lewelma
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Posts posted by lewelma
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4 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:
I think that’s similar to my thing of choice within parameters. However it was still top down. Your kids weren’t free to watch tv till 2am which is what a truly peer relationship would look like.
Yep, my ds said in the car today that we don't have a peer relationship, we have what he calls an "intellectual partnership."
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2 minutes ago, maize said:
So, if you never used incentives or consequences, did your children when they were young challenge you on things like bedtime? You said they had to be in bed by a certain time, they could read but only certain books and only with a red light. Your boys never did things like jump on the beds past bed time? Turn on the light when it was supposed to be off? You did have rules, did you have methods of enforcing those rules or were your children mostly compliant so no enforcement was necessary? What would you have done if every evening instead of reading in bed they were having pillow fights?
Haha. Beats me. My memory is so shaky, I don't remember what they did when they had pillow fights as I am sure they did! I know they didn't jump on the beds because they have been in bunk beds their entire life in a room that was 9 by 6! I'm sure I had rules and enforced them, so clearly my parenting has changed. 🙂
As for compliant, it was my younger's complete non-compliance and obstinacy that drove me to give up trying to externally regulate his actions and work long and hard to develop internal regulation and motivation. This has not been a small task. And it was my older's explosions and OCD that first led me to a new parenting approach. So Nope. I definitely did NOT have compliant children.
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3 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:
Pt being, we have to parent the child. Sometimes what it takes is not the type of parenting we would prefer, but what it takes to help them be able to function in a healthy way.
I completely agree with this. I very much appreciate people helping me sort through my thoughts on this as I have never tried to pinpoint what my parenting style is or the elements it contains. I think I've convinced myself to stay the course and try to fix the issue that is bothering me with the tools I already use with which am both familiar and effective.
What made me start this thread was the surety with which Gil spoke. He parenting style came through loud and clear, and he is clearly using it effectively with his boys. I think he parents the children he has, and I think that his techniques, although they sound amazing to me, will not work with my younger boy.
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It is just the 2020 planning thread. I just didn't want to discuss what Gil had to say on the general board, because sometimes my goals can make others feel bad. So I wanted to discuss his plans here.
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5 minutes ago, daijobu said:
(Which leads me to wonder what exactly is lewlma texting her students that she fears will be discovered by the parents?)
Haha. Nothing sinister. Sometimes kids try to get out of coming. And instead of saying OK, I tell them that they should come. If I'm going to charge regardless of if they come, then seems to me that I should challenge them on their excuses which have been from 'I was called up at work' to 'I want to go to the beach' to 'I have to meet my friends after school to work on a project that I left to the last minute'. Parents can read texts, so I make sure that if they do they don't think I'm just letting their kids off the hook when the parents are paying.
I so wish I could work with homeschoolers, but most of them here are unschoolers or just don't have enough money to pay for a private tutor.
Still, I consider myself more of a "concierge tutor." I want parents to use my price as a mental shortcut to gauge my quality. And I think I'm really really good at what I do.I like this! I have a waiting list to 2021 so could definitely up my rate! The main problem is that I am hitting the GST boundary, so I will have to charge a surcharge of 15% next year. I haven't told the parents yet!
And the reason that I charge for non-contact time is that I develop programs for students (so I'm more of a private teacher than a tutor) and sometimes this takes way more time depending on the student. I designed a program to get a kid who could not subtract 8-2 through 12th grade statistics. I definitely charged this parent more than the kid who is just average and the average program the school offers fits very well.
Fascinating to see how everyone does it. 🙂
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Calming tea, I would quote you, but it is all so good. I completely agree that parental relationship changes over time. Perhaps I just give the reigns to my kids earlier than other parents. And the other thing I don't do and never have is any sort of incentives, rewards, removal of privileges, punishment, etc. Never. I also don't give tests or grades, so no incentives there either.
So when I started this thread I was thinking that maybe I needed to do incentives or removal of privileges for this one issue. Or even saying 'I'm the parent, and what I say goes.' But now I'm thinking that I have not talked to him enough for me to understand his point of view and for him to understand mine, and then to come to an agreement that we are both happy with.
