mama27
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Posts posted by mama27
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I do not think this example fits the facts as presented in this thread.
But let me ask a question that comes to my mind. Or two.
Suppose a baby or child never shows an interest in taking a bath or wearing clean clothes? Is it okay--and assume this is a family that is in a house with jobs and so on--not on the streets homeless-- to say, "well, I am waiting until my child asks me to give him/her a bath, then I'll do it?" Would you say, great, that is the radical "unbathing" philosophy of parenting?
Suppose a family does not believe in presenting nutritious food unless a child demands it and clearly shows an interest? If the child is only showing an interest in eating candy and drinking soda pop, is that perfectly fine? (I am assuming that a child fed nothing at all would cry and thus "show interest" in food. Thus I am giving an example of non-nutritious food, but to better equate to the "no teaching" unless it is requested, maybe "no feeding" would be more parallel.)
Most people posting here seem to consider providing nutritious food to be basic, but some people seem to be not so sure that education is important.
I consider not providing food as well as not providing education to be neglect because many children do not even know what to want or ask for unless it is first presented, and many may not act in their own interests in terms of healthy eating or education, but rather need adult guidance in that.
Under certain circumstances, illness, war, etc., where only food or education could be provided, but not both, I would certainly put good food first, since it is a more absolute health and survival need. But education is also important, and IMO not to provide it in the circumstances as described in this thread is neglect.
Our state has standardized testing required, so a radical unschool family would need their children to at least meet those requirements for minimum levels of reading and math skills. To me that is a reasonable way to deal with the situation, though obviously not what OP's state has in place. Frankly, and thankfully, all the unschoolers I have met have done far more than the minimum, though not necessarily in typical time frames or using typical methods. To me, I agree with the OP's characterization of what the family described is (not) doing in terms of education to be neglectful "not educating," not "unschool."
I have read of people like that who don't believe in forcing their kids to do anything. I do not agree with that at all but there has to be a line drawn between parental freedom and neglect to the point of involving any authorities. where should that line be drawn? and who decides where to draw it?
ETA: it concerns me that the OP is working for the system because I feel her views of where these kids "should" be will be compared to what she does for a living and probably agrees with. I think speaking with BOTH parents about her concerns is enough, if nothing changes from that, just let it go. Going any further than that will cause unneeded pain for this family. If the only wrong thing the parents are doing is not educating their kids in a manner that the OP agrees with, that really isn't her business.
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Is there a difference in the books and the pdf sequence you can download on the Core Knowledge web site?
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Have you looked into Bill Nye the Science Guy. Or look for videos on youtube? Reading books about different topics from the library and look for dvds there.
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This is a straw man. Where are all the people who are saying that educational neglect does not exist? And the op has clearly stated that she sees calling cps as an option if the family does not make positive changes.
Yep. She has said that.
Also, educational neglect does exist, I've seen it, read about it, etc. I never said it didn't but I also know a little about the foster care system and I do know that sometimes all it takes is one phone call from a person and one case worker or guardian who disagrees with homeschooling to get kids pulled from their homes, taken from their parents, separated from their siblings, losing their friends and all that is familiar and comfortable, because someone disagrees with how they are (or are NOT) being educated.
Is this particular family neglecting their kids educationaly? Possibly. The OP said the kids were eager to learn with her. My kids would be too because they like to please people they aren't familiar with. You've heard of kids who behave great with a sitter but the second the parents arrive they behave horrible? Mine are like that. Maybe these kids are.
The point is without KNOWING there is true neglect happening, not even a suspicion of abuse, but just a possibility of educational neglect, or maybe just a difference in opinion on how a child should be educated, calling in CPS can damage these kids for their whole lives AND it could set an presidence on changing the homeschooling laws for all the peoplein that state. Once you take away someone's freedom to raise their own children how they see fit, you put ALL homeschoolers freedoms at risk. Obviously, I am NOT speaking of when a child is actually abusedor neglected.
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This is a very good question. The unschooling families that I know personally teach the basics like reading and math as a way for the kids to learn what they really want to know. So if a child is interested in space flight, they would need to learn how to do math and to read in order to learn about space flight. The unschooling families that I am familiar with want their children to love to learn, so they do the normal stuff in elementary so that in middle and high school, the kids can learn whatever they want.
If a family is unschooling and not teaching their kids how to read, write or how to do (basic) math, then that is not unschooling (IMO), that is not schooling at all.
But that's just it, if the child has no desire to learn these things, then some unschooling famiilies do NOT teach them until the child DOES show interest because believe it or not, that is actually what they believe unschooling IS. You don't have to agree with it but calling CPS sure will not help those kids!
