[article: College Board]

As far as the pace of the course, in some it may not matter, but in my opinion it does matter in regards to math.  If a student is placing out of Calc I, for example, then they would go directly into Calc II.  If it took them a year or longer to learn Calc I, it's possible that when they enter Calc II that they will find the pace too fast to keep up.   Obviously that's not the case for the majority of students but I am using it as an example.  If a student took 8 AP courses, they will likely handle the content of the college courses just fine, but they might be thrown by the volume of work (not busy work) and the pace of the learning and testing.  This is just my opinion.  : )  

 

I understand what you are saying about how some rigorous courses necessarily might take longer to complete due to the depth of learning, but this is AP that we're talking about which I doubt anyone would claim is taught at greater depth that the comparable college course.  As has been said, the students are taught to the test and I think it would be the rare class in which the teacher goes into great depth on anything which isn't covered on that exam.  College professors can be notorious for this.  : )  Students are expected to learn the material by reading the texts.  IMO one is high school level teaching/learning and the other is more independent college level learning

[article: College Board]

Wapiti I agree that pace does not reflect the level of content.  IMO it does reflect the level of rigor.

[article: College Board]

Considering that MIT permits students with 4's or 5's on the AP Calc BC exam to go directly into vector and multivariable calculus seems to indicate that MIT feels that the AP Calculus BC is a college level course.  Kids with 4's and 5's on the BC exam must have had success going directly into the vector and multivariable class because MIT would not have this policy otherwise.

 

They also allow students who took DE at CCs to place out of those courses as well.

[article: College Board]

I'm getting confused  :tongue_smilie: but UR has a different page describing AP credit, if that is what you were looking for.

 

My fault.  I should have quoted Creekland's post I was referring to about UR not allowing any credit for DE courses.   Either this is old info, or new info, or I've got the wrong end of the stick.  lol

[article: College Board]

This is definitely an example of "know your target college" if you want credit to transfer.  At my oldest and youngest's colleges either AP or DE would give credit if the score/grade were high enough.  At middle son's college only AP gives credit (for some courses) - none for DE.

 

At our state schools including Pitt and Penn St, either will give credit.

 

 

Sixteen year olds can definitely be ready for college level classwork IME.  It all depends on their academic talent and their foundation.  My 16 year old was leading the study groups in his cc classes (at the college) and also getting 5s on his AP tests.  At his college he's only marred his 4.0 GPA by one A- and that's with taking the tough "weeder" courses for pre-med (including Orgo).  He's not the norm for our area, but he's hardly abnormal at his college.

 

And there could be others like him in our area if our ps foundation were better.  He wasn't all that much "smarter" than his "smart" peers growing up.

 

 

 

APs are generally equivalent to college level work for 101 classes at less selective schools from what I've seen via returning students.  If one takes the AP course and gets a 4 or 5, they are often bored in those equivalent classes as there is rarely anything new.  At more selective schools, the AP level is often the foundation that is expected before the 101 class at least for "usual" classes (Calc, Bio, Chem).  Skipping it and heading into the next class can be problematic as not all the material was covered.  I see it as a good thing that more colleges are doing placement tests.  This will ultimately help ALL the students figure out where they fit in rather than guessing.

 

One of the reasons that I don't think APs are generally college level work is that while the content may be equivalent, the student is usually taking twice as long to learn the material.  There are exceptions, like taking Calculus BC in one year without having taken calculus AB previously, and there may be some high schools which offer the AP courses in half year block scheduling, but other than that, actual college courses move twice as fast.   The pacing does make a difference and really surprises (not pleasantly) some students, who had multiple AP classes, once they get to college.

 

I thoroughly agree about placement tests being the best way to place students appropriately.

[article: College Board]

Creekland is this old info?  http://www.rochester.edu/college/CCAS/AdviserHandbook/TransferCrdt.html

 

Courses taken while a student was in high school which were sponsored by a college but were taught in the high school are not approved for transfer credit. However, students enrolled in college coursework on a college campus are eligible to receive transfer credit assuming the courses are completed with a grade of C or better and are approved. Students who believe their situations warrant an exception should always speak with a CCAS adviser. A special petition form is available for coursework taught in the high school. It requires a comprehensive letter of support from the appropriate faculty member. The final decision then is made by the Dean of the College.

 

It may be that this is a new policy and wasn't in effect when your son entered.  There's more info in the link about needing departmental approval and all of that.

[AP tests? Community College courses? When?]