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3 hours ago, Little Green Leaves said:
what do you do when, say, they don't want to go to bed, or do their chores? or when they get older and they break curfew / don't do their work / etc?
So when my boys were younger they had to be in bed by 8pm, but they could stay up as long as they wanted as long as 1) were laying down in their bed, 2) were reading a classic, and 3) had a head-lamp on red with no-overhead light. Under these conditions, kids typically don't last long! 🙂 But the environment empowered them to make their own choices that were not dictated to by me.
As for teens, I asked my boy why he goes to bed at a reasonable hour when he has no bedtime. He said that to work effectively he needs to be well rested, and that he knows that if he wants to work with me he needs to start at 8:30 because I tutor in the afternoon. So that if he goes to bed late and sleeps in, he will have to work independently in the afternoon or at night. So to me that sounds like the standard parenting tool of natural consequences. But then I asked him, 'so why do you actually want to get work done if I don't require it?' And together we kicked it around, and decided that I have taught him to value his education and that he doesn't want to short change himself. So because he internally owns the value, I can trust him to make his own choices to implement it without reward, punishment, nagging, or cajoling.
So by putting most of my effort into instilling this value over the years, I do not need to have a top-down parent-directed homeschool. And the more I think about it, the more I think this is true for most of my parenting relationship with my kids. He shares my values, but may not share my implementation method. But I respect his point of view, so work with him in 'intellectual partnership' to accomplish his and my goals.
And this whole conversation has helped me to realize that he does not share my values in the issue that I'm struggling with. So that is something for me to think about.
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I appreciate the responses! Thanks guys for taking the time to write out what is pretty difficult to explain.
So in my standard approach to parenting, I asked my ds what he thought about how our relationship works. 🙂 He said the number one thing that I do differently than every other parent he knows is that I value his point of view. Actually value it and won't put my point of view above his. I found this interesting because I have never really realized that was a hallmark of how I parent. But he is right.
He also said that 'peer-relationship' has a certain connotation, like we hang out together or do stuff that he does with his same-age peers. We don't. He said that a better description would be "intellectual partner." That we work together to solve problems, that we are not intellectual equals because clearly I have more knowledge and experience, but that not all decisions should be based only on those things. Which is why valuing his point of view is critical for this partnership. Once again, this is interesting to me to see it from his point of view, because he is right.
And this conversation actually showed me how I parent - it was like I was watching with new eyes. By involving him in *evaluating* our relationship and interactions, I also influenced him to continue to work with me as a partner with give and take on both sides. I led from behind.
More in a sec...
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16 minutes ago, Little Green Leaves said:
My kids are small and not super conscientious, so if I wasn't top-down they wouldn't brush their teeth, make their beds, or practice their handwriting. Sometimes I get tired of being in charge and I look for a way to get them on board with being more self-led. Honestly, this generally backfires. I end up feeling like it's actually less intrusive to just be the Parent In Charge. I am really jealous of people who can create this more child-led approach though.
Those of you who talk about being more peer-to-peer with your kids, what do you do when, say, they don't want to go to bed, or do their chores? or when they get older and they break curfew / don't do their work / etc? I think I grew up with a pretty top-down model so I'm curious about the nitty gritty of how this works. I know a few people have said you just explain to your kids why something is important, but what if they fundamentally disagree?
I was much more Parent in Charge when my kids were little, but I also implemented Greene's approach for explosive children starting when they were about 6 years old. This book definitely discouraged top-down decision making by the parent (Greene is a psychologist who works with explosive kids no matter the reason -- odd, add, ocd, etc). So with my older boy when he was younger, we worked *with* him to come up with solutions that would avoid explosions. Once my younger came along, I just continued the same approach even though he was not explosive, because he was very stubborn and if I was dictatorial we would just get into a power struggle that never ended well.
I have to run out the door, but I'm happy to try to explain the nitty gritty of how I do it when I get back. Better, however, if you just flew to NZ and we had a chat over a cuppa. 🙂
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8 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:
I have never parented my children, nor attempted to parent my children, in some semblence of a "peer relationship." I don't see them as my peers and I don't want them to see me as their peer. I am their parent. Parenting as "parent" does not equal forceful control. Parenting means communicating with respect, guiding, but it also means instilling virtues, enforcing boundaries, etc. There is a difference between authoritarian and authoratitive. I honestly don't get the distinction "top-down parenting." To me parenting is naturally top down. It is not a relationship that naturally exists on a equal level. But, equally, I don't agree with the idea that parents "parenting as parents" are unable to nurture children toward intrinsic motivation. Again, I think it is bc parenting is not defined as "controlling."