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My opinion is that unschooling is a family culture as much as or more than it is an educational environment. As such, I believe that there is a difference between choosing to embrace an unschooling approach to life and simply being too busy or uninterested to see to your child's education. I believe that most unschoolers, even if they are not directing their child's education, are supporting their child's education by assisting their child in the child's pursuits and endeavors and being a resource. I believe that successful unschoolers care whether their children become educated and that that care pervades the family culture and expectations in perhaps intangible ways. I think the environment (physically, certainly, but mental and family cultural) of a successful unschooling family is different than that of of a family whose parents are simply too busy or uninterested to be bothered with their children's education.
My opinion is also that unschoolers can be (not are, but can be) educationally neglectful. If children are into their teen years or are young adults and are lacking basic academic skills, then their parents have been neglectful. Really, there is no excuse (aside from severe LDs or developmental delays) for a 13 year old to not know how to read and write numbers above 100, how to identify the basic arithmetic symbols, what the letter sounds are, etc. It is neglectful to be just fine with your teenager being ignorant of basic academic skills. I can't even imagine how that happens, honestly, because it seems to me that someone would have to intentionally attempt to keep that knowledge from a reasonably typically developing child for a teenager to be ignorant of it.
We don't actually know if the 13 yo does have LDs or not ad honestly, the more of the OP posts I read the more I feel as if she doesn't approve of the way the kids are being raised and even though I may agree with her that it's not the way "I" raise my kids, calling CPS even as a "last" resort because the mom won't do what the OP thinks she should is far beyond what needs to be done. The OP has already said it's her JOB to asses kids in the ps system so it seems to me, she has a ps mentality. Which is fine, she's allowed. But obviously not all homeschoolers share that mentality.
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So, very tentatively, I am jumping in to ask a question that has been occurring to me as I've kept up with the thread over the last few days. Several posters have stated that it would be fine if she were unschooling, but since the mother has stated that she *means* to teach them but just never gets to it, she is *not* unschooling. My question stems from that thought. Is there a difference between an *intentional* unschooler and an "accidental" unschooler? How would the children's lives look any different if the mom declared herself an unschooler? Is unschooling educational neglect? What is the difference?
I am asking in seriousness--I have no agenda regarding unschooling. It just seems that some posters feel that the label makes a difference, and my understanding of unschooling (which admittedly may be uninformed) is that the actual outworking of unschooling may look very much like what is happening here.
I don't think there is a difference. Unschooling, IMO, is basically allowing your child to learn things on their own, as they choose to. I know of at least 3 families who would never identify themselves as unschoolers but they ARE.Their kids want to take an art class, they take an art class. They want to play football, they play football. They want to raise pigs, they raise pigs. And I don't mean throwing a football around in a yard, or raising a pig on a video game. They play on teams. They show the pigs. They eat them. They write plays and perform them in church or at scouts or wherever. They spend hours building the solar system because they want to. They ride horses in shows, they fix cars, etc.
Can/will/did these kids take algebra at grade 9? No. Neither did I and I went to PS!
Maybe these kids that the OP knows are knowledgable in things like alternative meds, cooking meals from scratch, making their own clothes, fixing electrical appliances. Maybe they've learned those things by doing them and not by reading them. Who knows?
The above examples are from families that I actually KNOW, not just ones I've read about or pulled out of my head.
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Not ideal, I admit, but also not abusive. The dad is there for breakfast and dinner, she said. Sounds like he doesn't have long work days.
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I have 7 kids, 2 have graduated. So that leaves me with 5 still schooling at home.
My 15 yo dd does her stuff independently. Her schedule:
Life of Fred
Bible
Devotional
English Lessons through Lit
written narration
reading
animal journal
marine animals zoology
spanish
drawing
history
on Fridays (our light day) she does:
geography
art
nutrition
reading
Freewrite Fridays
My youngest 4 do the same as my 15 yo on Fridays except I am involved in doing all of it with them because they can't work without direct supervision.
The other days their schedules are:
(all together)
Devotional
History
English lessons through Lit (all are in the same level, I adjust as needed for my youngest 2)
Song School Spanish
Science
Their independent work consists of math, reading or phonics, written narration for the older 2, reading to me for the younger 2.
What I do is combine as much as possible! When teaching about proper nouns, for example, my 12 and 10 yos will underline them in the ELTL copywork, then I do it orally for my 9 and 8 yos, while the other 2 check their answers. With science, we use Sciencein the beginning (lOVE this!) and we all do the experiments, the 12 and 10 yos draw and write more detailed than the 9 and 8 yos. We do the stuff together first, then I have them do their other stuff. But I have to stay close because they won't stay on task if idon't. I throw in a load of laundry, go back to the school room, warn tjhem to be quiet and keep working, go walk the dogs, go back to the school room, sweep the floor of the room they are in, check a math page, sweep the kitchen floor, check a phonics page, throw laundry in dryer, start another load, start my 9 yo on TT math on the computer, check more math, clean the half bathroom, check written narration, start lunch, etc. You get the picture.