Oh I missed that.  Yes I agree that it likely won't shorten the time unless the student is transferring to an in-state public which has an arrangement with the CC regarding  accepting the credits. And even then the student has to be diligent about making sure that pre-reqs are fulfilled in math and other areas as well.   I also think that the four year plan offers so many more opportunities with regards to research and internships that I don't see the reason to shorten the time unless it's an absolute necessity financially.

[AP tests? Community College courses? When?]

Yes that's true.  But having learned C++ say or JAVA instead of Python isn't going to in any way hamper a CS student. The languages are different, but the logic and problem solving when programing are the same.  Worst case scenario is that the student finds that they need to re-take a course because it is in a different language.  IMO that's still not a reason not to take CS courses at a CC.  Why would anyone hold back a student who is ready willing and able?  There are of course some for whom DE classes would not be the best choice, but I'm not speaking of those situations.

[AP tests? Community College courses? When?]

Computer science is a field in which there are so many areas to explore.   Many students arrive at college with a strong background just having learned things on their own without the benefit of any courses.  College is only four years.  You can only fit in so many courses into those four years.  If placing out of a course allows you to take other more advanced courses, then I can't see the downside.  With computer science, from what I've read, as the knowledge base changes so incredibly quickly it's not just about what you know, but how quickly you can learn new material to keep up with the ever changing technology.  I really doubt that any small amount of content missed in intro courses is going to severely impact a CS major. 

 

Dd's advisor is a professor in her major.  I have gratefully relinquished my role of advising!  

[AP tests? Community College courses? When?]

Oh, I did not make myself clear. I was under the impression that the OP was planning to have her student take the first year classes in his major at the CC instead of the courses offered at his terminal university.

Having the student take the standard courses in his major at a CC so that he places into an advanced version of that course at the university is a good thing (provided the final institution does offer a more rigorous course into which to place, which is not always the case.). I was thinking she wanted her student to take the course at the CC so that he did not have to take it at the university.

 

2nd ETA: Also, the OP wrote about classes at CC, not at a 4 year school that offers the major. That also is different, as the course level will most likely be different.

 

ETA: To clarify: DD placed into the honors version of Physics I. She did not skip any course in the sequence for majors; she is simply beginning the sequence with the most rigorous section that is offered. A class that is pretty much identical as the one she has taken before (same textbook) is the default Physics I class for the sequence.

 

Yes I realized afterward that you were likely making the distinction between CC classes and classes taken at a different 4 year school.  Really the quality of CC courses varies so much as do the courses offered at 4-year schools.  I can think of several states where the CC course content is exactly the same as that offered at the state flagship university.  As was mentioned, transfer students transferring from the CC do not need to repeat any of their courses and the courses they took are exactly the same as the high school DE students took.  No different. 

 

I don't see the difference between taking a CC class to be able to place out of the same one at the 4 year versus taking it to place into a more rigorous honors course.  Which way is best for a particular student is usually decided between the student and their advisor.  I know that your situation is different as your daughter's major is your field as well and she has the benefit of your knowledge and experience.  

 

In the situation of a computer science major, I can see no reason for them not to take the CC classes as long as they are up to the academics and able to work independently.  How those courses will affect their course selection when they arrive at college will likely be discussed with their advisor.  None of the knowldge and skills gained will be lost regardless if they retake the class, place out of it, or get credit for it.

 

[article: College Board]

I know little about AP classes, but what I do know is that if an advanced student doesn't have the opportunity to home school, and their school won't allow them to advance in subjects due to their age or grade level, then they likely won't be learning at their appropriate level.   Of course it depends on what the school offers as an alternative.  Homeschoolers can study at home at a level more rigorous than AP and, in my opinion, actual college courses are even better for those who need the academic challenge and are emotionally mature enough and would thrive in the social atmosphere. 
 

[article: College Board]

Honestly I don't think we'll ever know how rare it is or not.  As such a miniscule percent of high school students take DE courses, it's hard to say how many would benefit as it's available to relatively few.  I agree about AP not always being college level work.  Perhaps seldom.

[article: College Board]

The problem with high schools prohibiting 9th and 10th grades from taking AP courses is that while it may not be appropriate placement for most in their grades, it would be the best placement for some.  Should schools eliminate sped because the majority of students wouldn't benefit from it?  IMO schools should be flexible (and in the above example it does allow for unusual circumstances) in what is offered to advanced kids and they should be diligent in separating the truly advanced and motivated from the ones being pushed onward by their parents.  As much as I am not in favor of standardized tests in general, in this instance a baseline score could help to give the school some concrete reason why Little Johnny doesn't belong in the AP class in 9th grade despite the parents' insistence that he does. 