I have known for many years that you and I definitely parent differently, and I respect your approach although I cannot implement it with my own kids. Clearly, I am not a peer, clearly I am a parent, but also clearly we do thing differently. I don't think that English has official names for the nuanced approaches either of us use. So I am sorry if I have muddied the waters with trying to put names on parenting styles. The Lao Tsu quote is my best description of what I do. "A leader is best when people barely know he exists. When his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: we did it ourselves." I don't subscribe to the 'best' part as I think there are many effective approaches, but that summarizes how I parent - call it whatever you want.
So how do you develop internal motivation in a child who has none? Or internal motivation for a task that they don't want to do but that you want them to do? I would like to have more tools in my tool box. 🙂
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Thanks so much to each of you for writing all that out! I'm not quite sure what I am looking for, perhaps just to explore how each of us does things differently so that I can increase the tools in my toolbox.
I am NOT Parent-In-Charge. Nope, can't do it and don't believe in it. However, I am in charge, with small caps. I work through subtle influence to create internal desire and motivation to do what needs to be done. I don't think that my younger boy would have ever slogged through hours upon hours upon hours to remediate his dysgraphia effectively if had not *wanted* to do it, and he wanted to do it because over the years I have planted ideas in his mind that have grown. I do NOT convince or argue or cajole . I do not lead from top down. I lead through influence as Lao Tsu described :
"A leader is best when people barely know he exists. When his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: we did it ourselves."
So what I find so interesting about Gil's approach and each of yours is the dynamic that your kids are *expected* to do what they are asked, but that you don't implement the 'obedience' or reward/punishment cycle. Or at least you don't appear to. My kids do NOT respond to reward/punishment, like they don't respond to it AT ALL. It builds resistance and resentment, and even at times retaliation. My older was an explosive child when he was young, and I was lucky to have found and read the best parenting book I have ever seen: "The Explosive Child" by Greene. His approach gave me insight, and I ran with it and changed it to make it my own. He works *with* kids to solve problems-- to come up with solutions that are acceptable to BOTH the parent and the child. This book started me down the path of working *with* my kids, rather than directing from on high. And as I described above, I have changed his approach to create internal drive and motivation in both my boys to do even what they don't like doing.
So when my younger boy says 'no,' I don't convince, but I do remind him of his goals and ask him what his plan is. I'm not manipulative; I am honestly asking how he plans to deal with what I perceive as a problem. But if he doesn't perceive of it as a problem, I work over many months to plant little seeds of ideas. This is how I changed my younger son from eating too many sweets, to having an internal desire to eat more healthily. I believe these month-long efforts of mine create long-term solutions because he owns them.
So I guess I'm wondering about how you guys create internal motivation with top down parenting. And I'm curious when you use different approaches with the same kid. I have run into a couple of situations with my younger (one in particular) that have been much harder to manage with my approach. So I'm kicking around a more top down approach, but I am hesitant to implement it because it goes against our long-standing and very-effective peer dynamic.
Ruth in NZ
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On 12/11/2019 at 8:44 AM, birchbark said:
When you outsource, there is much less for you, the mom, to worry about.
Well, I am going to have to disagree about outsourcing. I have found that outsourcing has led to much more stress and busyness in our homeschool, and has been the opposite of minimalism. Outsourcing means assessment, and assessment means being *prepared* on a certain day to be *judged* on your *performance.* Those three words -- prepared, judged, and performance -- are key. I have always done a few outside courses to help motivate my kids to study for test, but in general when you are being judged on your performance, you are no longer learning for the sake of learning. You are typically not also in LOVE with your life and your studies. You feel judged, and feel pressure to perform for the person judging you.
