[Charlotte Mason Math]

21 hours ago, gradchica said:

There’s a level of basic understanding (arithmetic) that isn’t very fun or terribly interesting in itself but is the necessary gateway to entering into the beauty of investigating the relationship between these numbers and operations and how they interact when used in different ways. 
 

The only thing that has made math interesting to my kids is mastery and the ability to move on to and actually understand the “cool” concepts, plus an attitude of wonder in my part.

There is an element of balance in terms of understanding concepts and practicing procedures, which is not always interesting. They build on each other. One of the biggest benefits to switching to a more defined curriculum was that the practice problems were specifically chosen to promote better conceptual understanding and help that cycle of concepts and confidence in procedures keep going.  This was something we couldn’t easily do on our own, with the Waldorf approach of practice through doing a couple of questions that the teacher makes up, every day. That said, there will always be areas where you have to try different ways than what a book uses to allow you child to grasp the idea, and for that, it really helps to understand what your method is trying to teach.  
I completely agree that having an attitude of wonder and interest helps a lot. 

[Charlotte Mason Math]

On 2/12/2021 at 3:44 PM, katemm said:

This resonates for sure. And up until a month ago I have been all-in on Waldorf education,

We’ve found that history, social studies, and art from a Waldorf approach have worked really well, as well as the block schedule for most topics.  The main thing that didn’t, really, was math, partly due to the block schedule, and also because it seemed to leave out all the really cool stuff, focusing on basic arithmetic and nothing else. @katemmI’d love to hear more about what you like about math and want to communicate about math, similar to what @Not_a_Number was asking.  I have learned new ways to understand math through helping my kids (and going through their books on my own). I definitely think you can increase your own understanding and enjoyment. I couldn’t see any samples of Wild math, and I don’t really know anything about that one, though I find the idea intriguing. Do you find the lessons in it inspiring to you?

[Charlotte Mason Math]

On 2/9/2021 at 9:37 PM, katemm said:

From what I've read I love the way Math is talked about in Charlotte Mason. Beauty, awe-inspiring, discovering God in his created order... The way a child is led to discover answers for himself, treated as capable to be able to grasp concepts, not to have things dulled down or to give him prodding, hints, leading, or telling him the correct answer.

I love this description as well, and I always want my children to be inspired by math!  I had a look at the SCM books, and they remind me of the Waldorf approach to math in some ways, such as the emphasis on the physical world, not wanting to move to abstraction too quickly, and a wonder-based approach. 

My family's experience with Waldorf math with my oldest was that by Gr. 4, she was really bored, and she had decided that she was not really a math person.  We have kept a Waldorf approach for many other subjects, and continued Waldorf geometry, but for the rest of the math curriculum we switched to a modern conceptual approach and have used that with the younger two as well, so far.  The switch renewed my daughter's interest and confidence in math, and I found that she was able to see a lot more of the beauty and awe with the more comprehensive and creative math curriculum.  I think there have been a number of advances in math thinking and teaching since the early 1900's, and that although I respect the innovative thinking of Mason and Steiner, I don't think it benefits children to stick to it too rigidly.  

Finding a good conceptual curriculum might allow you to achieve more of your goals in math for your children that what the SCM books look likely to do, after looking at Gr. 1 and Gr. 3.  This could also give you a chance to experience the beauty of math yourself, which really helps to be able to pass it on, in my opinion. 

[Prime Climb game]

18 hours ago, Moncha said:

My son (and other kiddo that I homeschool) (3rd & 1st grade)  enjoy Sums in Space. It's addition and subtraction and it has a cooperative aspect where you try to get everyone to the spaceship before blast off. 

Thanks for the idea! We like cooperative games.

[Prime Climb game]

10 hours ago, Jackie said:

Prime Climb was fine, but definitely a “school time” game for us. It was never chosen for fun. It basically plays like the game Sorry, but with more math.

Sorry was one of the board games my family had when I was a kid, not a favourite. Thanks for telling me about this.  Zeus on the loose sounds like a better fit, I think. 

[Best conceptual math games]

5 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hey, cool! How does she know? Number line exercises from somewhere?

I modeled negatives as “debt” with DD8. It worked well... I recommend 🙂 

I’m not sure, and she said she heard about it somewhere but doesn’t remember where.  She has done a little bit with number lines in BA 2A, and her older sister had a unit on integers a few months ago.  Pleasant surprise, anyway! 😀

I think the debt model would work, I will try that, thanks! 
 