Basically I go back and forth all day and do what needs to be done. But I do not have them do hours of school work. My 15 yo does an hour of math but she is doing algebra. If she doesn't daydream (which she DOES often!) all her work would take no more than 4 hours. I see no reason for her to do more than that.
My 12 yo, also 7th grade, and the rest do school all day because it's impossible for us to just sit and get it all done at once but if they did, it still wouldn't take more than 3 hours. But they don't work that way, they needlots of breaks so we do stuff together, then they play outside for awhile.
Btw, we adopted our youngest 4 so I've BTDT also! Do what works for YOUR family, even if it's not an hour per grade or whatever.
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So my first question is regarding the rule of thumb to plan for 1 hr. per grade level. Do we stop using that guideline in grade 6, 7, or 8?
I am cutting back ruthlessly on outside commitments. We dropped co-op, baseball, AWANA, Japanese tutor, playgroup for my toddler, and even the homeschool group. My oldest is in Boy Scouts but we have warned him that he needs to get serious about reaching his goals or we will have to let it go, because it's too much of a sacrifice for our whole family if he isn't going to put in the time to make it a worthwhile sacrifice. He takes piano and plays in the church band with DH. He walks to his lesson and gets a ride to rehearsal, so that doesn't cut into my time with the other kids, which is nice, plus those events are after 4. We host a small group at our home on Friday evenings.
Now, how to structure our days. I have three school-age children and two little ones, both with special needs requiring therapy sessions in addition to cuddles, food, and help with personal care. And lots of doctor/ specialist appointments. I'm trying to schedule their appts. in the afternoon like every article ever written on how to homeschool and stay sane suggests, but do you know how impossible that can be? They have therapy every Wednesday morning at 8:30 in our home, so Wednesdays need to be a light school day. The baby is still being adopted, so I have lots of appointments for that, but just in general, on days we are home all day, how do I do this? Because what I've been doing since late August isn't working.
7th Grader is doing:
Apologia General
Life of Fred
Lightning Lit 7 + All-in-One English
20th Century History
5th Grader is doing:
Apologia Swimming Creatures
Life of Fred
LLATL Purple
20th Century History
2nd Grader is doing:
Apologia Swimming
Life of Fred/ CLE Math
A Hodgepodge of things for LA - see below.
Beautiful Feet Early American Primary
I think I need to set a timer during his LA for a few days. It sounds like a lot, but he is enjoying it and I think he needs all of this. We just started the Bible Reader from MFW 1st. We are working through the blue spiral notebook and the Bible Reader, but not the workbook pages or the yellow notebook or any of the Bible and science from the TM. He does copywork and memorization from the Primary Language Lessons, but it's very bite-sized. He is also doing LA 2 from CLE with me right by his side, reading every question and writing his answers occasionally (usually only if we are doing school in the afternoon when he's less eager.)
So if I went by the rule of thumb for each grade level, subtracting where I've combined children, that's ten hours a day of school! But I have other stuff to do, you know? How do people with more children do it? Please tell me how you might structure your days if my kids were yours. And when to clean and fold laundry and make dinner and exercise and grocery shop. I'm a tad overwhelmed at the task of this and I need to brainstorm. There are so many ideas bouncing around in my head, like a morning meeting with each kid, then sending them on their way... I just don't know. They all seem to need hand-holding and re-directing, and then the toddler or baby or phone or laundry buzzer. I'm a bit overwhelmed.
Oh, as for the DH. He's gone a lot, and when he's home he doesn't come in the door at the same time every night and weekends we like to keep free from housework so we can go exploring, then Sundays are for church and visiting or resting.
Where did you get the one hour per grade level idea?
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According to post #16 she said the mom is a fun mom and they travel a lot.
post 21, not 16.
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No, she didn't say they travel a lot. She said the mother travels a lot, leaving the kids at home unsupervised during the day, or hanging out at friends' houses. That is hugely different than a family traveling together. Not even close to the same thing. The kids are not having new experiences, being exposed to the world, or seeing new places. They are not going anywhere.
According to post #16 she said the mom is a fun mom and they travel a lot.
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Does that mean it's been removed? With no explanation?
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I'm thinking the OP really needs to just let it go. She may not like the way the kids are being educated but really, if there is no actual abuse going on, calling CPS will traumatize these kids and their parents way more than not reading at the level that they "should" be at.