Now you would think that without tests and required output to drive a kid forward that not much would really be learned. But I have found the opposite. Having relaxed homemade courses without assessments and grades has meant that my kids could learn what they wanted to learn, at their own speed, to the depth that interested them, and then move on to the next thing. I can give them As for excellent learning without them having to *prepare* for a test. Preparation takes time and often results in lower-level learning on the blooms taxonomy chart. You have to memorize rather than working on interpretation, evaluation, and synthesis. Homemade classes for us have been *way* less stressful than outsources classes and have resulted in equally effective learning. Very definitely minimalism for us.
maybe you just need to focus on your relationship (which is a lot bigger deal in high school).
I did want to acknowledge this. Clearly, if this is your situation, it negates what I said above. 🙂
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Gil said it was ok for me to re-post his post. 🙂 I don't actually want to discuss his take on math, but am much more interested in discussing the parent-child dynamic that we as homeschoolers cultivate in our homeschool.
Gil's post was fascinating to me because he is much more Parent-In-Charge with all caps than I am, but yet his approach is different in a nuanced way from some parents here who have talked about obedience and a reward/punishment dynamic. I am a homeschooler who acts more as a peer, a knowledgeable peer who keeps track of the details, but still a peer who works *with* my ds to figure out content that neither of us know. This has been a very effective approach for me to develop 1) love of learning, 2) personal relationships, and 3) willingness to struggle. But yet, there are times when my younger boy is just like 'no,' and I see that this could be an opportunity to implement Gil's approach.
What I would like to discuss is how to be parent-directed and have strict requirements, while NOT getting into obedience and a reward/punishment dynamic.
Here is Gil's post on math that got me thinking about how he and I parent differently. Yes, it is about math, but it is also clearly about the parent-child dynamic in homeschooling.
QuoteDon't teach your kids from a place of fear and don't make yourself and your kids a slave to a tradition that isn't in-line with your reality.
Your gut is to reprioritize the school day for a (limited amount of ) time for this student, and I would explore options to follow your gut.I would first speak with his other parent and make sure that WE, the parents, are okay with it. If both parents are in accord, then I would sit with him and work out a WRITTEN agreement, that he can have 30, 45, 60 up to 90 days off from math; that instead of doing math, he will redouble his efforts on the guitar and take full advantage of the opportunity he has for growth in this field while he has an excellent teacher. Make it clear that this respite is our gift to him, to enable him to progess on guitar and maybe even other 'worthy endeavors' as much as possible for a short period of time.
If he doesn't apply himself to guitar or other "worthy endeavours" sufficiently, then he is to resume a daily math lesson immediately. This is not a break from school lessons, this is a special session of school with different priorities.
When he returns to math, ditch Saxon. I don't think that using Saxon incorrectly, is worth the time and energy. (Note: We used Saxons upper grades books as a part of our program and I would do it again, but we used it as prescribed: every problem from every lesson, worked in order. I have "particular" math tastes. I think that Saxon is a great program, but it's a specific, and highly particular program. If you're not going to do "the program" then I'm not sure that it's worth doing.
Rather than continuing on misusing Saxon, get a copy of virtually any text titled Basic College Mathematics and when he's done, go straight into an algebra text. You can also get virtually any text titled Basic College Mathematics: Early Integers and it will give him more exposure to and practice with integers. Most BCM books that I've seen have 12 or fewer chapters. They cover all the essential topics from a 5th-8th scope and sequence with minimal fuss and tend to introduce integers in the last chapter. An Early Integers text will introduce Integers in the first 2 or 3 chapters, and keep using them throughout.
Pedagogically, you can take a break from math at this stage in the game and be no worse for the wear within 6 months of resuming math. My only hesitation in taking an extended break from math would be IF he is the sort who would not honor/cooperate with the return to math, or if he has some sort of severe math-disability or learning difference that would make an extended break from math cripple him.
In those cases, I might do different, but I have very strong feelings about math, math education, and children's ability to learn. I've tutored 100+ kids and I feel confident that if this is a NT kid, with average, or even slightly below average math-aptitude, that he'll be fine to pass up some months of math practice in exchange for some other worth-while endeavors.
Yes, he'll miss out on some of the repetitious, spread of practice, but it won't cripple him. Kids take summer break, get ill, miss chunks of school due to deaths in the family, etc and still manage to learn and understand enough math to do well in school.