You wouldn’t even have to stack the deck, you could add a step (depending on age/skill) of choosing the largest number and moving it to the left of the other number. 

[Best conceptual math games]

12 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, I would imagine that you'd have about half of them be negative 😉 . Slightly less than half due to the zeroes. 

I think you could stack the decks a bit so that if it's left minus right, the left deck has slightly bigger cards? 

That is exactly what happened, as you would expect. But, I actually found that my youngest can also calculate negative answers to subtraction questions, though we haven’t covered that with her  at all. And that it gives practice at comparing negative numbers.

You could absolutely stack the deck if you just wanted to do positive subtraction practice.

[Best conceptual math games]

22 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, that's a great idea. That's actually kind of my older girl wound up learning negatives! We would put a question mark for questions that were "less than 0," just to remind her about the order. Soon, she couldn't wait to find out what all those mysterious question marks were. 

Oooh. Or always take the red from the black?? Pull from two decks of different colors? 

We tried subtracting in order, and there are a lot that turn out less than 0.  We played using negative numbers, but if you didn’t, you would have a lot of less than 0 ties.  You could do it by colour, too, with 2 decks. That could be easier for some. 

[Best conceptual math games]

17 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't think the distance model of number is nearly as natural for people. 

Did you come across kids in your classes that did find the distance/continuous model more intuitive? Some of my kids seemed to find it quite useful, though I couldn’t say it was their primary model. 

I agree that 6 tens and 3 ones is the definition of 63 in base 10.  Nonetheless there’s still another level to the connection to the physical world for me that I don’t think I can explain on a board. 😕 

[Best conceptual math games]

22 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

How did your "Go Fish for Ten" work? Any links to instructions? I'm going to try to compile all the ideas in the top post with instructions included. 

I couldn’t find a link, but this is what we did: 

Using a full deck of shuffled Tiny Polka Dots cards, we dealt five cards to each player. The rest go in a fishpond spread out pile in the centre. In turn, each player asks for the number that will make 10 with what they want to match, from a specific player. If they get it, they can put it down as a pair and ask again. If the other player doesn’t have the card (any version of it) then the first player gets to Go Fish and draw a card from the pond, and their turn is over. If someone runs out, they can draw 2 new cards from the pond and keep going. Most pairs (highest stack) wins.

[Best conceptual math games]

18 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I actually kind of disagree with that, believe it or not. I don't think it's a great idea to think of 63 as anything other than 6 tens and 3 ones. it muddles your thinking. 

By definition, it's 6 tens and 3 ones. Finished, complete, end of story. 

I think there are other ways to think of these numbers, though. At work, a number is nearly always a dimension, a speed, a flow rate, and it has a very specific connection to the physical world. Our different ideas about the importance of this probably illustrates the gap between pure and applied math, but kids who like the applied side have to translate all the time between the two. 

[Best conceptual math games]

8 hours ago, Xahm said:

We got our version of Go Fish for Ten from Addition Facts that Stick.

We did this too and then used the Tiny Polka Dot cards to give different representations of the numbers. Has anyone used the games from Subtraction facts that stick?

[Best conceptual math games]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

that works less well in places other than where we live, lol.

Too difficult for us, hardly any numbered streets to be found in our city!

[Best conceptual math games]

20 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I've done "go down to zero" Don't Break the Bank -- start at 100, lose if you get under 100. That uses subtraction and shows how it works with place value. And also, betting in blackjack uses very natural subtraction -- when you lose money, it gets taken away from your stack! 

But I really don't like "undirected" subtraction games like Subtraction War. 3-8 is not 8-3 😛 .

Thanks for the subtraction Break the Bank idea, I will try that!  I used your simplified method as well today with just counters for 10s and ones, and that was easier and more fun that the grid from Math for Love, for the kids I played it with. 
Maybe you could get around the problem with subtraction war by saying you must subtract in the order they are placed in.  With younger kids, a question like 3-8 could be “less than zero” where highest result wins, and with older they could get negative numbers. 

[Prime Climb game]

3 hours ago, Lecka said:

 

Candyland can still have counting spaces, and more than/less than.  

