previous concepts. Right now I am forced to put them together myself. I was wondering if anyone knows or a resource or resources that would provide this kind of review (or at least make it easier for me to put them together).
Thanks,
Hm,
Some Prealgebra programs which are more spiral based include:
Saxon
CLE
TT
The degree and method of spiral most likely varies with each program.
The other option is to use a topical supplement to your spine curriculum and bring it in after covering the topic. Since Pre-Algebra really is mostly a summary of primary math the amount of review needed can vary by topic. For example if your dc is having trouble with fractions or decimals use "Keys To", MM or another topical reference to review over those areas. But maybe you are already doing that in part?
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I'm doing Lials BCM now with dd12 who is in 7th grade. I didn't realize this was considered a Pre-alg text?
That would be ideal to work through that with both of them, but I don't know if it's considered enough to ease into Algebra?
What do you think?
This might depend on the on a number of factors including how you plan to do Algebra. For example will you spread it out for longer than one year? How difficult of an Algebra 1 program will you use. There is a pretty wide spectrum when it comes to scope and sequence along with rigor. AoPS is typically considered at the most difficult end with TT and MUS on the easier side of the spectrum. We plan on spending plenty of time on Algebra, most likely two years (7th & 8th grade).
Jacobs is considered a pretty gentle introduction to Algebra with significant Pre-Algebra review initially.
BCM would probably be good to suppliment with programs like HOE and others which introduce algebraic concepts such as multistep equations and polynomials. That's what the Pre-A programs add in there as well.
Computer savvy moms/dads....
in General Education Discussion Board
Posted
Hi Stephanie, you're in luck. I just bought my wife a new Windows 8 laptop and testing TabletClass for you. Sure enough it failed as you described in Internet Explorer. Then I tried it in Chrome and it worked fine. So it seems like a bug in IE on Windows 8.
In answer to your other question using a different browser just means you are not using an MS Internet Explorer browser which typically has more bugs. But the other browser still runs on the Windows 8 OS.
Hope this helps some,