He can still become an engineer, doctor, or lawyer if he decides that's what he wants to do, and if he doesn't become an engineer, doctor, lawyer or business whiz, it won't be because he didn't finish every lesson in his 7th grade math text, I assure you that much.
He is old enough that he may be able to be trusted to participate in such a conversation and understand the ramifications of his decision, but while he has access to an excellent teacher, I would want him practicing as much as possible, so that he can progress as much as possible while this teacher is available. Why not take advantage of one of the benefits of homeschooling to give your child a better education?I will admit right now, that my kids are not naturally self-motivated. They do NOT come up with loads of educational, super beneficial learning projects on their own (at least not many that they're able to see through to the end independently). My youngests idea of a well rounded education includes copious amounts of Nintendo and drawing. They do best with externally provided structure and it's easier on everyone if I just take the reigns and be in charge. I'm very comfortable being The Adult in my relationship with my kids, though I've wavered in the past and I understand that the nagging uncertainty can be a real !@#$%.
I would work with my spouse and child to take better advantage of the special opportunity that having this excellent guitar teacher presented. I wouldn't go looking for a gimmicky "fun math", I wouldn't butcher Saxon, I would present him the opportunity to prioritize something special for a maximum of 3 months. It'll feel harder to take that time off when he's in highschool and you have to keep transcripts and whatnot. I think that for NT kids, the middle grades are ideal for "gap years" from disliked or uninspired subjects.
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Gil, what I found so interesting about your course studies is that there were only 4 courses but they were all very grand in vision and holistic/non-silo-ed.
I particularly like how you have certain courses be specifically child-led, forcing your kids to actually be self-directed, but then you also create parent-led courses that are specifically designed for your kids. That you are In Charge, and they Know it. But you also say "we will be working on..." and this phrase is so full of camaraderie and so we-are-in-this-together, but yet at the same time you have very clear standards and requirements. I think that we teach and facilitate in much the same way, but you are just much much better at explaining your approach and much clearer in your goals.
My younger has always been pretty bad about being self-directed, and you have inspired me to create an Autodidactic Studies course for my ds during our school holidays. He told me just yesterday that he thinks he will be bored over the 6-week holiday and would like to continue learning for an hour or 2 a day. I wonder if I might not convince him to do an hour *with* me, but then to rise to the occasion and be an autodidact for a second hour. I think that he would love that label and might work for it. For this boy it is all about 'selling' an idea so that he will own it.
Can I also say that I am *super* impressed that you are doing so well with your *second* foreign language when you personally don't speak either. Big thumbs up for that one.
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Gil's post from General Board
Quotere: how are your plans for next year going? Our plans are pretty simple, so they should be done sooner, rather than later. Nothing terribly exotic. The Boys will be in "7th grade" and have 4 courses:
Autodidactic Studies (Home made | Required, based solely on The Boys interests/whims)
I don't care what it is that they work on, but they must work on something and will be checked up on/monitored.
Communication and Composition (Home made | Parent-directed, all-inclusive language arts, speaking, reading, writing, etc)
This is the space where we work on oral reading and silent reading, reading comprehension, writing passages, essays, reports, stories and what have you, discussing books, vocabulary building, grammar patterns, word play, etc. I also count a few other activities under this umbrella, such as public speaking. We use the books that we have at home or get via the library, more of a method than any particular publisher.
Information Technology (Home made | Parent-directed, based on a combo of what I think they should learn and The Boys interests), we're going to be working on programming, hacking/cybersecurity and hardware. I'll also be helping with a couple of individual projects. (*mumble, mumble*).
Intensive Japanese (Store bought | Parent-supervised, child-led)
They're going to shift their literacy focus towards tackling Kanji this year. Outside of a text, they'll continue to read any childrens books we can get and keep up the media immersion outside of systematic study/practice. I told them they're required to have a "program" and they're still researching options. So this is our one unknown.We'll be keeping the same routine of work 2.5 to 4hrs a day, Monday to Saturday and 1 to 2 hours on Sunday.
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I'm not sure if this is the thread you were looking for, but your question made me remember vaguely that I might have started a thread on this years ago. So I went looking through my thread of threads, and found it! So many good posts from so many old timers. Hope this helps.