The kids are clean, cared for, the OP says they travel a lot, are in art co-op type classes, maybe the parents are unschoolers but haven't accepted that about themselves. I know famiies like this. One in particular that I know has 5 kids kids and NONE of them were at the level, academically, where "they" say they should be yet the oldest 3 are all productive adults. 2 own their own houses, all 3 own their own cars, one is married, etc. The 2 still at home have caught up. The family did travel a lot, moved a lot, did a lot of sport oriented activities.
Is that the way "I" would educate my kids? No. Does that mean I should have butted in and called CPS? NO!!!
If you have talked the parents (there are two parents that should be involved in this, not just one) and told them your concerns but don't see any changes, then maybe you should just MYOB and worry about your own kids.
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I've read through this and a couple things stick out for me.
1. why isn't that dad being in on any meetings of concern? These kids do have two parents, not just one, so if you're meetng and talking with one, why not both?
2. Could the kids have LD's?
3. This exact question gets asked about twice a year and it always turns into a debate.
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Thanks for all these suggestions. This actually sounds like something I could give her high school credits for if she does it long enough. Any clue what I would call it?
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ETA: Oops, I think my suggestions would be too easy for high school! But the Cinderella stories could be part of a unit.
That's ok. We school year round so this would be a summer thing anyway. High school won't start till August. :-)
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My 14 yo loves fairy tales so I'm trying to come up with something she can do besides just reading them.
I was thinking of having her read original fairy tales, then the modern ones, or watch the movies, like Disney. And write something, maybe different endings? Modern endings? Comparing the originals with newer versions?
My brain is half dead because we are decluttering our house and cleaning and getting ready to put it up for sale but school must go on!
If anyone knows of any resources, I'd appreciate it.
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You were way nicer than I would have been!
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I don't understand why they would make an arcade for adults? Really? I mean I'm not the most mature 42 yo on the planet but that seems a little bizarre to me.
ETA: I wasn't all that into arcades as a kid either so maybe that;s why it seems weird. lol
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I can't even imagine.
Praying for you!
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To try some of their GF items for DD12. The prices for their new GF line are FANTASTIC, but I hesitate to buy again after today - they are only there for a "limited time", and I do not want DD to like them, get used to them, and then WHAM! - they pull them from the shelves.
Honestly, I don't see the fuss other than that. The produce prices weren't great, they only carry apples by the bag (and they are smaller apples at that), and when I got excited to see mozzarella sticks in the dairy section for $1.99/pack, I looked more closely to realize that of course they cost less - there are only 12 sticks in the pack :( They had great prices on chips, so we'll see if we like those, but they weren't much less than our regular grocery store carries them on sale (and there is ALWAYS a bogo deal on some brand of chips at the regular grocer's).
I'll go back for GF items, but I'm not sure I'll go back for anything else. Am I the only one who doesn't quite get the appeal?
I have been there about 4 times and I don't get the appeal of it either.
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We have one who would LOVE to sleep on our bed. He's an 85 lb German Shepherd and belongs to our 17 year old.
I used to let him sneak up on the bed from time to time when dh isn't home. I stopped doing that because it gets him into trouble (He just gets shooed off.) when dh IS home. I let him sleep on the sofa during the day and evening though, often curled up next to me while I read etc. He's so very sweet and snuggly. Who knew German Shepherds were such cuddlers? :001_wub:
At night, he sleeps on a dog bed in ds's room instead, and occasionally sneaks into our son's bed. (DS needs a bigger bed, I guess. :tongue_smilie: )
I used to have a Rottweiler mix (pre-kid days!) and my dh wouldn't let her sleep or even get on the bed. But when he would leave early in the am to go to work, I'd stay in bed, and as soon as he was out the door, up she came. :-) It was our secret and she never did it when he was there. ;-)
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I think there are at least 4 of us in this thread with dachshunds!
5 now. :-)
We have 5 dogs and 3 cats. 2 cats are independent and only want food from us. One thinks he is a dog and meows ALL the time for various reason, but he doesn't sleep with anyo ne.
Our 98 lb border collie mix sleeps on the floor.
Our coon hound would love to sleep on a bed and used to, curled up in a ball. Now she sleeps on her own blankets and if somebody forgets to give them to her she paces and whines.
Our terrier mix sleeps on a bed, under the bed, wherever she chooses that night.
Our weenie dog sleeps with my 18 yo dd, under the covers, behind her legs, or his butt in her face. lol
My Chihuahua sleeps with me.
What to do if a family is not teaching their children
in General Education Discussion Board
Posted
I don't think anyone here thinks education is not important. I actually do support unschooling even though I don't do it. I think it's the parents rights to decide how to raise their own kids as they see fit, as long as there is no abuse or true neglect going on.
So do you think that getting CPS involved (OP HAS said she would call as a last resort), is a reasonable thing to do?