 

There are a lot of games, fortunately, that have some amount of math in them.    We played Azul today, which has a bit of adding, as well as scoring, and the idea that you get more points if you put the tiles in a rectangle (though Scrabble-style rather than multiplication).

[Best conceptual math games]

On 2/5/2021 at 7:44 PM, Not_a_Number said:

Don't Break the Bank with place value poker chips 

Do you make each number in the grid and then combine them, rather than just adding on paper in a stack? 

[Best conceptual math games]

I tried Nim 12 and don’t Break the Bank this evening. Nim was the one my kids found the most fun, though both worked.  I’m not sure that kids would necessarily make the connection from Nim to multiplication, though. Does it take a few times, or do you make the connection explicit?  

My favourite adding game is cribbage, I played that a lot with my grandparents when I was a kid.

Does anyone have subtracting or division games?  The division game in BA 3c is pretty good.  There is a honeycomb grid with lots of numbers, you draw a playing card (2-9) and divide the number on the grid where your meeple stands by the value on the card.  You move the meeple the remainder, trying to be the first to cross the board. There is some strategy in not choosing a route that lands you on 72 or another one with a lot of factors. 

[Prime Climb game]

4 hours ago, kirstenhill said:

I have had my eyes on Proof, but haven't gotten it

This looks like it could be fun, though it is undisguised math practice.  

For younger kids 3-6, Tiny Polka Dot has a number of different card games in it, which my kids enjoyed, and sometimes would take out on their own. 

[Prime Climb game]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Maybe kids like it better in the context of a math class! Do you do the wars where you get to take LOTS of cards at once? I feel like that really made the game for my kids. 

How did your kids like Blockout? 

We do tie breakers where you get to take all the cards in play at that time, but it doesn’t happen often that there is a tie. My kids like war better than math questions on a sheet, and if there were more kids to play it they probably would like it better.  I only tried blockout with my middle kid, and he liked it & I definitely think it increased his understanding. We played in cooperative mode.  I’ll probably try the same with my youngest soon.  I asked her at the dinner table and she does know what multiplication means, after all. 

[Prime Climb game]

4 hours ago, Lecka said:

 

Zeus on the Loose — K/1st I think?  Maybe more on the 1st side?  

 

On the GameSmith website they gave it an 8+ rating, so it’s interesting that it works better for younger kids. Thanks!

[Prime Climb game]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

How do you play Addition War? We play with normal cards (taking out the face cards), so they can count to add if they need to.

I think we play it the same, a normal deck with faces (and aces) removed, and then each person turn over two card from their deck, adds it, highest sum takes all. 

 

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

What do you mean about not being solid with the concept?

Not realizing that 4x7 is 4 sets of 7 and 7 sets of 4, as an example.   We haven’t really talked about or done examples of multiplication with my youngest much yet.  I think I’d actually just play Prime Climb (if I buy it) with her on her own, with adding/subtracting.  She’d get upset if my other two bumped her off her circle, and they’d want to use all operations.  I think my question is whether you think drill without understanding is harmful or just pointless, but really I’m just wondering because I’m not planning to do that. The main risk might be boredom, which would bring us back around to how to make math games fun.   
 

We have done blockout, but not blackjack, break the bank or Nim. I’ll look those up. Thanks!

[Prime Climb game]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

We also love math and we like games, but we’ve gotten the most bang for our buck out of games not designed as “math games.”

Do you mean gaming bang for your buck, or math practice?  It is a problem about math games not necessarily being super fun.  My kids see addition war that way too, they will play it with me and they are fine, but they wouldn’t choose it if I didn’t pull it out.  
 

Kingdomino has some multiplying practice when scoring.  My kids like that one. 

[Prime Climb game]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

but I wouldn’t play it with a kid who’s still working on their models of the operations.

Do you think it would set them back if they were not solid with the concept, or just not be much fun or pointless?

[Prime Climb game]

4 hours ago, wendyroo said:

So I play with each child separately at their skill level.

I thought this might be a possibility, also with their playing style because some kids are more competitive. 

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

 

Zeus on the Loose had a sweet spot.

 

I will look this one up since my kids love Greek myths, what ages did it work well for?

[Prime Climb game]

9 hours ago, 4atHome said:

Probably 8 or 9 yrs old is a good starting age.

I have a 12, 9 and 7 year old, so that should work.  Thanks for the instructions! You can use adding, as you thought.  My youngest will not like the bumping aspect of it.