[AP tests? Community College courses? When?]

Regentrude I'm confused.  Your daughter is majoring in physics - right?  So she has not only audited (or taken) a lower level physics course, but taken the Physics I and II courses for scientists, mathematicians and engineers (and maybe modern physics as well).  Because of her having taken these courses, she placed into an advanced honors course at her college.  (The college course she's in moves so quickly precisely because most likely the majority of students in it have already had some college level physics.)  Why wouldn't you recommend this same path for others?  To me it would be almost neglectful to prohibit an advanced high school student from taking college classes in the areas of his or her particular interests.  

 

All of that to say that I highly recommend dual enrollment courses on a college campus for the academics and the total experience.  You can opt to do all DE or a combination of DE and AP or all AP or neither.  For me it would depend on what's best for the particular student.  No regrets with our decision not to do AP courses!  DE would be great especially for computer science courses IMO.  Your son can always choose to repeat any that he doesn't feel he mastered in DE. 

[article: College Board]

I think they all provide a placement test for Calc (not sure if they all offer credit or just placement).  I think they all do placement for languages too.

 

I've yet to see a placement test for Bio/Chem, etc, but perhaps some have them.

 

My guy submitted a writing response to get placed into his writing course.  I'm not sure if that was required or just recommended.

 

As Princeton is considered to have a top math program, I can use them as an example.  From their website regarding chemistry placement.

 

Advanced Placement

A student who received an Advanced Placement Examination score of 4 qualifies for one unit of advanced placement and is eligible to take CHM 215 Advanced General Chemistry-Honors. A student who received an Advanced Placement Examination score of 5 qualifies for two units of advanced placement and is eligible to take CHM 301 or 303. One term of advanced placement satisfies the B.S.E. chemistry requirement.

A departmental placement examination is given during Freshman Orientation Week for students who did not have an opportunity to take the Chemistry Advanced Placement Exam.

 

Most highly selective colleges do not give any credit for work done in high school.  Some do.  But placement beyond what they've already learned is what most students want anyway.

[article: College Board]

Creekland, some highly selective schools provide a placement test for students who have completed some calculus in high school.  This is given to students who took AP or dual enrolled in college courses or those who feel they've covered the course material sufficiently.  Those who pass the placement test do not need to repeat what they've already learned.  Dd has no need to re-take Calc I, II or III. Some colleges and universities do provide extremely rigorous theoretical versions of the regular calculus courses, but even then few students choose that path as opposed to moving onto upper level math classes.  Placement tests are available for the sciences, languages and other subject areas as well.

[article: College Board]

I've read that SAT IIs are preferred over AP tests simply because not all students take AP classes and this is a way to compare high school students, across the board, in regards to high school level work.   I agree though that colleges should be able to accept AP test results in lieu of SAT IIs. 

[article: College Board]

Regarding dual enrollment, in my opinion there is nothing like taking actual college classes on a college campus as excellent preparation for college readiness at the next level.   I've also wondered what percentage of high school students take advantage of DE and while this study I'm referencing is more from the point of view of how many 2 and 4 year institutions offer dual enrollment, some of the stats within can give us a pretty good idea.

 

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2013/2013002.pdf

 

This is the part of the study which is pertinent to the percent of students taking DE classes.

 

Selected Findings

This section presents selected findings on dual enrollment programs and courses at 2-year and 4-year Title IV eligible degree-granting postsecondary institutions for the 12-month 2010–11 academic year.

 

• During the 12-month 2010–11 academic year, 53 percent of all institutions reported high school students took courses for college credit within or outside of dual enrollment programs (table 1).

 

5 Forty-six percent of all institutions reported that high school students took courses for college credit within a dual enrollment program, and 28 percent of institutions reported that high school students took courses for college credit outside a dual enrollment program. Institutions reported that approximately 1,277,100 high school students took courses for college credit within a dual enrollment program and approximately 136,400 high school students took courses for college credit outside a dual enrollment program during the 12-month 2010–11 academic year. Enrollments reported are unduplicated counts of students.

 

6 • Among institutions with a dual enrollment program, 83 percent reported courses within the program were taught at the college campus, 64 percent reported courses were taught at the high school campus, and 48 percent reported courses were taught through distance education (table 2).

 

7 • Among institutions with dual enrollment programs that had at least some instruction offered on high school campuses, 45 percent reported courses taught by both high school and college instructors, 34 percent reported high school instructors only, and 21 percent reported college instructors only (table 3).

 

•  Eighty-seven percent of institutions that reported high school instructors taught courses within the dual enrollment program(s) indicated that the instructors’ minimum qualifications were the same as those required for college instructors (table 4).