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1 hour ago, Momto6inIN said:
I am excited about this plan, but the stack of books to go through and organize does look a little overwhelming right now 🤤😀
Well, congrats! Sometimes the hardest part is just starting. 🙂
I would really suggest that you spend time observing nature during each of your units. Weather/clouds, ants, road cuts, rivers, rocky intertidal, kites, human body, waves, erosion, etc. This stuff is free and often leads to awesome bunny trails.
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14 hours ago, Gil said:
Don't teach your kids from a place of fear and don't make yourself and your kids a slave to a tradition that isn't in-line with your reality.
Your gut is to reprioritize the school day for a (limited amount of ) time for this student, and I would explore options to follow your gut.Gil! Where have you been?!?!? Your entire post is a fascinating look into the mind of an expert teacher and parent. Thanks so much for taking the time to write all that out. Absolutely fascinating.
Ruth in NZ
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5 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:
Interest-led, not child-led,
Yes! Brilliant distinction.
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On 12/10/2019 at 3:48 PM, Momto6inIN said:
My kids want to read about science and do activities and demonstrations,
So how is the goal setting going? Have you come up with an approach you want to take?
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Love these threads, Gil. School is over next week, so I've already gotten into planning mode for my younger for the 2020 academic year. Will have some goals to post in a few days!
ETA: just read your list on the other planning thread. You are an inspiration when it comes to working with gifted kids. Can you copy that post over here so we can discuss it? Or I can.
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58 minutes ago, Ellie said:
But see, you're thinking he's going to want to be interested in the kinds of things *you* want him to be interested in. Requiring him to produce output is in no way child-led. Requiring him to do *curriculum* is in no way child-led. Your friends who are talking about how their children love learning are not requiring them to do schoolwork. They are giving their children enough free time to figure out on their own what they love to do, and then they have the time to do it.
IOW, it isn't a curriculum issue. It isn't a mother-child dynamic. It's that you aren't understanding what "child-led" means.
Beautifully said, Ellie.
There is another piece of the puzzle that you may need to consider. You as the parent can subtly influence what you child *wants* to do. Do you think that my ds had some great desire to learn to write when he is dysgraphic and every. single. time. he tried to write *anything* it was a struggle? Like, "oh, yea! I can't wait to struggle at something I know everyone else finds easy." This is a boy who at 16 still has to remember to start an h at the top of the line so it won't look like an n. But what I can do is slowly, every so slowly, convince him that he *does* want to do this. That he believes it is a worthy goal, that he believes that he can succeed with effort, that he believes that I know it is incredibly hard and respect his effort.
Effective child-led learning is not a free-for-all, or at least it hasn't been in my house. I have a big picture plan to cover a breadth of subjects. Then I watch. What does my child naturally do that I can augment carefully and slowly to meet my educational goals? The trick is to actually *see* what a child is doing as education, and then to build on it, to encourage it, to help guide them down a path that will give them opportunities in the future.
Ruth in NZ
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30 minutes ago, square_25 said:
I'm honestly no longer sure "unschooler" is a useful category. With respect to the people I've met, that includes both people who aren't putting in nearly enough effort and people who let their kids guide their learning as much as they can. I think compared to lots of people on this board, I'm an unschooler: we have very few core subjects that are required, even within those core subjects, my daughter has LOTS of choice about what to learn (to my surprise, our math this fall has all been about learning the standard algorithms, which wasn't really what I was expecting), I don't assign her any specific literature, etc. But I don't think I belong in the same group as people who basically let their kids do whatever they want all day and don't provide learning opportunities/discussion/any kind of structure...
Agreed. However, it is a huge category of the current group of homeschoolers here in NZ, as in probably 50%. (We just don't have the co-op/hybrid school/online school thing going on here). So I have talked to a lot of the current crop, and they would definitely define unschooler as 'natural learners' rather than 'child-led learning'. But in the past, which I ran our local group, both categories of unschooler existed.
s/o Gil's post -- I'd like to discuss the parent-child dynamic in homeschooling
in General Education Discussion Board
Posted
Beautifully said, 8.