 

•Forty-four percent of institutions reported that the typical pattern of high school enrollments in the dual enrollment program was one course per academic term, 18 percent reported that they typical pattern of high school enrollments in the dual enrollment programs was two courses per academic term, and 3 percent reported that the typical pattern of high school enrollments in the dual enrollment program was three or more courses per academic term (table 5).

 

•  Ninety-five percent of institutions with dual enrollment programs awarded college credit for courses immediately after course completion, while 4 percent awarded college credit or courses upon students’ enrollment at the institution after high school graduation (table 6).

 

•  Most institutions reported that high school students in grades 11 and 12 were eligible to take courses within the dual enrollment programs (91 and 97 percent, respectively) (table 7). Forty percent of institutions reported eligibility for high school students in grade 10, and 25 percent reported eligibility for high school students in grade 9.

 

•  Sixty percent of institutions reported that a minimum high school grade point average (GPA) was required in order to participate in the dual enrollment program (table 8). Other academic eligibility requirements reported by institutions included passing a college placement test (45 percent), a minimum score on a standardized test (43 percent), or a letter of recommendation (41 percent).

 

According to NCES http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=65 the total number of high school students in 2010 was approximately 54.9 million. So the percent of those taking DE, whether on a college campus or in high school was approximately 2.3%.  Only 3 percent of the institutions reported that the students were typically taking 3 or more college courses.  These numbers have likely increased since 2010, but this is what I could find.

 

Above I didn't add in those taking college courses outside of a dual enrollment program, so including those students the percent would be approx. 2.57% of high school students taking a college course either on the college campus or within a high school.

 

[Where does your freshmen class come from?]

11 hours 24 minutes... ;)

 

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=driving%20time%20Texarkana%20to%20El%20Paso

 

Farther down on that page someone else said 11 hours 47 minutes, but I didn't click on any links.

 

They must know a faster route than Mapquest or drive over the speed limits.  lol   Mapquest shows two routes.  One is 12 hr 10min and the other 13hr 23min.  : )    But obviously the actual travel time would be considerably longer assuming breaks in driving.

 

[Where does your freshmen class come from?]

Texarkana to El Paso is 816 miles.   What does it show for travel time?

[Where does your freshmen class come from?]

Creekland Texas is 773 miles wide by 790 miles long.    Even with their higher speed limits, you can drive 12 hours and still remain in-state.  California too, but I would imagine that a third of that time could be spent just getting through LA.  lol  I'm sure most driving long distance, other than for tourism, would try to avoid that area.

[New World University Rankings]

Laura if it does exist it's a well kept secret lol   Why?  I don't know.   US News ranks graduate programs, but not undergraduate.  And while it would seem that the strength of a graduate program should indicate a good undergraduate program, from what I hear that's not always true.  Some universities really gear their research opportunities towards the graduate students and the undergraduates aren't given nearly the attention.  But this would vary by major even within a university.  So unless you know the questions to ask and have spoken with the dept chair or someone else knowledgeable, it's hard to compare undergraduate programs.  All of the researching would also be very time consuming.  While some consider rankings little more than trivia, I think they make it easier as a place from which to start the search.

[New World University Rankings]

I know I'm not alone in wishing that one of the major college rankings would start providing information on undergraduate majors at each of the universities and colleges.  The rankings on major provided now are for graduate programs.  Would love to have one all inclusive for undergraduate programs. 

[5 or 6 classes per year in high school?]

I don't think the problem is the number of classes, it's how much time the online AP classes are taking and how stressful she's finding them to be.  It sounds like the academic level is right, just not the method.  Could she drop down to one or two of those online classes and take the dropped ones, or others, at the community college?  The pace for the semester college classes is fast, but I would guess that there's much less "wasted time" than with the online AP classes.   If she's able to enroll, there might be a class she'd like to take even this semester with a later start date.  Or she could take just one or two next semester to ediease the transition for next year.   If she's a student who studies well on her own, then she may find that studying one or two of the AP subjects on her own would suit her better than keeping to the class schedule with homework, assignments and tests.  Just a thought.  Some of this may have already been answered as I haven't read through the whole thread, so my apologies if it has.

[Another "help with a 5yo birthday gift" thread]

How about something for outside like a sand digger.  They have ones which are stationary and swivel and others with wheels.  Would need to be supervised so digging doesn't happen in flower beds and all.  Maybe along with that a large sandbox area if you have room in your yard.  Add in a few castle block shaped molds and he could do some of his city planning outside.